Controversial General Religion Thread

[NikaInParis]

The issue with all religions except christianity is that they have salvation by works, and they do not tell you where you're going when you die

Muhammad never claimed to know where he was going when he died, and no muslim knows, and the Quran doesn't tell you



Only the Bible tells saved believers, to know where they're going when they die:



1 John 5:13

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I don't think I understand your line of logic here:
How exactly is the Qur'an not clear on where believers/disbelievers go after death? It's stated dozens of times. Let alone the narrations from Prophet Muhammed pbuh.

Just one example is Surah 2, Ayat 25:
"And give good tidings to those who believe and do righteous deeds that they will have gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow. Whenever they are provided with a provision of fruit therefrom, they will say, "This is what we were provided with before." And it is given to them in likeness. And they will have therein purified spouses, and they will abide therein eternally."

Believing and doing good deeds -> Paradise

A hadith about deeds (works) alone not being the reason one will be granted Paradise:
"Aisha reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Follow the right course, be devoted, and give glad tidings. Verily, none of you will enter Paradise by his deeds alone.” They said, “Not even you, O Messenger of Allah?” The Prophet said, “Not even myself, unless Allah grants me His mercy. Know that the most beloved deed to Allah is done regularly, even if it is small.”

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 6464, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2818

 

[Blax Blah]

I don't think I understand your line of logic here:
How exactly is the Qur'an not clear on where believers/disbelievers go after death? It's stated dozens of times. Let alone the narrations from Prophet Muhammed pbuh.

Just one example is Surah 2, Ayat 25:
"And give good tidings to those who believe and do righteous deeds that they will have gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow. Whenever they are provided with a provision of fruit therefrom, they will say, "This is what we were provided with before." And it is given to them in likeness. And they will have therein purified spouses, and they will abide therein eternally."

Believing and doing good deeds -> Paradise

A hadith about deeds (works) alone not being the reason one will be granted Paradise:
"Aisha reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Follow the right course, be devoted, and give glad tidings. Verily, none of you will enter Paradise by his deeds alone.” They said, “Not even you, O Messenger of Allah?” The Prophet said, “Not even myself, unless Allah grants me His mercy. Know that the most beloved deed to Allah is done regularly, even if it is small.”

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 6464, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2818

I guess it's fair to assume you're a muslim

Are you going to heaven when you die?

 

[NikaInParis]

I guess it's fair to assume you're a muslim

Are you going to heaven when you die?

Yes, I am.

Only God knows.

 

[BoaHancocksHusband]

And I do want to say, I think the Isaiah 53 isn't about Jesus argument is pretty redundant because

The rabbis have a horrible track record, in all Bibles if you read through them there's a couple chapters dedicated specifically to how Israel would fall and be restored and fall and be restored and fall and be restored, etc, and it happens a bunch of times in the chapters dedicated to talking about it





And I don't say that as an insult but I say it to say




Yeah, maybe the ancient rabbis didn't read Isaiah 53 as if it was talking about one man in the future

But the ancient rabbis also repeatedly failed catastrophically and the whole nation fell a bunch of times





They didn't interpret Isaiah 53 to be about one man, but there is one man in history who does fully fit Isaiah 53, split history in two, fulfilled many messianic prophecies and is going to fulfill the rest, drew the whole world's attention to the jewish God, and explains many Old Testament things ( blood on the jews' doors in egypt looking the same as Jesus with the 2 thieves on the cross did, "God shall provide himself a lamb" - Abraham, paralleling Abraham and Isaac with the Father and the Son, etc )

Isaiah 53 is about the Prophet Muhammad S.A.W.

 

[Blax Blah]

Yes, I am.

Only God knows.

Well my point was that christianity is the only religion that has salvation by grace and tells you where you're going when you die

You don't know where you go when you die, but a christian knows where he's going

 

[BoaHancocksHusband]

Well my point was that christianity is the only religion that has salvation by grace and tells you where you're going when you die

You don't know where you go when you die, but a christian knows where he's going

Muslims go to Jannah.

 

[AL sama]

all Muslims will go to heaven at some point so yeah there's certainty in Islam too

if that's what you wanted to know

 

[Monkey D Theories]

And I do want to say, I think the Isaiah 53 isn't about Jesus argument is pretty redundant because

The rabbis have a horrible track record, in all Bibles if you read through them there's a couple chapters dedicated specifically to how Israel would fall and be restored and fall and be restored and fall and be restored, etc, and it happens a bunch of times in the chapters dedicated to talking about it





And I don't say that as an insult but I say it to say




Yeah, maybe the ancient rabbis didn't read Isaiah 53 as if it was talking about one man in the future

But the ancient rabbis also repeatedly failed catastrophically and the whole nation fell a bunch of times





They didn't interpret Isaiah 53 to be about one man, but there is one man in history who does fully fit Isaiah 53, split history in two, fulfilled many messianic prophecies and is going to fulfill the rest, drew the whole world's attention to the jewish God, and explains many Old Testament things ( blood on the jews' doors in egypt looking the same as Jesus with the 2 thieves on the cross did, "God shall provide himself a lamb" - Abraham, paralleling Abraham and Isaac with the Father and the Son, etc )

And I don't say that to accuse the rabbis @Monkey D Theories


The way the apostles talk about themselves is this:



Romams 7:18
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.


Romans 7:24
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?


1 Timothy 1:15
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.




I'm just stating it as a neutral fact of their track record making them not a reliable source

If you want to know the Jewish perspective on Christianity…

…simply put, identifying any human being as God is a form of idolatry and is expressly forbidden in the Torah.

The Torah mandates that one not ascribe a physical form to Hashem.

Jesus could have been a great person, and the Romans and their judaean collaborators were wrong to have him killed. But I tbh have no need to pray to any person as an incarnation of God.

But if you find meaning in worshipping him as God, I don’t have any issue with it.

 

[BoaHancocksHusband]

If you want to know the Jewish perspective on Christianity…

…simply put, identifying any human being as God is a form of idolatry and is expressly forbidden in the Torah.

The Torah mandates that one not ascribe a physical form to Hashem.

Jesus could have been a great person, and the Romans and their judaean collaborators were wrong to have him killed. But I tbh have no need to pray to any person as an incarnation of God.

But if you find meaning in worshipping him as God, I don’t have any issue with it.

This is exactly how Muslims view it.

 

[NikaInParis]

Well my point was that christianity is the only religion that has salvation by grace and tells you where you're going when you die

You don't know where you go when you die, but a christian knows where he's going

As @AL sama mentioned, every Muslim - and Muslim here meaning anyone that submitted to the one God - with even an atom's weight of belief in their heart will find their way to Paradise.

However, those whose sins warranted a stay in Hell will first go to Hell before they are cleansed of those sins.

Question: Why is this a make or break deal for you in particular? Why does definitely knowing whether you're going to Heaven or Hell mean a religion is true?

In Islam things like the Hour, the Judgment of where one will end up, the Future etc all that knowledge only resides with God.

 

[Blax Blah]

If you want to know the Jewish perspective on Christianity…

…simply put, identifying any human being as God is a form of idolatry and is expressly forbidden in the Torah.

The Torah mandates that one not ascribe a physical form to Hashem.

Jesus could have been a great person, and the Romans and their judaean collaborators were wrong to have him killed. But I tbh have no need to pray to any person as an incarnation of God.

But if you find meaning in worshipping him as God, I don’t have any issue with it.

Well in the hebrew bible too, God manifests himself as an angel, the angel of the Lord


So if God appearing as a human means you're worshipping a human, then you're worshipping an angel either way according to the hebrew bible, and to that train of thought