Controversial General Political Discussion

[Roo]

So many of these Fascists were socialists or communists in their youth...go figure...
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I have neither shareholders nor workers under me. Who am I getting replaced by?

the problem you're having is you see anti-capitalism = socialism/communism

it's like believing anti red= blue. No, capitalism, socialism or communism arent the end all be all. If anything from what I read Mussolini wanted something more akin to feudalism where there lords is the state and the people work to live in it

 

[Blax Blah]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers'_council

"Some academics and socialists disputed the commitments Vladimir Lenin and Leon Trotsky had toward workers' councils after the Russian Revolution of 1917, noting that workers' councils "were never meant to become a permanent political form of self-governance" and were therefore sidelined by the Communist Party.[5][21][22][23] Some socialists have argued this as an example of the Bolsheviks' betrayal of socialist principles,[5] while others have defended it as necessary for the social conditions at the time to maintain and advance the Revolution.[24]"

 

[NAMELESS]

the problem you're having is you see anti-capitalism = socialism/communism

it's like believing anti red= blue. No, capitalism, socialism or communism arent the end all be all. If anything from what I read Mussolini wanted something more akin to feudalism where there lords is the state and the people work to live in it

There is nothing about Fascism or Nazism that screams right-wing ideology. The Soviets were nationalist and militaristic too. Scientific racism was perfectly acceptable as a fact by many Europeans at the time. No collectivist ideology can claim to be right-wing. The right wing is the antithesis of that.

 

[Roo]

Capitalism is about there being a class of capital owners, who own capital and don't work, and a class of workers, who do all the production and own very little

Capitalism at it's core is the private exchange of good and services. A capitalism exchange could be one where a guy plants a seed, grows it and exchanges it for money.
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There is nothing about Fascism or Nazism that screams right-wing ideology. The Soviets were nationalist and militaristic too. Scientific racism was perfectly acceptable as a fact by many Europeans at the time. No collectivist ideology can claim to be right-wing. The right wing is the antithesis of that.

Fascism and Nazism are at it's core very nationalistic which is right wing

 

[Blax Blah]

Capitalism at it's core is the private exchange of good and services. A capitalism exchange could be one where a guy plants a seed, grows it and exchanges it for money.
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Fascism and Nazism are at it's core very nationalistic which is right wing

I don't think that's a good definition, because that was possible in feudalism too

I looked up capitalism definition and I got these three:

1. An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development occurs through the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.
2. An economic system based on predominantly private (individual or corporate) investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of goods and wealth; contrasted with socialism or especially communism, in which the state has the predominant role in the economy.
   Similar: capitalist economy
3. A socio-economic system based on private property rights, including the private ownership of resources or capital, with economic decisions made largely through the operation of a market unregulated by the state.

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The idea is this, there are two groups of people:

1. The capitalists, who own the capital and do no work, but collect profits from the work done by workers using their capital, because they own the capital

2. The workers, they own very little or nothing, and live by producing things using the capital ( like a factory ) owned by the capitalists, the capitalist takes the value the worker produces, gives some of it back as wages, and takes some of it as profit, because they own the capital so they feel entitled to profit ( despite not working or producing anything )

 

[NAMELESS]

Capitalism at it's core is the private exchange of good and services. A capitalism exchange could be one where a guy plants a seed, grows it and exchanges it for money.
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Fascism and Nazism are at it's core very nationalistic which is right wing

So, were the Soviets, Chinese, Koreans, Cubans and so on...Nationalism isn't exclusive to the right. In fact, many dictators used nationalism as a propaganda tool to unite the people under that flag. So, yeah, I don't see nothing in Fascism and Nazism that screams right-wing, but I do see a common origin with communism and many similar traits. Imagine calling yourself right-wing and beign against Capitalism, Conservatism and Christianity.

 

[Roo]

I don't think that's a good definition, because that was possible in feudalism too

In feudalism the lords owned the land...

That is also possible in communism and socialism

I looked up capitalism definition and I got these three:

1. An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development occurs through the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.
2. An economic system based on predominantly private (individual or corporate) investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of goods and wealth; contrasted with socialism or especially communism, in which the state has the predominant role in the economy.
   Similar: capitalist economy
3. A socio-economic system based on private property rights, including the private ownership of resources or capital, with economic decisions made largely through the operation of a market unregulated by the state.

my definition is there lol

 

[Uncle Van]

fascism is objectively speaking anti capitalist. Read Hitler and Mussolini's manifesto's, dudes hated capitalism and believed the state should supersede any private property which is the definition of anti capitalism

Both true and false. Fascism allows private ownership and allies itself with economic elites/captialist oligarchs, but instead the state controls the means of production

It is state-directed capitalism.

