Controversial General Political Discussion

[RyoQ]

Chimpanzee : Symbolic reasonning and perception
> https://www.jstor.org/stable/3033691

Crows : Problem solving and tool creation and tool use
> https://www.mpg.de/12401947

Frogs, Bees and many other animals: Can count (we know that some even have a concept of Zero)
> https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9253733/

Octopus (such as other animals) : Can use tools
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982209019149

I would have to see what the study considered "reasoning" when referring to the chimpanzee.

All the other things listed (problem-solving, using tools, counting) require mere memory + behavior which I grant that animals do have. Plants also have memory and engage in behaviors.

When we talk about deep learning, we talk about non human intervention mate... try to keep up.

Computers can "learn" if this is your point. I agree that animals can also learn. But both in a way that utilize material or sensory mechanisms


An immaterial effect cannot come from a material cause. Computers are material.

The RESULT of electrical signals. *

How can electrical signals (material) generate abstraction (immaterial)

 

[Logiko]

I would have to see what the study considered "reasoning" when referring to the chimpanzee.

All the other things listed (problem-solving, using tools, counting) require mere memory + behavior which I grant that animals do have. Plants also have memory and engage in behaviors.

Those are literally abstract thinking.

Ok, it's useless...

Computers can "learn" if this is your point. I agree that animals can also learn. But both in a way that utilize material or sensory mechanisms

An immaterial effect cannot come from a material cause. Computers are material.

...

How can electrical signals (material) generate abstraction (immaterial)

Through a projection of the consciousness of said abstractions.

The abstraction only exist as illusions, inputs and outputs projections. Interpretated and created by your cerebral functions.

You might wanna explore a bit much the understanding of the brain. It might help you discover a few things.

 

[RyoQ]

Those are literally abstract thinking

It's not. Using tools can be purely bodily, a cat's claw is a tool that it uses everyday. Using tools can be a purely bodily function.

Problem-solving isn't innately abstract either. An example of problem-solving that doesn't involve abstraction is a worm in some dirt that gets stuck in front of a rock, it wraps around the rock and moves past it. Problem solved, using just it's bodily senses

...

created by your cerebral functions

So abstractions are created by our cerebrum?

How can a material (cerebrum) cause an immaterial (abstraction) effect?

You're playing hot-potato with the fact that an effect is always contained within a cause. Abstract effect can only come from abstract cause.

 

[Brush D. Teeth]

And so finally Europe's economy is fucked, no more cheap gas. A lot of businesses will either close down or move away and people will become much poorer. This was Uncle Sam's great design from the beginning, with the goal of cannibalizing their allies.

 

[Zenos7]

Electrical signals are something physical and material so by definition, cannot be abstract

Thats not what logiko said though

 

[Logiko]

It's not. Using tools can be purely bodily, a cat's claw is a tool that it uses everyday. Using tools can be a purely bodily function.

Problem-solving isn't innately abstract either. An example of problem-solving that doesn't involve abstraction is a worm in some dirt that gets stuck in front of a rock, it wraps around the rock and moves past it. Problem solved, using just it's bodily senses

If only I had 10€ each time someone was telling me "I don't agree" in front of scientific evidences....

How can a material (cerebrum) cause an immaterial (abstraction) effect?

Through complex cognitive processes : Memory/recognition pattern/Language recognition and capacity etc.
> Each of those process are determined by neurobiological mechanisms, neural network and cognitive development.
>> Each of those mechanism are determined by genetic predisposition and the experience of our material condition of existence in and outside of the brain.
>>> Which is determined by our evolution
>>>> Which is determined by the material condition of existence of the livings (Earth and it's components / The sun / The moon)
>>>>> Which is the result of the creation of the solar system
>>>>>> Which was formed after the creation of the Sun from a Nebulae
>>>>>>> Which is the result a chain of reaction created by the explosion of a supernovae
>>>>>>>> Which was the result of a chain of event following the creations of stars and galaxies
>>>>>>>>> Which were formed with by the matter in the universe under the influence of gravity
>>>>>>>>>> Which emerged following the big bang
>>>>>>>>>>> Which was determined by a few fundamental physical constant
>>>>>>>>>>>> Which are the results of a chain of causality created by the existence of the universe
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is a result of ?

