Controversial General Political Discussion

[NAMELESS]

A prime leftist principle is that conflict arise not because of interpersonnal grudges, but differences of interest in the material condition based on the notion of class, gender and race and in the marxist sense, all of this align with our place in the production under capitalism. So this means that to resolve a conflict we need to allow for everyone's material needs to be fullfiled : Food, shelter, etc.

This is a the current situation. But the reality is that pretty much everything in green is controlled by Israel. And Palestinian are losing more and more control.

A two state solution in that configuration is completely non viable. The colonization and the apartheid wouldn't stop in anycase and Palestinian would be left with nothing. So first, massive part of lands needs to be given back to the native. And both colnization and apartheid must stop. This will allow for the discussion to happen. So we must put pressure on Israel as much as possible. Then..

People and diplomat can think about a new solution. The best best would be this one:

From that, it's new territory, but the principle of creating a way to meet all the material needs must prevail. This means religion equity, ethnic equity, shared lands, program of unification, shared schooling system etc. and most of all a shared constitution and government. etc. Of course it won't be done in one month, but in the span of ten years of hard work, people can create something beautiful.

People think that conflict would rise because of historical grudge. Maybe a few, but the only thing people want is to live in peace, not hating their neighbor. I can assure you that if you gave the choice between this & genocide to Gazan, they would choose to live with former Israelian in a new state in a heartbeat. Material interests leads to conflict, allow these needs to be met and you will have peace.

> This was shot before the genocide, the guy is talking about a catastrophy that would happen... that what Palestinians are living at the moment. The Palestinian diaspora is heavily advocating for a one state solution on the basis of international laws.

Past wars are proof that not every conflict is about money or resources. Religion and ideology have always been great instigators of armed conflict. Westerners believed China would become a democracy if they industrialized and got money; look how that has gone so far, for example.

tbh there will probably always be conflict in this region.

just look at India/pakistan for reference.

Due to the levant’s importance to the abrahamic faiths, people have always fought over the land. I believe the only times there were peace was when a foreign empire conquered it.

You might be right.

 

[sanjikun]

I'm not sure you are talking about DNA when you talk about human nature, am I wrong?



But careful, if you go there, I will go there with you.

This is why Marxism and far leftism are failed ideologies. They treat humans as abstract concepts and not unique individuals who don't always act according to a formula. Poor people can be evil, just like rich people can be good, and vice-versa. Life is a mish-mash of genetics and environment. It's not either. It's both.

 

[Logiko]

Past wars are proof that not every conflict is about money or resources. Religion and ideology have always been great instigators of armed conflict.

Indeed, that's why I'm saying that both zionism and religious zelots on the Palestinian side must be controlled and shut into silence at least ideologically to let the population act. Shouldn't be really difficult on the Palestinian side, but it will take a while on the Israel's side as long as the west will support this fascist country. They must be isolated and humble down, then there should be a place to discuss.

Westerners believe China would become a democracy if they industrialized and got money; look how that has gone so far, for example.

Yet they manage to commerce with it. China is doing its own thing. While there is authoritarianism, it's something pushed by the population so it must be resolved by population. It's not our place to intervene (unless we are talking about doing something for the minorities (muslim etc.) and in said case, yeah, sanction must be created, but our leaders are cowards.

This is why Marxism and far leftism are failed ideologies.

You have no idea what you are talking about lol

They treat humans as abstract concepts and not unique individuals who don't always act according to a formula

You have a lot to learn about the way we function as a social specie.

Poor people can be evil,

Evil and good are construct, they do not exist. Can poor people act in an "evil way" or unethically? Yup. But no one on this planet is evil or perfect.

Life is a mish-mash of genetics and environment. It's not either. It's both.

Yup. genetic plays a role, but you are giving too much importance. In fact by explanation that genetic plays too big of a role, you are negating the agency of humans. Therefore in this case you are the one seeing humans as abstract concept and not unique invidividual.

But I know that you are just a confused idealist. Someone believing in the power of the mind. That's why you don't get it.

 

[NAMELESS]

This is why Marxism and far leftism are failed ideologies. They treat humans as abstract concepts and not unique individuals who don't always act according to a formula. Poor people can be evil, just like rich people can be good, and vice-versa. Life is a mish-mash of genetics and environment. It's not either. It's both.

Pretty much. It's hard to argue with people that don't believe in free will and holding individuals accountable. They always have this dogmatic approach of searching for EXTRINSIC social reasons for INTRINSIC individual decisions.

Indeed, that's why I'm saying that both zionism and religious zelots on the Palestinian side must be controlled and shut into silence at least ideologically to let the population act. Shouldn't be really difficult on the Palestinian side, but it will take a while on the Israel's side as long as the west will support this fascist country. They must be isolated and humble down, then there should be a place to discuss.



