Controversial General Political Discussion
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I dont live in lala land. Would it be the best for both parties? Yeah an in an ideal world both parties would be allowed to live anywhere in between the Jordan river and Mediterranean Sea. Palestinians could be allowed back into their ancestral homes, Jews could live in a region of cultural significance like the west bank
but that is not reality nor should we force it to be. If the dissolution of Yugoslavia has taught us anything is that when there’s huge ethnic tensions is best to split apart
but that is not reality nor should we force it to be. If the dissolution of Yugoslavia has taught us anything is that when there’s huge ethnic tensions is best to split apart
All the leaks speaking about the ceasefire so far talk about a retreat of Israel towards "non-populated areas" of Gaza in the first phase and a hostage exchange.
I realize how pro-Israel this cabinet is, and it will probably show it more in recognition of settlements in the West Bank later on. But for now, it will claim it got a ceasefire done while Biden didn't, and they will be correct.
I doubt a "total Israeli victory" would have been opposed by the current administration either way. All their actions speak otherwise.
I realize how pro-Israel this cabinet is, and it will probably show it more in recognition of settlements in the West Bank later on. But for now, it will claim it got a ceasefire done while Biden didn't, and they will be correct.
I doubt a "total Israeli victory" would have been opposed by the current administration either way. All their actions speak otherwise.
And yet. Both parties will have to agree with it. It's the only solution.
Nobody is saying that it will be a peace of cake, it will be hardcore, but..... it's the only way peace can really happen at the end of the day.
Yes you do. You live in dreamland at the moment.
What I'm showing you is the REALISTIC way to create peace following basic sociological principle, not your idealistic one.
In this case, the world need to keep the country together. This is not something that we must let only to those party but a COLLECTIVE responsibility.
Links need to be created between the nations, it can be as quick as two generations.
We are not talking about a couple relationship here or a random country, but a way to create international peace on a conflict that can bring the world to destruction. It's bigger than all of us.
Nobody is saying that it will be a peace of cake, it will be hardcore, but..... it's the only way peace can really happen at the end of the day.
Yes you do. You live in dreamland at the moment.
What I'm showing you is the REALISTIC way to create peace following basic sociological principle, not your idealistic one.
In this case, the world need to keep the country together. This is not something that we must let only to those party but a COLLECTIVE responsibility.
Links need to be created between the nations, it can be as quick as two generations.
We are not talking about a couple relationship here or a random country, but a way to create international peace on a conflict that can bring the world to destruction. It's bigger than all of us.
I said before, that if colonization happens it will come much later. This current deal is solely about ending the current war and return the hostages from Hamas and from Israeli prisons.
Reaching the deal was impossible until Trump got elected in November and wheels only started moving after that. Neither admin is pro-Palestine, but one can claim it ended the war. It also shows the previous admin could've ended it, but chose not to.
Trump might visit Israel to take pictures with Israeli hostages to solidify it as his achievement.
Reaching the deal was impossible until Trump got elected in November and wheels only started moving after that. Neither admin is pro-Palestine, but one can claim it ended the war. It also shows the previous admin could've ended it, but chose not to.
Trump might visit Israel to take pictures with Israeli hostages to solidify it as his achievement.
If the deal includes Israel creating a buffer zone/occupying north Gaza that is essentially colonizing. That’s my point.
I don’t think you’re giving Palestinians much credit. If they see that the war stopped, but the lost some of their already diminishing land I can totally see them grow even more contempt for the U.S government. I doubt they’ll see it favorable in any way
I don’t think you’re giving Palestinians much credit. If they see that the war stopped, but the lost some of their already diminishing land I can totally see them grow even more contempt for the U.S government. I doubt they’ll see it favorable in any way
Its all leaks so far. I am quite sure North Gaza is populated and counts as such in the deal. The area they will retreat to seems like the east of Gaza. The details should come out soon-ish.
That depends on whether they lose land from Gaza or not in such a deal. If they didn't, Hamas will claim its victory there.
As for the West Bank, it has been diminishing for decades now. Any annexation will probably happen later down the line and thats probably Trumps gift to Israel. But for some amount of time, they will see Trump as much better than Biden.
