Controversial General Political Discussion

[Zenos7]

It's because God made time

convenient.
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The difference between the belief that others exist, and that God just made you with your memories like you are, is that believing others exist is reasonable and self-evident, but the idea that God just made you with your current memories is baseless.

it has as much basis as the claim that god is the creator of the universe
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Why not take the same attitude with a phone you find somewhere in a field?

because we know how phones are made, but we dont know how universes form and whether that can occur naturally or whether it requires supernatural intervention. so far scientists dont resort to invoking god for explaining it though.
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By hiding I meant staying in the dark and not coming to him for salvation

You may not have met him, but who made you and the air you breathe and everything you see?

who made god?

 

[Blax Blah]

convenient.
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it has as much basis as the claim that god is the creator of the universe
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because we know how phones are made, but we dont know how universes form and whether that can occur naturally or whether it requires supernatural intervention. so far scientists dont resort to invoking god for explaining it though.

Well you are limiting the creator within the limits of his creation, and then when someone says he's not limited by what he made, you dismiss it as being too convinient, it's just how it works

It doesn't have as much basis, because there is a difference between knowing creation means creator, and making up a statement that doesn't have proof

So are you looking for knowledge of how universes are made just for the tiny perceived possibility that the universe is an exception to the rule of creation means there's a creator?

 

[Logiko]

it really depends on how far down the rabbit hole they are. i think our next meeting will be interesting, since one of my nieces may have autism, so his go-to is obviously that she is autistic due to tylenol/vaccines

Yes, the more biases, the harder it is to get out and yet.. it is possible. I believed in a lot of strange stuff back in the days, sometimes to the point of arguing with my own family. But my mind has always been wired strangely. I needed something more challenging. So my curiosity took the helm. This is why I'm telling you to take a leap of faith. Because this is the only way to jump the gap.

It's because God made time

If only time ever existed...

 

[Blax Blah]

I think that's holding the existence of God up to an un-reasonable standard, especially since you can not for sure prove that someone else you can see touch smell etc exists, and we know very little about how stuff works
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Someone else literally can not even prove that you exist, and they have to take you by faith that what they know is enough to know you exist, so how would you go about proving God exists?

 

[Zenos7]

Well you are limiting the creator within the limits of his creation, and then when someone says he's not limited by what he made, you dismiss it as being too convinient, it's just how it works

It doesn't have as much basis, because there is a difference between knowing creation means creator, and making up a statement that doesn't have proof

So are you looking for knowledge of how universes are made just for the tiny perceived possibility that the universe is an exception to the rule of creation means there's a creator?

"its just how it works" yes, and thats very convenient that you define god in this way where it doesnt need to apply to him.

god existing and god having created everything 10 seconds ago with fake memories both have the exact same amount of evidence. none

and we dont even know whether the universe had a beginning, so what religious people claim for god that he is eternal could just as well be true for the universe.
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I think that's holding the existence of God up to an un-reasonable standard, especially since you can not for sure prove that someone else you can see touch smell etc exists, and we know very little about how stuff works
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Someone else literally can not even prove that you exist, and they have to take you by faith that what they know is enough to know you exist, so how would you go about proving God exists?

Bro, religious people say there is this supernatural being watching over me all the time and punishing me with eternal fire if i dont believe in him the right way. such claims need to be held to extremely high standards.

extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

 

[Blax Blah]

"its just how it works" yes, and thats very convenient that you define god in this way where it doesnt need to apply to him.

god existing and god having created everything 10 seconds ago with fake memories both have the exact same amount of evidence. none

and we dont even know whether the universe had a beginning, so what religious people claim for god that he is eternal could just as well be true for the universe.

Well yeah God is the creator, that's who we're reffering to

Btw @Logiko @Zenos7 Mamdani quoted Eugene Debs in a speech, and a few months ago I shared a quote about Eugene Debs, that said Eugene Debs would sit in his kitchen or his house and recite John Brown's court speech to the person who made the quote, and John Brown is the anti-slavery christian fighter I mentioned a lot

 

[Zenos7]

Yes, the more biases, the harder it is to get out and yet.. it is possible. I believed in a lot of strange stuff back in the days, sometimes to the point of arguing with my own family. But my mind has always been wired strangely. I needed something more challenging. So my curiosity took the helm. This is why I'm telling you to take a leap of faith. Because this is the only way to jump the gap.

ok so are you going to tell me how to go about it or not?
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Well yeah God is the creator, that's who we're reffering to

and im not convinced by the arguments of religious people that their god indeed exists

 

[Blax Blah]

and im not convinced by the arguments of religious people that their god indeed exists

Well I think you should consider the arguments that creation means there's a creator and that there is no objective proof that you yourself exist

 

[Zenos7]

Well I think you should consider the arguments that creation means there's a creator and that there is no objective proof that you yourself exist

Ok congrats, now i believe in a deistic type of god that doesnt intervene anymore after he created everything. because these philosophical arguments never get you to an actual specific theistic version of god. thats why muslims, jews and christians alike use the same arguments.