Yet they manage to commerce with it. China is doing its own thing. While there is authoritarianism, it's something pushed by the population so it must be resolved by population. It's not our place to intervene (unless we are talking about doing something for the minorities (muslim etc.) and in said case, yeah, sanction must be created, but our leaders are cowards.



You have no idea what you are talking about lol



You have a lot to learn about the way we function as a social specie.


Evil and good are construct, they do not exist. Can poor people act in an "evil way" or unethically? Yup. But no one on this planet is evil or perfect.



Yup. genetic plays a role, but you are giving too much importance. In fact by explanation that genetic plays too big of a role, you are negating the agency of humans. Therefore in this case you are the one seeing humans as abstract concept and not unique invidividual.

But I know that you are just a confused idealist. Someone believing in the power of the mind. That's why you don't get it.

I agree that ideological and religious extremism on both sides needs to be shut down, but there is no international player that is willing to do anything about that. There is no solution in sight.
My guy, authoritarianism in China (or Russia, Korea, and Cuba) is definitely NOT pushed by the population. Unarmed people are just meat targets in the face of modern firearms and artillery. They can't do shit, even if they wanted to.
As for human nature, every biologist will tell you that animals act in accordance with their genetic composition, but for some reason, you claim humans are different. Psychology has mapped 16 different personality types that exist, for example. We definitely have things we do that are intrinsic, and we can't do anything about it. The mind is a reflex of neurology (aka genetics).

 

[Logiko]

Pretty much. It's hard to argue with people that don't believe in free will and holding individuals accountable. They always have this dogmatic approach of searching for EXTRINSIC social reasons for INTRINSIC individual decisions.

I'm not like other leftist, I'm a physicalist on top of being materialist. Most leftist believe in freewill (or are avoiding the subject) even the most radical. but the lack of belief in free will doesn't change the fact that I'm advocating for agency still. It's not really a paradox. But you on the other hand, must understand how you are the product of your environment much more than your "will". One Piece is not real life.

 

[Jew D. Boy]

https://www.propublica.org/article/andrew-tate-investigation-dhs-paul-ingrassia
I love living in a time and place where pedophiles not only run the most powerful government in the world, they use their influence to protect foreign pedophiles while half the country cheers them on!! It’s so cool to know that evil monsters get to continue committing sexual crimes with zero consequence

 

[NAMELESS]

I'm not like other leftist, I'm a physicalist on top of being materialist. Most leftist believe in freewill (or are avoiding the subject) even the most radical. but the lack of belief in free will doesn't change the fact that I'm advocating for agency still. It's not really a paradox. But you on the other hand, must understand how you are the product of your environment much more than your "will". One Piece is not real life.

I understand the problem of free will like this: "Environment dictates our options and modulates (a very important word; modulation doesn't mean determination) our behavior." Individual agency is responsible for identifying what options are picked and what said individual will decide to do in response to the modulation of his behavior. Example: Young men living in favelas. They have no access to education and basic dignity. Their living conditions are humiliating. Organized crime often seduces youngsters to live a life of crime. The media spreads narratives that such men are justified to live a life of crime due to the conditions they live in. The judiciary doesn't punish men that do choose for a life of crime. So, their environment pushes them to feel humiliated and alienated from basic human dignity and to have a chip on their shoulder towards the hand they were given by life. A handful of them chose crime. The majority simply live humbly in poverty. So, the environment modulated their behavior to be stressed, sad, and angry about their current conditions, but individual agency ultimately decides what kind of life they will live. Granted, we have been simplistic here; sometimes extreme conditions happen, and our agency gets taken over—among other things—by feelings and impulse. Individual agency is definitely NOT absolute and can be taken over by multiple things: drugs, mental illness, feelings, and misguided beliefs, just to point out a couple of examples.

 

[Mathias]

The majority of Brazilians are Christian. We have around 1 million Muslims and 120 thousand Jews. No conflicts over religion here.

Brazil is a modern democracy. Ottoman Empire was an Muslim autocracy

 

[Midnight Delight]

The Nation State is a Disease honestly

Even in Europe it didn't work, France and Germany and Russia basically had to commit cultural genocides for it to "work"

Myanmar, Mali, Syria, Somalia, Ethiopia, Sudan, Nigeria

How many more people have to die untill we acknowledge that the Nation State system is not this natural absolute system

 

[NAMELESS]

Brazil is a modern democracy. Ottoman Empire was an Muslim autocracy

What are you talking about?

 

[Uncle Van]

This is why Marxism and far leftism are failed ideologies. They treat humans as abstract concepts and not unique individuals who don't always act according to a formula. Poor people can be evil, just like rich people can be good, and vice-versa. Life is a mish-mash of genetics and environment. It's not either. It's both.

Marxism relies on the idea that oppressed workers will be empathetic to each other, and happily establish a society where everyone gets what they need. Marxist theory about class war was proven true with the Russian revolution, but it didn't anticipate the ease in which an authoritarian state will arise. Now why would the revolutionaries choose to eliminate each other in power struggles? Such a mystery.

