Controversial General Political Discussion

[Mathias]

"O Muslims! Know and be aware that the Qizilbāsh people, whose leader is Ismail son of Ardabil has looked down on our Prophet's laws (Sharia), his custom (sunna), the religion of Islam, the religious science and the Qur'an, which tells us what is right and wrong. They have regarded the prohibitions of God as being allowed. They have offended the Holy Qur'an and burned it by throwing it into the fire. They have even seen their own damned leader as God and prostrated to him. They have cursed and denied the caliphate of the noble Abu Bakr and Umar. They have slandered and cursed the Prophet's wife, our mother Aisha. They intend to eradicate the Prophet's laws (Sharia) and the religion of Islam. Their other offensive statements and behavior similar to what is mentioned here, is known clearly by both me and the rest of the Islamic scholars. We have therefore in accordance with the rules of the religious law (Sharia) and the rights provided in our books, issued a statement (fatwa) towards this population as being infidel and pagan. It is any Muslims duty to destroy such a population. The holy martyr Muslims who die in this connection will achieve the highest paradise (Jannat ul-Ala). The infidels who die, will become contemptible and end up in a place in the deepest hell. The condition of this population is worse than the unbelievers (Christians and Jews). The animals that these people butcher or hunt down are impure (murdar), whether it is by falconry, bow or dog. The marriages they make among each other or with other populations are not valid. They have no right to inheritance. If they live in a village, only the Sultan of Islam, has the right to take over their properties and values and their children by slaughtering all the villagers. These values can only be divided between soldiers of Islam. After this collection, one should not listen to their repentances and regrets, but kill all of them. If it is known that there are any one of them or anyone who supports them here in this town, these must be killed. This kind of population is both incredulous and pagan and at the same time harmful. For these two reasons, it is necessary (vajib) to kill them. God helps those who help the religion and harms those who do harm to a Muslim"
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Straight from the Mufti's mouth all the way back to 1500s btw

It’s almost like there is a context around this fatwa. Something like wars with Iran and typical xenophobia from anytime in history.
Do you have the source ?

Anyway, my words remain true. But I repeat that my intentions are not to make an Empire look great and wash them from their crimes.

Just clarifying that I was originally replying to @NAMELESS whom I didn’t quote and who was roughly saying that Palestinians had only a problem with the Zionists and not the Ottoman without specifying that Ottoman colonies specifically in Palestine did tolerate the main religions there.

 

[Midnight Delight]

It’s almost like there is a context around this fatwa. Something like wars with Iran and typical xenophobia from anytime in history.
Do you have the source ?

Does that justify it?
Şehabettin Tekindağ: Yeni Kaynak ve Vesikaların Işığı Altında Yavuz Sultan Selim'in İran Seferi, Tarih Dergisi, Mart 1967, sayı: 22, s. 54–55 i Cengiz, Seyfi. From wiki

Regardless you are ignoring the discrimination against Twelvers Alawites and Druze and Yazidim that was rampant during the Ottoman era

Muhammad Ali Pasha Rebellion against the Ottomans was welcomed with Warm arms by Druze and Alawites for a reason

 

[NAMELESS]

It would take too long to type out so here's this detailed video about the peace offers so far:

High-quality content. I listened to everything while working. I take back what I said about the peace talks. Still, it seems to me that Palestinians voted for Hamas out of bad blood. Do you have any other high-quality videos about that as well? I understand Jews did a lot of shady things to Palestinians in the early days of Israel, but I still think the idea of dismantling modern-day Israel is obsolete. They are an established nation right now. Yeah, I get that was probably their strategy: "Let's move him, take over the land, and establish a state. The world will eventually legitimize us." Well, I guess they won, because that is exactly how it went down, and now it isn't a realistic or fair solution to create a second Jewish diaspora. Just my two cents.

I’d rather ask historians. And not even the Turkish ones.

But as I said, as a whole. Communities lived together. Wether Christian, Jewish or Muslim. With limits such as taxes higher taxes for non Muslims.

It also depends on the era. People often bring up the 19th century as if the Empire hadn’t lasted for centuries. Wether it’s Byzantium or classical Roman Empire, they never collapse in one year. There is a period of decline.

The majority of Brazilians are Christian. We have around 1 million Muslims and 120 thousand Jews. No conflicts over religion here.

 

[Logiko]

High-quality content. I listened to everything while working. I take back what I said about the peace talks. Still, it seems to me that Palestinians voted for Hamas out of bad blood. Do you have any other high-quality videos about that as well? I understand Jews did a lot of shady things to Palestinians in the early days of Israel, but I still think the idea of dismantling modern-day Israel is obsolete. They are an established nation right now. Yeah, I get that was probably their strategy: "Let's move him, take over the land, and establish a state. The world will eventually legitimize us." Well, I guess they won, because that is exactly how it went down, and now it isn't a realistic or fair solution to create a second Jewish diaspora. Just my two cents.

