Controversial General Political Discussion

[NikaInParis]

High-quality content. I listened to everything while working. I take back what I said about the peace talks. Still, it seems to me that Palestinians voted for Hamas out of bad blood. Do you have any other high-quality videos about that as well? I understand Jews did a lot of shady things to Palestinians in the early days of Israel, but I still think the idea of dismantling modern-day Israel is obsolete. They are an established nation right now. Yeah, I get that was probably their strategy: "Let's move him, take over the land, and establish a state. The world will eventually legitimize us." Well, I guess they won, because that is exactly how it went down, and now it isn't a realistic or fair solution to create a second Jewish diaspora. Just my two cents.

The majority of Brazilians are Christian. We have around 1 million Muslims and 120 thousand Jews. No conflicts over religion here.

Dismantling Israel as a country is out of the question at this point. It's simply unrealistic. In an ideal world the zionistic policies would be dismantled and Palestinians (and other non-jews) would have a right for citizenship and other basic rights. There would be no need for a second state at all. But sadly we're way past any ideal scenarios. Roughly a century of bad blood lies between these people now.

As for other videos, that same creator has one or two more videos where he adresses common Zionist talking points. Very high quality and researched and he doesn't throw around any childish insults or such. Just commentqry from the other side of the spectrum.

 

[NAMELESS]

Dismantling Israel as a country is out of the question at this point. It's simply unrealistic. In an ideal world the zionistic policies would be dismantled and Palestinians (and other non-jews) would have a right for citizenship and other basic rights. There would be no need for a second state at all. But sadly we're way past any ideal scenarios. Roughly a century of bad blood lies between these people now.

As for other videos, that same creator has one or two more videos where he adresses common Zionist talking points. Very high quality and researched and he doesn't throw around any childish insults or such. Just commentqry from the other side of the spectrum.

I will look into it. Giving context to these things changes the whole picture.

 

[Logiko]

Dismantling Israel as a country is out of the question at this point. It's simply unrealistic.

Not necessarily. Countries are more flexible than we think.

Roughly a century of bad blood lies between these people now.

It's not important. War is a result of material conditions, not past revenge. At worst religious zealotry but if that's get under control, people will live together in less than two generations. As long as everything is done for them to live together. It's a titanic enterprise, but it's not idealist, it's actually the materialist choice. Idealism would be to think both nation can live in peace under the current conditions.

 

[NAMELESS]

under the guidance of neutral international commitee.

It doesn't sound like a solution at all. Who exactly are these "international" organizations that will rule over them? What you are proposing is just a shift on who get to oppress the people from that land. The UN itself has committed numerous human rights violations.

 

[Logiko]

It doesn't sound like a solution at all. Who exactly are these "international" organizations that will rule over them?

Not "rule"->"guide". The current situation is not viable, it only creates conflict. Israel is ethnonationalist so it can only create apartheid and more oppression. So we need a new radical solution, something that take the materiality of the situation into account. The point would be to allow both nations to come together and forge their own government, together, their constitution together etc. A one state solution.

 

[NAMELESS]

Not "rule"->"guide". The current situation is not viable, it only creates conflict. Israel is ethnonationalist so it can only create apartheid and more oppression. So we need a new radical solution, something that take the materiality of the situation into account. The point would be to allow both nations to come together and forge their own government, together, their constitution together etc. A one state solution.

You can't force people that have a history of fighting each other to death to share borders. They need to live in their own lands. Just look at all the genocides in Africa that happened because Europeans fused multiple tribes that were hostile with each other into a single nation. Creating one state for both Palestinians and Israelis isn't a peaceful solution.

 

[Logiko]

You can't force people that have a history of fighting each other to death to share borders.

Indeed we can't, that's why it's something they will have to accept. So they have to come on their own, to the conclusion that it is the best solution. (but it's already the case for the diaspora anyway. Rima Hassan, for ex, is advocating for a one state solution.

They need to live in their own lands.