By thinking that you have free will, you negate all of that, bypassing the chain of causality in the universe and attributing yourself the power of a god.

 

[RyoQ]

"I don't agree" in front of scientific evidences

I do agree with it, I can see these animals are using tools, counting. I disagree with your interpretation that this entails abstraction on their part and not mere bodily mechanisms & memory

Through complex cognitive processes

How can a material (cognitive, aka in the brain) cause, generate an immaterial (abstraction) effect?

Your saying it's cognitive or due to the cerebrum, right? But the cerebrum or cognitive organ is purely matter, so how could it cause something devoid of matter like abstraction?

By thinking that you have free will, you negate all of that, bypassing the chain of causality in the universe and attributing yourself the power of a god.

The nature of the will is to make a choice, with an internalized reason, or without one. You have not demonstrated it needs to be the former.
[automerge]1735886838[/automerge]

Thats not what logiko said though

You're right, he's now farting around saying it's the cerebrum/brain which causes abstraction

Even though this still contradicts the fact that a cause cannot give to an effect which is not contained within the cause, so a material "brain" (or cerebrum, or electrical signal) cannot create an immaterial abstraction

 

[Logiko]

I do agree with it, I can see these animals are using tools, counting. I disagree with your interpretation that this entails abstraction on their part and not mere bodily mechanisms & memory

It's not my interpretation. But the ones of scientists.

I will end this discussion here. It's useless to continue when evidences are denied.

Your saying it's cognitive or due to the cerebrum, right? But the cerebrum or cognitive organ is purely matter, so how could it cause something devoid of matter like abstraction?

It does not. It's only an illusion.

Just like colors.

You think you see colors because your brain is wired in a way that makes you think that colors exists. But in reality they don't, colors are only a result of the interpretation of the wavelenghts of light - that are absorbed, emitted or reflected by object around us - by our brain through our eyes.

But it's just an illusion. There are no such things as colors in reality.

Just like colors, abstractions are perceptions and constructions.

I'm asking you to demonstrate how it would be impossible for the will to make a choice without an internalized reason.

The nature of the will is to make a choice, with an internalized reason, or without one. You have not demonstrated it needs to be the former.

I did. You didn't accept it. The discussion is useless.

 

[Brush D. Teeth]

It's not my interpretation. But the ones of scientists.

I will end this discussion here. It's useless to continue when evidences are denied.



It does not. It's only an illusion.

Just like colors.

You think you see colors because your brain is wired in a way that makes you think that colors exists. But in reality they don't, colors are only a result of the interpretation of the wavelenghts of light - that are absorbed, emitted or reflected by object around us - by our brain through our eyes.

But it's just an illusion. There are no such things as colors in reality.

Just like colors, abstractions are perceptions and constructions.

I did. You didn't accept it. The discussion is useless.

It's not an illusion, it's a nominal convention. Instead of saying this shirt is blue I could say that its surface is made in a certain way that it reflects some light wavelenghts, but it describes a material phenomenon and it isn't really immaterial.

 

[Logiko]

It's not an illusion, it's a nominal convention. Instead of saying this shirt is blue I could say that its surface is made in a certain way that it reflects some light wavelenghts, but it describes a material phenomenon and it isn't really immaterial.

It's both depending on the context. The perception is real just as what we apply to it, depending if we are talking about the physical and biological phenomenon or the social construct. Both are immaterial. And yet, are derived from material conditions and phenomenon.

Abstractions or even our vision of will, just like colors, are the result of both physical phenomenon and social constructs.

Which is an interesting subject to explore btw

 

[Gaimon The Pirate]

It's not an illusion, it's a nominal convention. Instead of saying this shirt is blue I could say that its surface is made in a certain way that it reflects some light wavelenghts, but it describes a material phenomenon and it isn't really immaterial.

After the Napoli shirt not you have Paolo bonolis.
I cannot cope with it.

