Controversial General Political Discussion

[Logiko]

But it's not, it's the opposite.

The state, in an anticapitalist fashion, is a representation of the people for the people. I stand by this mate.

It's not what it is today, but if we want to change that, (at least if we are a communist or a reformist) we need to accept the fact that the state must be a representation of the collective for the collective.

The latter sentence would be correct if the former were but even you seem to be aware that it's only the fact in an IDEAL state. Which doesn't exist.

Yeah, but we are not talking here about the current state of states. But how we should act to fix the system.

In this context, we must accept taxes, even if the current stage is problematic. We can't strive to a better system if we don't start to install that system in the first place. We have to start somewhere.

Not paying taxes, even now, is STILL refusing to participate in society since taxes STILL benefit people like me. (for ex) or people in other difficulties, or social system or health system.

You can't take failures in the institution and just take it as a reference to explain why you must to participating in society as general. If you want that, you need to find a place where you can live alone, but in the meantimes, even in corrupt or bad systems, taxes help people in difficulties, taxes still allow the growth of infrastructures, taxes still manage to prevent the complete collapse of society.

That's what they want you to think😂
Whoever nurtures the system enables it and is part of the problem.

If you want to do the revolution now, good for you. I don't think we are organized enough for that.

Taxes are meant to make the rich richer by stealing from the poor and the middle-class.

ffs

There are more resources than machines needed

How do you know that your society won’t need more resources than we actually have?

 

[NAMELESS]

The state, in an anticapitalist fashion, is a representation of the people for the people. I stand by this mate.

It's not what it is today, but if we want to change that, (at least if we are a communist or a reformist) we need to accept the fact that the state must be a representation of the collective for the collective.



Yeah, but we are not talking here about the current state of states. But how we should act to fix the system.

In this context, we must accept taxes, even if the current stage is problematic. We can't strive to a better system if we don't start to install that system in the first place. We have to start somewhere.

Not paying taxes, even now, is STILL refusing to participate in society since taxes STILL benefit people like me. (for ex) or people in other difficulties, or social system or health system.

You can't take failures in the institution and just take it as a reference to explain why you must to participating in society as general. If you want that, you need to find a place where you can live alone, but in the meantimes, even in corrupt or bad systems, taxes help people in difficulties, taxes still allow the growth of infrastructures, taxes still manage to prevent the complete collapse of society.



If you want to do the revolution now, good for you. I don't think we are organized enough for that.



ffs



How do you know that your society won’t need more resources than we actually have?

More like "by politicians and public servants for politicians and public servants."

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

The state, in an anticapitalist fashion, is a representation of the people for the people. I stand by this mate.

It's not what it is today, but if we want to change that, (at least if we are a communist or a reformist) we need to accept the fact that the state must be a representation of the collective for the collective.

You are talking in hypotheticals and ideals.
Doesn't change the fact that we won't be able to change the system and bring about a state that meets these ideals by supporting the CURRENT state.

we are not talking here about the current state of states

We are

Not paying taxes, even now, is STILL refusing to participate in society since taxes STILL benefit people like me. (for ex) or people in other difficulties, or social system or health system.

You can't take failures in the institution and just take it as a reference to explain why you must to participating in society as general. If you want that, you need to find a place where you can live alone, but in the meantimes, even in corrupt or bad systems, taxes help people in difficulties, taxes still allow the growth of infrastructures, taxes still manage to prevent the complete collapse of society

Cry me a river bleeding heart, what do you know about me that you flaunt your health issues to win arguments against me?
Your statements prove so much about what overreliance on current institutions does to people's mindset and how once a certain threshold is reached, it keeps us down instead of lifting us up.
It's a very fine line to tread but don't act like you have all the answers.
I agree with you that destroying the entire state and replacing it with anarchocapitalism like what those 2 specialists want to do would be the worst option. Nevertheless, on your quest to defend the institutions that barely keep you afloat you're denying others their reality and seem to be content with tossing aside people whose experiences are the polar opposite to yours.
It comes off as quite arrogant on your end.

If you want to do the revolution now, good for you. I don't think we are organized enough for that

How can we get organized when the CURRENT, EXISTING state and institutions are sucking us dry? Explain this to me.

 

[Mathias]

France next saga of big protest to start soon.

 

[HerreraIsBack]

How do you know that your society won’t need more resources than we actually have?

That's a different question. And it is hard to say. It all depends on how big humanity will be in the future. And if we will be able to get resources outside of Earth. But maybe there is still plenty of resources inside the earth we are not able yet to get our hands in.

Post automatically merged: Sep 4, 2025

France next saga of big protest to start soon.

Paris in flames again?

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

France next saga of big protest to start soon.

Make sure to show uncensored graphic footage in pm, bonus points if you filmed it yourself 👍🙂💗

 

[Mathias]

Paris in flames again?

In a week.

ffs

I feel misunderstood even though my comment is crystal clear.