I agree. But land can be shared. At the beginning, jews were welcomed. This should've stayed that way. People are not conflictual by defaut, when colonizers arrived on Abya Yala some native were defensive but a lot were also very accepting. When you know someone simply need a home, you don't reject them. The problem comes when said person takes your home.

Just look at all the genocides in Africa that happened because Europeans fused multiple tribes that were hostile with each other into a single nation.

Indeed, but we are not talking about a colonial project here but especially an anti-colonial one. One that won't be done to conquer but to create peace.

Creating one state for both Palestinians and Israelis isn't a peaceful solution.

It's the only solution. partition won't work, the apartheid won't go away, oppression of Palestinian will continue. I'm not saying that this is an easy solution, but it's the most realistic and best one they got. Now, the way to do it can be a debate, but the end goal must be set. That's what most anticolonial leftists believe on this question. It's the most materialistic solution. The one that takes reality into question.

 

[NAMELESS]

It's the only solution. partition won't work, the apartheid won't go away, oppression of Palestinian will continue. I'm not saying that this is an easy solution, but it's the most realistic and best one they got. Now, the way to do it can be a debate, but the end goal must be set. That's what most anticolonial leftists believe on this question. It's the most materialistic solution. The one that takes reality into question.

I don't see how; care to elaborate?

 

[Logiko]

I don't see how; care to elaborate?

A prime leftist principle is that conflict arise not because of interpersonnal grudges, but differences of interest in the material condition based on the notion of class, gender and race and in the marxist sense, all of this align with our place in the production under capitalism. So this means that to resolve a conflict we need to allow for everyone's material needs to be fullfiled : Food, shelter, etc.

This is a the current situation. But the reality is that pretty much everything in green is controlled by Israel. And Palestinian are losing more and more control.

A two state solution in that configuration is completely non viable. The colonization and the apartheid wouldn't stop in anycase and Palestinian would be left with nothing. So first, massive part of lands needs to be given back to the native. And both colnization and apartheid must stop. This will allow for the discussion to happen. So we must put pressure on Israel as much as possible. Then..

People and diplomat can think about a new solution. The best best would be this one:

From that, it's new territory, but the principle of creating a way to meet all the material needs must prevail. This means religion equity, ethnic equity, shared lands, program of unification, shared schooling system etc. and most of all a shared constitution and government. etc. Of course it won't be done in one month, but in the span of ten years of hard work, people can create something beautiful.

People think that conflict would rise because of historical grudge. Maybe a few, but the only thing people want is to live in peace, not hating their neighbor. I can assure you that if you gave the choice between this & genocide to Gazan, they would choose to live with former Israelian in a new state in a heartbeat. Material interests leads to conflict, allow these needs to be met and you will have peace.

> This was shot before the genocide, the guy is talking about a catastrophy that would happen... that what Palestinians are living at the moment. The Palestinian diaspora is heavily advocating for a one state solution on the basis of international laws.

 

[sanjikun]

A prime leftist principle is that conflict arise not because of interpersonnal grudges, but differences of interest in the material condition

Yeah that's why Marxists are retarded and don't understand human nature

 

[Logiko]

Yeah that's why Marxists are retarded and don't understand human nature

There is no such thing as "human nature".

 

[Monkey D Theories]

A two state solution in that configuration is completely non viable. The colonization and the apartheid wouldn't stop in anycase and Palestinian would be left with nothing. So first, massive part of lands needs to be given back to the native. And both colnization and apartheid must stop. This will allow for the discussion to happen. So we must put pressure on Israel as much as possible. Then..

People and diplomat can think about a new solution. The best best would be this one:

From that, it's new territory, but the principle of creating a way to meet all the material needs must prevail. This means religion equity, ethnic equity, shared lands, program of unification, shared schooling system etc. and most of all a shared constitution and government. etc. Of course it won't be done in one month, but in the span of ten years of hard work, people can create something beautiful.