The problem is that Israel is based on the notion of ethnical nationalism. By defaut this creates a form of oppression that can only hurt Israelian and palestinian and create conflict or war. The destruction of ISrael means the creation of a new state, with both palestinian and Israelian under the guidance of neutral international commitee. This is what expert believe to be the best solutions at the moment.

 

[Logiko]

And they are right. Since the problem with all conflicts is material first: People simply need to live in peace. So as long as someone keep under control the zionist & the religious zealot on the other side who wanna contol everything, the material condition should be met if there is a created consensus of peace. But colonization needs to stop, parts of the lands needs to be given back & the apartheid must go.

 

[Peepooman]

Trump really had an insane aura moment when he got shot that will go down in history only for him to be a dogshit president
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His whole agenda of being anti immigrant is also dead, if immigrants are the scapegoat for every problem, things need to become better once they are deported which is not happening.

We still have high crime, low affordability, house owners are becoming older and older, unemployment increasing, its harder to find work, pay isnt increasing

Plus 300 billion for ICE funding while cutting medicare & goverment jobs, will backfire massively

 

[NikaInParis]

High-quality content. I listened to everything while working. I take back what I said about the peace talks. Still, it seems to me that Palestinians voted for Hamas out of bad blood. Do you have any other high-quality videos about that as well? I understand Jews did a lot of shady things to Palestinians in the early days of Israel, but I still think the idea of dismantling modern-day Israel is obsolete. They are an established nation right now. Yeah, I get that was probably their strategy: "Let's move him, take over the land, and establish a state. The world will eventually legitimize us." Well, I guess they won, because that is exactly how it went down, and now it isn't a realistic or fair solution to create a second Jewish diaspora. Just my two cents.

The majority of Brazilians are Christian. We have around 1 million Muslims and 120 thousand Jews. No conflicts over religion here.

Dismantling Israel as a country is out of the question at this point. It's simply unrealistic. In an ideal world the zionistic policies would be dismantled and Palestinians (and other non-jews) would have a right for citizenship and other basic rights. There would be no need for a second state at all. But sadly we're way past any ideal scenarios. Roughly a century of bad blood lies between these people now.

As for other videos, that same creator has one or two more videos where he adresses common Zionist talking points. Very high quality and researched and he doesn't throw around any childish insults or such. Just commentqry from the other side of the spectrum.

 

[NAMELESS]

Dismantling Israel as a country is out of the question at this point. It's simply unrealistic. In an ideal world the zionistic policies would be dismantled and Palestinians (and other non-jews) would have a right for citizenship and other basic rights. There would be no need for a second state at all. But sadly we're way past any ideal scenarios. Roughly a century of bad blood lies between these people now.

As for other videos, that same creator has one or two more videos where he adresses common Zionist talking points. Very high quality and researched and he doesn't throw around any childish insults or such. Just commentqry from the other side of the spectrum.

I will look into it. Giving context to these things changes the whole picture.

 

[Logiko]

Dismantling Israel as a country is out of the question at this point. It's simply unrealistic.

Not necessarily. Countries are more flexible than we think.

Roughly a century of bad blood lies between these people now.

It's not important. War is a result of material conditions, not past revenge. At worst religious zealotry but if that's get under control, people will live together in less than two generations. As long as everything is done for them to live together. It's a titanic enterprise, but it's not idealist, it's actually the materialist choice. Idealism would be to think both nation can live in peace under the current conditions.

 

[NAMELESS]

under the guidance of neutral international commitee.

It doesn't sound like a solution at all. Who exactly are these "international" organizations that will rule over them? What you are proposing is just a shift on who get to oppress the people from that land. The UN itself has committed numerous human rights violations.

 

[Logiko]

It doesn't sound like a solution at all. Who exactly are these "international" organizations that will rule over them?

Not "rule"->"guide". The current situation is not viable, it only creates conflict. Israel is ethnonationalist so it can only create apartheid and more oppression. So we need a new radical solution, something that take the materiality of the situation into account. The point would be to allow both nations to come together and forge their own government, together, their constitution together etc. A one state solution.

 

[NAMELESS]

Not "rule"->"guide". The current situation is not viable, it only creates conflict. Israel is ethnonationalist so it can only create apartheid and more oppression. So we need a new radical solution, something that take the materiality of the situation into account. The point would be to allow both nations to come together and forge their own government, together, their constitution together etc. A one state solution.

You can't force people that have a history of fighting each other to death to share borders. They need to live in their own lands. Just look at all the genocides in Africa that happened because Europeans fused multiple tribes that were hostile with each other into a single nation. Creating one state for both Palestinians and Israelis isn't a peaceful solution.

 

[Logiko]

You can't force people that have a history of fighting each other to death to share borders.

Indeed we can't, that's why it's something they will have to accept. So they have to come on their own, to the conclusion that it is the best solution. (but it's already the case for the diaspora anyway. Rima Hassan, for ex, is advocating for a one state solution.