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

@Logiko
I've been harassed by a town who wants to tax me for living there even tho I officially no longer live there and haven't done so in years.
How does a town wrongfully taxing ex citizens benefit society?!? Can you tell me?? Or does this have the power to break your world view?

 

[Logiko]

You are talking in hypotheticals and ideals.
Doesn't change the fact that we won't be able to change the system and bring about a state that meets these ideals by supporting the CURRENT state.

Okay, do you intend to let health stystem and education system to plummit, or to let people in need starve and die in the meantime ?

Real question. If you think taxes in our current system that taxes are bad, knowing that taxes are used also to help the collective, what is your solution aaside from a revolution right then and now mate?

We are

Nah, I'm talking about behavior regarding change.

Cry me a river bleeding heart, what do you know about me that you flaunt your health issues to win arguments against me?
Your statements prove so much about what overreliance on current institutions does to people's mindset and how once a certain threshold is reached, it keeps us down instead of lifting us up.
It's a very fine line to tread but don't act like you have all the answers.
I agree with you that destroying the entire state and replacing it with anarchocapitalism like what those 2 specialists want to do would be the worst option. Nevertheless, on your quest to defend the institutions that barely keep you afloat you're denying others their reality and seem to be content with tossing aside people whose experiences are the polar opposite to yours.
It comes off as quite arrogant on your end.

The reality that you get taxed too much ? Yeah. I completely agree, some people in the middle class and under ARE indeed taxed too much. This doesn't mean that taxes are bad. I'm question this specific point right now.

but hey, maybe I missinterpreted and maybe you don't think that taxes are the problem, just the way they are currently distributed.

And on that, I completely agree. For the moments, taxes are used mainly by the bourgeoisie, for the bourgeoisie. But they are STILL vital for people in difficulty and the collective as a whole, no matter how you look at it. So we can't create a better system by deleting them, that's not how it works.

So the solution is a better redistribution.

And for that, you need to either completely rekt the system or reform into massively. I'm between both. I don't think we are ready for a revolution but I also think just reforming the system is not enough. But it's still the best solution we have at the moment, so at one point, the game needs to be played and we must stop fascist and the bourgeoisie from accaparing ressources.

This means defending taxes, their legitimate usage.

@Mathias I want to pretty much say the same thing to you so I'm tagging you here.

I understood your post, but I think you are wording it wrong. Taxes are used badly by people in power and capitalism, but inherently, they are not the problem. At least in this current system.

How can we get organized when the CURRENT, EXISTING state and institutions are sucking us dry? Explain this to me.

Now THAT'S an interesting question.

What do you think I've been trying to install here mate ?

I'll ask you this : Please, check the world of activism, the dry and dirty repressed stuff in the hearts of the streets, not the shiny liberals asking for donation in coktail events.

Try to get in touch with people who are usually at the forefront of protests, who are organizing stuff, who are educating youngs on politics, who are working in associations and collectives... and try to observe their actual sociology, their ressources, their material condition of lives.

You will see that people who are the most angry, the most organized, the most hopefull, are people who live with a DAMOCLES SWORD over their head days after days.

This is not some coincidence, it's simply a result of a sociological and logical process : when your material conditions of existence change for the worse and when you manage to get access to political awereness, you get angry, radical and politcized REAL FAST. Much faster than a person who spend their life studying politics with a silver spoon in their hand.

So you wanna know how to organize under systemic pressure ? Ask them. After all, you don't have to relly on my word, go ask those activists who struggle to survive and still find time to work in associations, thoses who are afraid for their lives and still find the courage of speaking up against their oppressions..

They are not hard to find, usually people call them "the woke ones"

@Logiko
I've been harassed by a town who wants to tax me for living there even tho I officially no longer live there and haven't done so in years.
How does a town wrongfully taxing ex citizens benefit society?!? Can you tell me?? Or does this have the power to break your world view?

Well, maybe in this case the problem the administration rather than the tax itself, sound like an error from the town and/or a bad system to me.

France next saga of big protest to start soon.

Yup, it's gonna be glorious.

That's a different question. And it is hard to say. It all depends on how big humanity will be in the future. And if we will be able to get resources outside of Earth. But maybe there is still plenty of resources inside the earth we are not able yet to get our hands in.

Even if future technologies or space mining give us more ressources, who guarantees that billionaires won’t control the first machines and infrastructure to extract them, leaving poor people with nothing ?

 

[NAMELESS]

That's a different question. And it is hard to say. It all depends on how big humanity will be in the future. And if we will be able to get resources outside of Earth. But maybe there is still plenty of resources inside the earth we are not able yet to get our hands in.

Post automatically merged: Sep 4, 2025

Paris in flames again?

We haven't even explored the deep seas yet. The Amazon forest has been barely touched. Same for the Antarctic. Global warming might actually increase the amount of fertile soil available in Russia, Canada, and other nations of the global north.