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

As that retard Elon would say: "concerning"

My reaction to the title alone before watching the video

 

[Brush D. Teeth]

It's both depending on the context. The perception is real just as what we apply to it, depending if we are talking about the physical and biological phenomenon or the social construct. Both are immaterial. And yet, are derived from material conditions and phenomenon.

Abstractions or even our vision of will, just like colors, are the result of both physical phenomenon and social constructs.

Which is an interesting subject to explore btw

You didn't give any argument in favour of what you are saying. Colour is not a social construct, both light and photoreceptors are very much real.

 

[Gaimon The Pirate]

You didn't give any argument in favour of what you are saying. Colour is not a social construct, both light and photoreceptors are very much real.

You are taking with a retard

 

[Logiko]

You didn't give any argument in favour of what you are saying. Colour is not a social construct, both light and photoreceptors are very much real.

Yes, colors are real in the sence that they are real perceptions and illusions created by our brain to interprate the differences of wavelenght that are coming into our photoreceptors.

But.

They are also (or can also be) social constructs in the sence that the differenciations and distinctions between colors are socially constructed as language is also a social construct and a physical particularity that has evolved over time.

You should see this, it will be clearer:

 

[Brush D. Teeth]

You are taking with a retard

I am bored.

 

[Kami Burn]

retard

*Redditor

 

[Brush D. Teeth]

Yes, colors are real in the sence that they are real perceptions and illusions created by our brain to interprate the differences of wavelenght that are coming into our photoreceptors.

But.

They are also (or can also be) social constructs in the sence that the differenciations and distinctions between colors are socially constructed as language is also a social construct and a physical particularity that has evolved over time.

You should see this, it will be clearer:

A language is either particles vibrating or a certain substance or pixels arranged in a certain way to form a writing, so it's also very much material.

 

[Logiko]

You are taking with a retard

A language is either particles vibrating or a certain substance or pixels arranged in a certain way to form a writing, so it's also very much material.

Yes. Social construct are also part of what we call the "material conditions of our existence". Materiality in the literal sence is not necessarily the determined factor.

For ex: The way you see death, the way you talk about space or the way you conceptualize time, will sometimes differ from societies to societies and this will influence slightly the way we think about those concepts.

I placed a specific section about that in the Leftist Library:

- [VIDEO] - Language shapes the way we think - Lera Boroditsky on Ted Talk - IMPORTANT
- [VIDEO] - Language shapes the way we think - A case study of people speaking a different language
- [MOVIE] - Language shapes the way we think - A movie about the phenomenon - Arrival

Note that it is not a radical influence as studies tends to ponders the influence of languages for the radical modification of perception, but the way we talk culturally about things and concept may have a slight influence on the way we perceive them.

In any case: The way we conceptualize out sence of self, as individuals with their own will, is only a social construct resulting of our material conditions of existence. It doesn't mean that it is the way we are and it also means that we can change this perception.

Once you guyz will be able to take a step back on free will, you will be able to see the far future of society as I picture it: a form of paradise.

 

[RyoQ]

It's not my interpretation. But the ones of scientists.

I will end this discussion here. It's useless to continue when evidences are denied.

The studies say they can use tools, count, solve problems, I agree that they can do all that lol. What's the issue?

Oh right, you assume they meant they can do these things in a way that involves the animal apprehending the universal or immaterial aspects of the matter presented, which is abstraction in the literal sense

It does not. It's only an illusion.

Just like colors.

You think you see colors because your brain is wired in a way that makes you think that colors exists. But in reality they don't, colors are only a result of the interpretation of the wavelenghts of light - that are absorbed, emitted or reflected by object around us - by our brain through our eyes.

But it's just an illusion. There are no such things as colors in reality.

abstractions are perceptions and constructions

This is a logical contradiction. Abstraction does not have physical existence, perception does as it's via the senses

How can material (sensory illusion) generate something immaterial (abstraction)?

ab·stract

adjective
/ˈabˌstrak(t)/

1. 1.
   existing in thought or as an idea but not having a physical or concrete existence

perception
noun

1. the ability to see, hear, or become aware of something through the senses.