That depends on whether they lose land from Gaza or not in such a deal. If they didn't, Hamas will claim its victory there.
As for the West Bank, it has been diminishing for decades now. Any annexation will probably happen later down the line and thats probably Trumps gift to Israel. But for some amount of time, they will see Trump as much better than Biden.
I don’t live in a dream land. The natives quickly conceded to the U.S government once they realize there was no way to win and assimilated pretty seemingly. If these comparisons were even remotely the same Hamas wouldn’t exist
I don’t think you understand the words you using there.
I am not being idealistic, in fact you are. What I am being is pragmatic. I understand the situation from both parties and try to come with the best solution for BOTH of them. If neither want to live with one another then giving them separate countries is the pragmatic solution. Both living under one is the idealistic one.
Yeah no, I’m not really into western nations forcing ethnic groups together. You could argue that’s a key reason why the middle east is a mess to begin with.
And a two state solution cannot lead to this exactly why? If by 2 generations relations have come far, the nations can start discussing things such as an economic union, lifted borders etc.
I don’t think you understand the words you using there.
I am not being idealistic, in fact you are. What I am being is pragmatic. I understand the situation from both parties and try to come with the best solution for BOTH of them. If neither want to live with one another then giving them separate countries is the pragmatic solution. Both living under one is the idealistic one.
Yeah no, I’m not really into western nations forcing ethnic groups together. You could argue that’s a key reason why the middle east is a mess to begin with.
And a two state solution cannot lead to this exactly why? If by 2 generations relations have come far, the nations can start discussing things such as an economic union, lifted borders etc.
We are not talking about native americans (who did resist), but Palestinian. Not the same culture.
There is nothing pragmatic about what you are saying. And that the BIGGEST problem and the reason why there is so much problems in the world today.
People started to confuse pragmatic reason with authoritative ones.
This is a big problem on the right. They take their values as a pragmatic vision of the world but it is actually the most idealize vision possible about human social relationships and human sociology.
You vision, just like theirs, is not based on fact. It's based on the belief that "human be hating eachothers". This is primitive thinking, in the sence that this is an idealistic vision of the world were relationships are directed by affects rather than the material vision of the world. It's the belief that what drives us is our will and our emotions and not our material reality.
This is why I'm telling you that you approach is idealistic. You do not see the bigger picture and you confuse my vision of peace with a naive one. But in reality, you are the naive one.
When I'm telling you that we must push for a one state solution, it means that we must collectively push for the country to be rebuild on systemic HEALTHY material basis. Once those basis will be met and once the material conditions of Palestinian AND Israelian will be bettered, you will see peace arrive very quickly.
The hard part is not peace. It will be easy. The hard part is creating a system that will benefit BOTH party equally and create a country of freedom.
This is the hard part and this is the realitic solution to create REAL structural peace.
Who is talking about western nations ? I'm talking about the international community here. THis means ALL nations, not just the west.
Unless you have an idea to create a two state solution that will benefit EQUALLY both nation, you better start thinking about this solution because you will rapidily see the inefficiency of your solution.
Because what you do not understand is that the problem is not only in the inexistence of Palestine, but the system of Israel itself. A two state solution will create a situation where a part of the people will be closed off from the rest (Palestinians are in Israel too). And since Israel is an appartheid and an ethnostate, this will lead to a situation with major oppressions of Palestinians and other arabs communities in Israel itself, thus creating tensions with other countries and the cycle restart. (it's already the case in Israel btw)
What we need is to destroy the system and rebuild it from scratch.
This means a NEW country containing BOTH Palestinian and Israelians.
For that, we need for both nations to create an equal system under international guidance. A system that must become a symbol of diplomacy.
This has the potential to change the world.
There is nothing pragmatic about what you are saying. And that the BIGGEST problem and the reason why there is so much problems in the world today.
People started to confuse pragmatic reason with authoritative ones.
This is a big problem on the right. They take their values as a pragmatic vision of the world but it is actually the most idealize vision possible about human social relationships and human sociology.
You vision, just like theirs, is not based on fact. It's based on the belief that "human be hating eachothers". This is primitive thinking, in the sence that this is an idealistic vision of the world were relationships are directed by affects rather than the material vision of the world. It's the belief that what drives us is our will and our emotions and not our material reality.