 

[Logiko]

We haven't even explored the deep seas yet. The Amazon forest has been barely touched. Same for the Antarctic. Global warming might actually increase the amount of fertile soil available in Russia, Canada, and other nations of the global north.

You are right, there is no enough exploitation yet, let's burn the planet some more

 

[Mathias]

@Logiko Of course taxes are currently badly used. Should have said "neolib taxes" but I chose to be ambiguous

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

Okay, do you intend to let health stystem and education system to plummit, or to let people in need starve and die in the meantime ?

Wow
Just wow

Nah, I'm talking about behavior regarding change.

This is the problem. You're changing the topic as you go.

nd on that, I completely agree. For the moments, taxes are used mainly by the bourgeoisie, for the bourgeoisie. But they are STILL vital for people in difficulty and the collective as a whole, no matter how you look at it. So we can't create a better system by deleting them, that's not how it works.

So the solution is a better redistribution.

And for that, you need to either completely rekt the system or reform into massively. I'm between both. I don't think we are ready for a revolution but I also think just reforming the system is not enough. But it's still the best solution we have at the moment, so at one point, the game needs to be played and we must stop fascist and the bourgeoisie from accaparing ressources

Taxes won't be fairly distributed when it's the current system doing the taxing
OH
MY
GOD

WHAT???

You lack common sense it's ridiculous

Try to get in touch with people who are usually at the forefront of protests, who are organizing stuff, who are educating youngs on politics, who are working in associations and collectives... and try to observe their actual sociology, their ressources, their material condition of lives.

You mean those who glue themselves to roads?
We need to organize not only protests but feasible ways to reform society and everyday life.
Protesting is essentially war replacement. They only work in a society with functioning governments that actually care about public opinion.
When the state doesn't care about public opinion, peaceful protests become a suicide mission.

a person who spend their life studying politics with a silver spoon in their hand.

Are you calling me that?!

space mining

Oh boy

And one more thing:

afraid for their lives and still find the courage of speaking up against their oppressions

If one fears for their life they must defend themselves. Not beg the killer to spare them.

 

[Logiko]

Wow
Just wow

Tell me, maybe I missunderstood you. But the impression you left is that you want to get rid of taxes.

Taxes won't be fairly distributed when it's the current system doing the taxing
OH
MY
GOD

WHAT???

You lack common sense it's ridiculous

ffs lol

You mean those who glue themselves to roads?
We need to organize not only protests but feasible ways to reform society and everyday life.
Protesting is essentially war replacement. They only work in a society with functioning governments that actually care about public opinion.
When the state doesn't care about public opinion, peaceful protests become a suicide mission.

yeah, so you seems to really have no idea what "organizing" means.

This is too vast of a subject to explain and I'm not the best to explain it. Just ask around. Check how many associations there is in your town, especially the ones who are supporting young in difficulties. Just asks question, ask them how it works, ask what they are doing, how activism are able to organize.

Because if you focus on the liberals who are just spreading paint on themselves to make people wake up, you won't get what I'm talking about.

Are you calling me that?!

Nah, I'm not talking about you here or even your sociology, I'm talking about the bourgoisie and common liberals who think that changing society means organizing charity. I'm exagerating on purpose, but those people can't understand the anger of people in need.

If one fears for their life they must defend themselves. Not beg the killer to spare them.

Exactly. That's what organizing means.

@Logiko Of course taxes are currently badly used. Should have said "neolib taxes" but I chose to be ambiguous

Yah I thoughts so, that's why I didn'reply with a big text

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

the liberals who are just spreading paint on themselves

You call those liberals? Interesting

 

[Blax Blah]

@Logiko Of course taxes are currently badly used. Should have said "neolib taxes" but I chose to be ambiguous

I am anti-capitalist tax, the taxes where your boss takes a big part of the value you produce, because they own the capital

 

[Peroroncino]

 

[Logiko]

You call those liberals? Interesting

Not all of them. Some people are also involved in real organized collective work. But most people think peaceful protest are the graal of change.

What we need is to SCARE those fuckers in power.

Paint is not enough anymore, torches, pitchforks and stones are the tool of change now.

We need to organize, we need to assemble, we need radicalization, we need politicization.

We need them to fear the people again.

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

Not all of them. Some people are also involved in real organized collective work. But most people think peaceful protest are the graal of change.

What we need is to SCARE those fuckers in power.

Paint is not enough anymore, torches, pitchforks and stones are the tool of change now.

We need to organize, we need to assemble, we need radicalization, we need politicization.

We need them to fear the people again.

Right real scary to be opposed by some overtaxed screaming kiddos holding banners in their hands🙈

 

[Logiko]

Right real scary to be opposed by some overtaxed screaming kiddos holding banners in their hands🙈

I mean, if that's not enough for you...

Well..

Maybe what you want is just... a revolution..

I mean.. I don't mind.
I just think it's too soon.