People think that conflict would rise because of historical grudge. Maybe a few, but the only thing people want is to live in peace, not hating their neighbor. I can assure you that if you gave the choice between this & genocide to Gazan, they would choose to live with former Israelian in a new state in a heartbeat. Material interests leads to conflict, allow these needs to be met and you will have peace.

> This was shot before the genocide, the guy is talking about a catastrophy that would happen... that what Palestinians are living at the moment. The Palestinian diaspora is heavily advocating for a one state solution on the basis of international laws.

tbh there will probably always be conflict in this region.

just look at India/pakistan for reference.

Due to the levant’s importance to the abrahamic faiths, people have always fought over the land. I believe the only times there were peace was when a foreign empire conquered it.

 

[sanjikun]

There is no such thing as "human nature".

Yes, DNA is fake.

 

[Logiko]

Yes, DNA is fake.

I'm not sure you are talking about DNA when you talk about human nature, am I wrong?



But careful, if you go there, I will go there with you.

 

[NAMELESS]

A prime leftist principle is that conflict arise not because of interpersonnal grudges, but differences of interest in the material condition based on the notion of class, gender and race and in the marxist sense, all of this align with our place in the production under capitalism. So this means that to resolve a conflict we need to allow for everyone's material needs to be fullfiled : Food, shelter, etc.

This is a the current situation. But the reality is that pretty much everything in green is controlled by Israel. And Palestinian are losing more and more control.

A two state solution in that configuration is completely non viable. The colonization and the apartheid wouldn't stop in anycase and Palestinian would be left with nothing. So first, massive part of lands needs to be given back to the native. And both colnization and apartheid must stop. This will allow for the discussion to happen. So we must put pressure on Israel as much as possible. Then..

People and diplomat can think about a new solution. The best best would be this one:

From that, it's new territory, but the principle of creating a way to meet all the material needs must prevail. This means religion equity, ethnic equity, shared lands, program of unification, shared schooling system etc. and most of all a shared constitution and government. etc. Of course it won't be done in one month, but in the span of ten years of hard work, people can create something beautiful.

People think that conflict would rise because of historical grudge. Maybe a few, but the only thing people want is to live in peace, not hating their neighbor. I can assure you that if you gave the choice between this & genocide to Gazan, they would choose to live with former Israelian in a new state in a heartbeat. Material interests leads to conflict, allow these needs to be met and you will have peace.

> This was shot before the genocide, the guy is talking about a catastrophy that would happen... that what Palestinians are living at the moment. The Palestinian diaspora is heavily advocating for a one state solution on the basis of international laws.

Past wars are proof that not every conflict is about money or resources. Religion and ideology have always been great instigators of armed conflict. Westerners believed China would become a democracy if they industrialized and got money; look how that has gone so far, for example.

tbh there will probably always be conflict in this region.

just look at India/pakistan for reference.

Due to the levant’s importance to the abrahamic faiths, people have always fought over the land. I believe the only times there were peace was when a foreign empire conquered it.

You might be right.

 

[sanjikun]

I'm not sure you are talking about DNA when you talk about human nature, am I wrong?



But careful, if you go there, I will go there with you.

This is why Marxism and far leftism are failed ideologies. They treat humans as abstract concepts and not unique individuals who don't always act according to a formula. Poor people can be evil, just like rich people can be good, and vice-versa. Life is a mish-mash of genetics and environment. It's not either. It's both.

 

[Logiko]

Past wars are proof that not every conflict is about money or resources. Religion and ideology have always been great instigators of armed conflict.

Indeed, that's why I'm saying that both zionism and religious zelots on the Palestinian side must be controlled and shut into silence at least ideologically to let the population act. Shouldn't be really difficult on the Palestinian side, but it will take a while on the Israel's side as long as the west will support this fascist country. They must be isolated and humble down, then there should be a place to discuss.

Westerners believe China would become a democracy if they industrialized and got money; look how that has gone so far, for example.

Yet they manage to commerce with it. China is doing its own thing. While there is authoritarianism, it's something pushed by the population so it must be resolved by population. It's not our place to intervene (unless we are talking about doing something for the minorities (muslim etc.) and in said case, yeah, sanction must be created, but our leaders are cowards.