They need to live in their own lands.

I agree. But land can be shared. At the beginning, jews were welcomed. This should've stayed that way. People are not conflictual by defaut, when colonizers arrived on Abya Yala some native were defensive but a lot were also very accepting. When you know someone simply need a home, you don't reject them. The problem comes when said person takes your home.

Just look at all the genocides in Africa that happened because Europeans fused multiple tribes that were hostile with each other into a single nation.

Indeed, but we are not talking about a colonial project here but especially an anti-colonial one. One that won't be done to conquer but to create peace.

Creating one state for both Palestinians and Israelis isn't a peaceful solution.

It's the only solution. partition won't work, the apartheid won't go away, oppression of Palestinian will continue. I'm not saying that this is an easy solution, but it's the most realistic and best one they got. Now, the way to do it can be a debate, but the end goal must be set. That's what most anticolonial leftists believe on this question. It's the most materialistic solution. The one that takes reality into question.

 

[NAMELESS]

It's the only solution. partition won't work, the apartheid won't go away, oppression of Palestinian will continue. I'm not saying that this is an easy solution, but it's the most realistic and best one they got. Now, the way to do it can be a debate, but the end goal must be set. That's what most anticolonial leftists believe on this question. It's the most materialistic solution. The one that takes reality into question.

I don't see how; care to elaborate?

 

[Logiko]

I don't see how; care to elaborate?

A prime leftist principle is that conflict arise not because of interpersonnal grudges, but differences of interest in the material condition based on the notion of class, gender and race and in the marxist sense, all of this align with our place in the production under capitalism. So this means that to resolve a conflict we need to allow for everyone's material needs to be fullfiled : Food, shelter, etc.

This is a the current situation. But the reality is that pretty much everything in green is controlled by Israel. And Palestinian are losing more and more control.

A two state solution in that configuration is completely non viable. The colonization and the apartheid wouldn't stop in anycase and Palestinian would be left with nothing. So first, massive part of lands needs to be given back to the native. And both colnization and apartheid must stop. This will allow for the discussion to happen. So we must put pressure on Israel as much as possible. Then..

People and diplomat can think about a new solution. The best best would be this one:

From that, it's new territory, but the principle of creating a way to meet all the material needs must prevail. This means religion equity, ethnic equity, shared lands, program of unification, shared schooling system etc. and most of all a shared constitution and government. etc. Of course it won't be done in one month, but in the span of ten years of hard work, people can create something beautiful.

People think that conflict would rise because of historical grudge. Maybe a few, but the only thing people want is to live in peace, not hating their neighbor. I can assure you that if you gave the choice between this & genocide to Gazan, they would choose to live with former Israelian in a new state in a heartbeat. Material interests leads to conflict, allow these needs to be met and you will have peace.

> This was shot before the genocide, the guy is talking about a catastrophy that would happen... that what Palestinians are living at the moment. The Palestinian diaspora is heavily advocating for a one state solution on the basis of international laws.

 

[sanjikun]

A prime leftist principle is that conflict arise not because of interpersonnal grudges, but differences of interest in the material condition

Yeah that's why Marxists are retarded and don't understand human nature

 

[Logiko]

Yeah that's why Marxists are retarded and don't understand human nature

There is no such thing as "human nature".

 

[Monkey D Theories]

A two state solution in that configuration is completely non viable. The colonization and the apartheid wouldn't stop in anycase and Palestinian would be left with nothing. So first, massive part of lands needs to be given back to the native. And both colnization and apartheid must stop. This will allow for the discussion to happen. So we must put pressure on Israel as much as possible. Then..

People and diplomat can think about a new solution. The best best would be this one:

From that, it's new territory, but the principle of creating a way to meet all the material needs must prevail. This means religion equity, ethnic equity, shared lands, program of unification, shared schooling system etc. and most of all a shared constitution and government. etc. Of course it won't be done in one month, but in the span of ten years of hard work, people can create something beautiful.

People think that conflict would rise because of historical grudge. Maybe a few, but the only thing people want is to live in peace, not hating their neighbor. I can assure you that if you gave the choice between this & genocide to Gazan, they would choose to live with former Israelian in a new state in a heartbeat. Material interests leads to conflict, allow these needs to be met and you will have peace.

> This was shot before the genocide, the guy is talking about a catastrophy that would happen... that what Palestinians are living at the moment. The Palestinian diaspora is heavily advocating for a one state solution on the basis of international laws.

tbh there will probably always be conflict in this region.

just look at India/pakistan for reference.

Due to the levant’s importance to the abrahamic faiths, people have always fought over the land. I believe the only times there were peace was when a foreign empire conquered it.

 

[sanjikun]

There is no such thing as "human nature".

Yes, DNA is fake.

 

[Logiko]

Yes, DNA is fake.

I'm not sure you are talking about DNA when you talk about human nature, am I wrong?



But careful, if you go there, I will go there with you.