 

[Blax Blah]

That's the reasoning behind the statement "Profit is theft", because the capitalist does no work, they collect the profit just because they own the capital
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In feudalism the lords owned the land...

That is also possible in communism and socialism

I looked up capitalism definition and I got these three:


my definition is there lol

True, and I didn't notice that, but the private ownership of the means of production thing is the key

Feudalism has feudal lords and peasants

Capitalism has capitalists and workers

Feudalism and capitalism both have two classes, who leech off of the working class, except with feudalism, it's because they own the land, with capitalism, it's because they own the capital used, for production, in both cases, by the workers

 

[NAMELESS]

That's the reasoning behind the statement "Profit is theft", because the capitalist does no work, they collect the profit just because they own the capital
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True but the private ownership of the means of production thing is the key

Consumers' willingness to pay is what determines the price of goods. Not workers. Also, drop this fallacy that capitalists don't work. It takes a lot of brains and time to run any kind of business. The stereotype that capitalists live on the beach drinking coconut water is ridiculous. Most billionaires and millionaires are workaholics.

 

[Blax Blah]

Feudalism is known by the feudal mode of production

Peasants produce value working on the land owned by feudal lords, the feudal lords take some of it as profit, and let the peasants have some of it




Capitalism is known by the capitalist mode of production

Same thing except with capital instead of land




Socialism is a social mode of production

Capital is democratically owned and controlled by the workers involved in production, which is to say, the workers working at the company are the shareholders, there is no shareholder who is not a worker

The workers themselves become the bosses




That's why the USSR and China aren't communist, they just give the capitalist role to the state bureaucrat, when socialism would remove the capitalist role entirely, and give that function to workers themselves

 

[NAMELESS]

I resurrected this fucking place. Not sure if this is good or bad. I should get payed for this @Bogard

 

[Roo]

Both true and false. Fascism allows private ownership and allies itself with economic elites/captialist oligarchs, but instead the state controls the means of production

It is state-directed capitalism.

private means of production is crucial to capitalism

this is like wanting a socialist society without the working class owning the means of production, it aint socialism

 

[Uncle Van]

private means of production is crucial to capitalism

this is like wanting a socialist society without the working class owning the means of production, it aint socialism

Or calling yourself a communist society when you have money, stateless, and class.

Not necessarily, but it still relies on capitalist elements and protects capital obligarchs. State-capitalism has the same contradictory lenses as state-communism.

 

[Roo]

Or calling yourself a communist society when you have money, stateless, and class.

Not necessarily, but it still relies on capitalist elements and protects capital obligarchs. State-capitalism has the same contradictory lenses as state-communism.

The soviet union were very open about being 5 years away from communism lol

"relies on capitalis elements" and so did it also relied on socialist ones as well, not a very good argument there

 

[Uncle Van]

The soviet union were very open about being 5 years away from communism lol

"relies on capitalis elements" and so did it also relied on socialist ones as well, not a very good argument there

5 years away for the past like 30 years at the time lol

Capitalist economies adopted socialist elements as well. Fundamentally speaking, Fascism opposed liberal capitalism and marxist socialism, but has a strong relationship with capitalism for their goals.

 

[CoC: Color of Clowns]

"WHAAAAAA, THE DEMOCRATS WON'T LET US STARVE PEOPLE... SNIFF, SNIFF, WHAAAAAAA!"

https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/1ol1rwa
https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/1ol1rwa/_/nmetncv
"judge: "you're not allowed to let poor people starve"

gop: "oh shucks!""

https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/1ol1rwa/_/nmesi3d
"If any Republican tries to tell you Dems are to blame for this, just look at who’s being sued."



That's how you can tell the Trump Administration is run by Israel: the focus on starving poor people, with a special focus on starving non-white children.

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

Man no matter what you think, child you would be horrified by this message
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Is the ps2 backwards compatible or was there a crash bandicoot for the ps2?

Most of his games back then were for the PS2.

 

[Blax Blah]

Most of his games back then were for the PS2.

Wow I only knew about rhe PS1 and PS4 ones

But aren't there 3 Crash Bandicoot PS1 games? So there's more than 3 on the PS2?

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

Reaching pathological liar territory...

Shameless reached this territory 2 years ago.

Vladimir Lennon

fascism is objectively speaking anti capitalist. Read Hitler and Mussolini's manifesto's, dudes hated capitalism and believed the state should supersede any private property which is the definition of anti capitalism

Humans are contradictory creatures.
Our Einsteins here would be surprised to learn of the existence of national communism, a form of communism that places high value on national identity, despite true communism aiming at the dissolution of national identities.
Or nationalist Islamism, despite Islamism being anti racist, highlighting shared belief above everything else.