This is why Marxism and far leftism are failed ideologies.

You have no idea what you are talking about lol

They treat humans as abstract concepts and not unique individuals who don't always act according to a formula

You have a lot to learn about the way we function as a social specie.

Poor people can be evil,

Evil and good are construct, they do not exist. Can poor people act in an "evil way" or unethically? Yup. But no one on this planet is evil or perfect.

Life is a mish-mash of genetics and environment. It's not either. It's both.

Yup. genetic plays a role, but you are giving too much importance. In fact by explanation that genetic plays too big of a role, you are negating the agency of humans. Therefore in this case you are the one seeing humans as abstract concept and not unique invidividual.

But I know that you are just a confused idealist. Someone believing in the power of the mind. That's why you don't get it.

 

[NAMELESS]

This is why Marxism and far leftism are failed ideologies. They treat humans as abstract concepts and not unique individuals who don't always act according to a formula. Poor people can be evil, just like rich people can be good, and vice-versa. Life is a mish-mash of genetics and environment. It's not either. It's both.

Pretty much. It's hard to argue with people that don't believe in free will and holding individuals accountable. They always have this dogmatic approach of searching for EXTRINSIC social reasons for INTRINSIC individual decisions.

Indeed, that's why I'm saying that both zionism and religious zelots on the Palestinian side must be controlled and shut into silence at least ideologically to let the population act. Shouldn't be really difficult on the Palestinian side, but it will take a while on the Israel's side as long as the west will support this fascist country. They must be isolated and humble down, then there should be a place to discuss.



Yet they manage to commerce with it. China is doing its own thing. While there is authoritarianism, it's something pushed by the population so it must be resolved by population. It's not our place to intervene (unless we are talking about doing something for the minorities (muslim etc.) and in said case, yeah, sanction must be created, but our leaders are cowards.



You have no idea what you are talking about lol



You have a lot to learn about the way we function as a social specie.


Evil and good are construct, they do not exist. Can poor people act in an "evil way" or unethically? Yup. But no one on this planet is evil or perfect.



Yup. genetic plays a role, but you are giving too much importance. In fact by explanation that genetic plays too big of a role, you are negating the agency of humans. Therefore in this case you are the one seeing humans as abstract concept and not unique invidividual.

But I know that you are just a confused idealist. Someone believing in the power of the mind. That's why you don't get it.

I agree that ideological and religious extremism on both sides needs to be shut down, but there is no international player that is willing to do anything about that. There is no solution in sight.
My guy, authoritarianism in China (or Russia, Korea, and Cuba) is definitely NOT pushed by the population. Unarmed people are just meat targets in the face of modern firearms and artillery. They can't do shit, even if they wanted to.
As for human nature, every biologist will tell you that animals act in accordance with their genetic composition, but for some reason, you claim humans are different. Psychology has mapped 16 different personality types that exist, for example. We definitely have things we do that are intrinsic, and we can't do anything about it. The mind is a reflex of neurology (aka genetics).

 

[Logiko]

Pretty much. It's hard to argue with people that don't believe in free will and holding individuals accountable. They always have this dogmatic approach of searching for EXTRINSIC social reasons for INTRINSIC individual decisions.

I'm not like other leftist, I'm a physicalist on top of being materialist. Most leftist believe in freewill (or are avoiding the subject) even the most radical. but the lack of belief in free will doesn't change the fact that I'm advocating for agency still. It's not really a paradox. But you on the other hand, must understand how you are the product of your environment much more than your "will". One Piece is not real life.

 

[Jew D. Boy]

https://www.propublica.org/article/andrew-tate-investigation-dhs-paul-ingrassia
I love living in a time and place where pedophiles not only run the most powerful government in the world, they use their influence to protect foreign pedophiles while half the country cheers them on!! It’s so cool to know that evil monsters get to continue committing sexual crimes with zero consequence