 

[Midnight Delight]

Karl Marx was a certified gooner btw

 

[Logiko]

but individual agency ultimately decides what kind of life they will live.

That's the thing. What you reduce to individual agency is in reality also influenced by hundreds of thousands of factors. Factors out of our control. When these people chose to live in poverty without resorting to crime, they actually had less environmental pressure to fall into it that the others. Sometimes, all it takes is one parameter, one moment. It's difficult to explain such complexity in only 3 lines.

These three video are fundamental to understand what I'm saying, and since we are at it @Bisoromi Bear and @Zenos7 , they are also fundamental to understand why I'm saying "all men are trash" or "All cops are bastard". They are short so you shouldn't have problem with them:

Once you start understanding systems, reality becomes much more interesting but also.. much clearer. A man under patriarchy will fataly depict sexism, simply because it's impossible to bypass such education. For the same reason, a cop will by design defend the system and since the system is oppressive, the cop will fataly depict oppressive behavior. We are product and actors of the systems.

Now.. there is something very important to understand and it is the notion of "material/class interests". We are the result of the material condition of our existence (class, race, gender, genes, physics etc.) as such we also each align with different class/gender/racial interests. A rich person will align with the interest of the bourgeoisie, but I, will mostly align with the interest of the working class for ex.

Being a leftist, is not being on the good or the bad side, it's understanding the principle that we are all the actor/product of systems, & we are sometimes benefiting from, thus pushed to reproduce. Some marxist will say that only class interest exist, but in reality there are many more. It's an intersection of domination (ableism/racism/patriarchy/Capitalism/Sanism/agism etc.)

Marxism relies on the idea that oppressed workers will be empathetic to each other, and happily establish a society where everyone gets what they need.

That why I said, in reality, some marxist lacks a fundamental which is intersectionality. I'm not going too much in detail, but basically, it's what I said above, Patriarchy/racism are not a product of capitalism but they are working in tandem. If capitalism disappear, systemic racism, ableism or patriarchy won't magically disappear, they will get weaken but the problem will remain. So we must think beyond.

 

[Logiko]

Careful tho, because there are two form of intersectionality. The liberal one (the one that I explained and mentionned multiple time on this thread and in the leftist library) and the materialist one (the one current french marxist and anticolonial and antiracist are using).

 

[Zenos7]

Yes, DNA is fake.

You are talking to someone who says biological sex isnt a thing

 

[NAMELESS]

The Nation State is a Disease honestly

Even in Europe it didn't work, France and Germany and Russia basically had to commit cultural genocides for it to "work"

Myanmar, Mali, Syria, Somalia, Ethiopia, Sudan, Nigeria

How many more people have to die untill we acknowledge that the Nation State system is not this natural absolute system

The French Revolution and Napoleonic Era really messed up the world. The Russian Revolution was just the cherry on top of the cake.

Marxism relies on the idea that oppressed workers will be empathetic to each other and happily establish a society where everyone gets what they need. Marxist theory about class war was proven true with the Russian Revolution, but it didn't anticipate the ease in which an authoritarian state will arise. Now why would the revolutionaries choose to eliminate each other in power struggles? Such a mystery.

Did they? Many suspect that was the goal all along. The only logical conclusion to such concentration of power is a dictatorship.

Karl Marx was a certified gooner btw

Oh, really? Why do you say that?

 

[Uncle Van]

Did they? Many suspect that was the goal all along. The only logical conclusion to such concentration of power is a dictatorship.

It wasn't the goal. Marxism and Communism as standalone ideologies and economic systems got nothing to do with authorianism.

It's just that it is so easy for an authoritarian regime to emerge from the ashes of a marxist revolution, and that practically all attempts to bring about communism were through authoritarian states.

You can't forcibly overthrow a ruling system without extreme social and economic instability.

 

[Jew D. Boy]

https://newrepublic.com/post/203357/donald-trump-defends-saudi-mbs-jamal-khashoggi
Nothing to see here, folks; just the “America First” president defending the country that masterminded the most devastating foreign terrorist attack on US soil for summarily assassinating an American journalist…imagine literally any Democrat doing something a tenth as offensive, Ravager would be foaming at the fucking mouth…but somehow, I doubt he’ll have anything to say here

 

[Logiko]

You are talking to someone who says biological sex isnt a thing

Still strugglin with this I see

Nothing to see here, folks; just the “America First” president defending the country that masterminded the most devastating foreign terrorist attack on US soil for summarily assassinating an American journalist…imagine literally any Democrat doing something a tenth as offensive, Ravager would be foaming at the fucking mouth…but somehow, I doubt he’ll have anything to say here

 

[Jew D. Boy]

Still strugglin with this I see

I’m starting to doubt that righties even understand what “cognitive dissonance” is, even though the term was coined specifically for them