 

[Blax Blah]

And anyway

In christianity salvation is free and you can not lose it, so if you were saved, you're going to heaven anyway now even if you don't believe, but only you know if you were saved or not, based on 1 John 5:13


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1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.




.







But you're going to lose rewards at the judgement seat of Christ





Keep in mind these letters are written to christians, so when it says "we must all", it is talking to saved people:


2 Corinthians 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

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1 Corinthians 3:13-15

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.


14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.


15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[Logiko]

ok so are you going to tell me how to go about it or not?

Trust me a bit more. Try to project yourself in my position a little bit further. I have a lot of defects, but if there is one thing that I'm not, it's irrational. I know for a fact that my logic is indeed not common, but it is solid. For now, you can't see that, probably because of the way I talk or our interactions, I'm not sure, but leave room for new and more positive biases to emerge and you might be surprised.

 

[Blax Blah]

Ok congrats, now i believe in a deistic type of god that doesnt intervene anymore after he created everything. because these philosophical arguments never get you to an actual specific theistic version of god. thats why muslims, jews and christians alike use the same arguments.

Yeah I think that's true that that's as far as that takes you, but there are arguments for why Jesus Christ is God, on top of that

 

[Zenos7]

Trust me a bit more. Try to project yourself in my position a little bit further. I have a lot of defects, but if there is one thing that I'm not, it's irrational. I know for a fact that my logic is indeed not common, but it is solid. For now, you can't see that, probably because of the way I talk or our interactions, I'm not sure, but leave room for new and more positive biases to emerge and you might be surprised.

well, not really, no. you cannot say that your logic is solid after frequenting logical fallacies regularly.

But im again not surprised that you are not going to actually tell me how to go about it.

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

Ok congrats, now i believe in a deistic type of god that doesnt intervene anymore after he created everything. because these philosophical arguments never get you to an actual specific theistic version of god. thats why muslims, jews and christians alike use the same arguments.

Creation is still ongoing. It's called evolution.

 

[Zenos7]

Yeah I think that's true that that's as far as that takes you, but there are arguments for why Jesus Christ is God, on top of that

there are also arguments for why islam is true instead of christianity. and they have some thing in common, they are usually pretty bad arguments that usually only convince people who are already convinced.
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Creation is still ongoing. It's called evolution.

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

heaven

Define heaven

I don't understand this reaction

 

[Blax Blah]

Define heaven

https://dailyverses.net/heaven/kjv

But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Matthew 5:34-35

Jesus calls heaven God's throne, although since he calls the earth God's footstool that means that's not all there is to it, here are the bible verses about heaven ^

If you guys want to waste away and go to hell and then the lake of fire forever then it's up to you, but again, salvation is a one time free thing that you can not lose, and heaven and the new creation is going to be perfect

You would probably accept 100 billion dollars for free, or to have constant pleasure in doing good for free, so why not accept this for free?

I hope I meet you there







Revelation 21:1 - 7
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
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Also in the lake of fire you'll be in Satan's company, and in the company of many of history's most evil people, so if that's who you want to be with, it's up to you

You have a free way out, that you receive once, for free, and you can not lose it, so why wouldn't you take it?

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Matthew 5:34-35

Jesus calls heaven God's throne

Is 'God's throne' to be interpreted literally? As in, an actual gigantic fancy chair made for a king?
Or is this an allegory?
If it's a literal throne, how come thrones were invented only a few millennia ago? Has God been sitting on a throne before humans came up with building thrones?

And what exactly is there to be gained from being close to a gigantic fancy chair? Does it feel good? Does it bring happiness?

 

[Blax Blah]

Is 'God's throne' to be interpreted literally? As in, an actual gigantic fancy chair made for a king?
Or is this an allegory?
If it's a literal throne, how come thrones were invented only a few millennia ago? Has God been sitting on a throne before humans came up with building thrones?

And what exactly is there to be gained from being close to a gigantic fancy chair? Does it feel good? Does it bring happiness?

I mentioned: "Jesus calls heaven God's throne, although since he calls the earth God's footstool that means that's not all there is to it"

I don't really see an issue with God having a throne before humans made thrones, what's the problem with humans being kicked out of Eden and them having monarchies and making thrones for their kings, after God already had a throne and was king of everything?

The way some preachers put it is this: heaven is a place where you can do anything you want. Since you're going to have a holy nature, you won't ever want to do anything that's bad to do, so any desire you have, you will be able to do it, a place where you can do anything you want.





Also look at Revelation 21:1-7

Revelation 21:1 - 7
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
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The Bible talks a lot about the new heaven and new earth, where saved people will be for eternity:

Revelation 21:9-27



9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.



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Revelation 22:1-21


And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.


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[Logiko]

well, not really, no. you cannot say that your logic is solid after frequenting logical fallacies regularly.

But im again not surprised that you are not going to actually tell me how to go about it.

As I explained, what you see as fallacies are not,at least not in the way you see them.