This is why I'm telling you that you approach is idealistic. You do not see the bigger picture and you confuse my vision of peace with a naive one. But in reality, you are the naive one.
When I'm telling you that we must push for a one state solution, it means that we must collectively push for the country to be rebuild on systemic HEALTHY material basis. Once those basis will be met and once the material conditions of Palestinian AND Israelian will be bettered, you will see peace arrive very quickly.
The hard part is not peace. It will be easy. The hard part is creating a system that will benefit BOTH party equally and create a country of freedom.
This is the hard part and this is the realitic solution to create REAL structural peace.
Who is talking about western nations ? I'm talking about the international community here. THis means ALL nations, not just the west.
Unless you have an idea to create a two state solution that will benefit EQUALLY both nation, you better start thinking about this solution because you will rapidily see the inefficiency of your solution.
Because what you do not understand is that the problem is not only in the inexistence of Palestine, but the system of Israel itself. A two state solution will create a situation where a part of the people will be closed off from the rest (Palestinians are in Israel too). And since Israel is an appartheid and an ethnostate, this will lead to a situation with major oppressions of Palestinians and other arabs communities in Israel itself, thus creating tensions with other countries and the cycle restart. (it's already the case in Israel btw)
What we need is to destroy the system and rebuild it from scratch.
This means a NEW country containing BOTH Palestinian and Israelians.
For that, we need for both nations to create an equal system under international guidance. A system that must become a symbol of diplomacy.
This has the potential to change the world.
Capitalism made you guyz fear utopia and made you believe it wasn't possible.
BUT
When we look at the facts and the material reality of the world. Utopia is just a question of creating the right systems.
Why do you think this is not a solution people can want ?
You are still in the primitive idealist mindset "human will hate eachothers". And you do not even take into considerations the fact that some people on both side could actually want that.
BUT
When we look at the facts and the material reality of the world. Utopia is just a question of creating the right systems.
The cognitive dissonance needed to say a solution that takes into account what the people want is authoritative in contrast to the solution that forces people against their wants…
You are still in the primitive idealist mindset "human will hate eachothers". And you do not even take into considerations the fact that some people on both side could actually want that.
Of course there is.
The idea that a one state solution is impossible comes from the idealistic vision that humans are shaped by their affect and mindsets. This is a purely anti-materialistic vision and it doesn't take the reality of the world or what is necessary into question.
In this vision, the ethnocentrism and fundamental colonialistic nature of zionism is ignored to push for an option were both palestinians and Israelian would magically be representated equally in front of international laws and between each others, thus ignoring completely - again - the geopolitical reality of the region were Palestinian have been systematically invisibilized by both Israelians and the internation community. Which will - in time - create problems and restart the conflict.
This should help understand a little bit more : https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/shifting-the-paradigm-the-one-state-solution-as-a-path-to-peace/
What is needed is not idealism. It's MATERIALISM. It's the understanding that both nations can only strive TOGETHER in the region under a REAL HEALTHY system. And such system needs to be build from scratch for both Israelian and palestinians stakes.
You guyz are dreaming a world that can't exist. I'm presenting you a pragmatic solution.
The idea that a one state solution is impossible comes from the idealistic vision that humans are shaped by their affect and mindsets. This is a purely anti-materialistic vision and it doesn't take the reality of the world or what is necessary into question.
In this vision, the ethnocentrism and fundamental colonialistic nature of zionism is ignored to push for an option were both palestinians and Israelian would magically be representated equally in front of international laws and between each others, thus ignoring completely - again - the geopolitical reality of the region were Palestinian have been systematically invisibilized by both Israelians and the internation community. Which will - in time - create problems and restart the conflict.
This should help understand a little bit more : https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/shifting-the-paradigm-the-one-state-solution-as-a-path-to-peace/
What is needed is not idealism. It's MATERIALISM. It's the understanding that both nations can only strive TOGETHER in the region under a REAL HEALTHY system. And such system needs to be build from scratch for both Israelian and palestinians stakes.
You guyz are dreaming a world that can't exist. I'm presenting you a pragmatic solution.
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