Controversial General Religion Thread

[NikaInParis]

The issue with all religions except christianity is that they have salvation by works, and they do not tell you where you're going when you die

Muhammad never claimed to know where he was going when he died, and no muslim knows, and the Quran doesn't tell you



Only the Bible tells saved believers, to know where they're going when they die:



1 John 5:13

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I don't think I understand your line of logic here:
How exactly is the Qur'an not clear on where believers/disbelievers go after death? It's stated dozens of times. Let alone the narrations from Prophet Muhammed pbuh.

Just one example is Surah 2, Ayat 25:
"And give good tidings to those who believe and do righteous deeds that they will have gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow. Whenever they are provided with a provision of fruit therefrom, they will say, "This is what we were provided with before." And it is given to them in likeness. And they will have therein purified spouses, and they will abide therein eternally."

Believing and doing good deeds -> Paradise

A hadith about deeds (works) alone not being the reason one will be granted Paradise:
"Aisha reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Follow the right course, be devoted, and give glad tidings. Verily, none of you will enter Paradise by his deeds alone.” They said, “Not even you, O Messenger of Allah?” The Prophet said, “Not even myself, unless Allah grants me His mercy. Know that the most beloved deed to Allah is done regularly, even if it is small.”

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 6464, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2818

 

[Blax Blah]

I don't think I understand your line of logic here:
How exactly is the Qur'an not clear on where believers/disbelievers go after death? It's stated dozens of times. Let alone the narrations from Prophet Muhammed pbuh.

Just one example is Surah 2, Ayat 25:
"And give good tidings to those who believe and do righteous deeds that they will have gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow. Whenever they are provided with a provision of fruit therefrom, they will say, "This is what we were provided with before." And it is given to them in likeness. And they will have therein purified spouses, and they will abide therein eternally."

Believing and doing good deeds -> Paradise

A hadith about deeds (works) alone not being the reason one will be granted Paradise:
"Aisha reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Follow the right course, be devoted, and give glad tidings. Verily, none of you will enter Paradise by his deeds alone.” They said, “Not even you, O Messenger of Allah?” The Prophet said, “Not even myself, unless Allah grants me His mercy. Know that the most beloved deed to Allah is done regularly, even if it is small.”

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 6464, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2818

I guess it's fair to assume you're a muslim

Are you going to heaven when you die?

 

[NikaInParis]

I guess it's fair to assume you're a muslim

Are you going to heaven when you die?

Yes, I am.

Only God knows.

 

[BoaHancocksHusband]

And I do want to say, I think the Isaiah 53 isn't about Jesus argument is pretty redundant because

The rabbis have a horrible track record, in all Bibles if you read through them there's a couple chapters dedicated specifically to how Israel would fall and be restored and fall and be restored and fall and be restored, etc, and it happens a bunch of times in the chapters dedicated to talking about it





And I don't say that as an insult but I say it to say




Yeah, maybe the ancient rabbis didn't read Isaiah 53 as if it was talking about one man in the future

But the ancient rabbis also repeatedly failed catastrophically and the whole nation fell a bunch of times





They didn't interpret Isaiah 53 to be about one man, but there is one man in history who does fully fit Isaiah 53, split history in two, fulfilled many messianic prophecies and is going to fulfill the rest, drew the whole world's attention to the jewish God, and explains many Old Testament things ( blood on the jews' doors in egypt looking the same as Jesus with the 2 thieves on the cross did, "God shall provide himself a lamb" - Abraham, paralleling Abraham and Isaac with the Father and the Son, etc )

Isaiah 53 is about the Prophet Muhammad S.A.W.

 

[Blax Blah]

Yes, I am.

Only God knows.

Well my point was that christianity is the only religion that has salvation by grace and tells you where you're going when you die

You don't know where you go when you die, but a christian knows where he's going

 

[BoaHancocksHusband]

Well my point was that christianity is the only religion that has salvation by grace and tells you where you're going when you die

You don't know where you go when you die, but a christian knows where he's going

Muslims go to Jannah.

 

[AL sama]

all Muslims will go to heaven at some point so yeah there's certainty in Islam too

if that's what you wanted to know

 

[Monkey D Theories]

And I do want to say, I think the Isaiah 53 isn't about Jesus argument is pretty redundant because

The rabbis have a horrible track record, in all Bibles if you read through them there's a couple chapters dedicated specifically to how Israel would fall and be restored and fall and be restored and fall and be restored, etc, and it happens a bunch of times in the chapters dedicated to talking about it





And I don't say that as an insult but I say it to say




Yeah, maybe the ancient rabbis didn't read Isaiah 53 as if it was talking about one man in the future

But the ancient rabbis also repeatedly failed catastrophically and the whole nation fell a bunch of times





They didn't interpret Isaiah 53 to be about one man, but there is one man in history who does fully fit Isaiah 53, split history in two, fulfilled many messianic prophecies and is going to fulfill the rest, drew the whole world's attention to the jewish God, and explains many Old Testament things ( blood on the jews' doors in egypt looking the same as Jesus with the 2 thieves on the cross did, "God shall provide himself a lamb" - Abraham, paralleling Abraham and Isaac with the Father and the Son, etc )

And I don't say that to accuse the rabbis @Monkey D Theories


The way the apostles talk about themselves is this:



Romams 7:18
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.


Romans 7:24
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?


1 Timothy 1:15
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.




I'm just stating it as a neutral fact of their track record making them not a reliable source

If you want to know the Jewish perspective on Christianity…

…simply put, identifying any human being as God is a form of idolatry and is expressly forbidden in the Torah.

The Torah mandates that one not ascribe a physical form to Hashem.

Jesus could have been a great person, and the Romans and their judaean collaborators were wrong to have him killed. But I tbh have no need to pray to any person as an incarnation of God.

But if you find meaning in worshipping him as God, I don’t have any issue with it.

 

[BoaHancocksHusband]

If you want to know the Jewish perspective on Christianity…

…simply put, identifying any human being as God is a form of idolatry and is expressly forbidden in the Torah.

The Torah mandates that one not ascribe a physical form to Hashem.

Jesus could have been a great person, and the Romans and their judaean collaborators were wrong to have him killed. But I tbh have no need to pray to any person as an incarnation of God.

But if you find meaning in worshipping him as God, I don’t have any issue with it.

This is exactly how Muslims view it.

 

[NikaInParis]

Well my point was that christianity is the only religion that has salvation by grace and tells you where you're going when you die

You don't know where you go when you die, but a christian knows where he's going

As @AL sama mentioned, every Muslim - and Muslim here meaning anyone that submitted to the one God - with even an atom's weight of belief in their heart will find their way to Paradise.

However, those whose sins warranted a stay in Hell will first go to Hell before they are cleansed of those sins.

Question: Why is this a make or break deal for you in particular? Why does definitely knowing whether you're going to Heaven or Hell mean a religion is true?

In Islam things like the Hour, the Judgment of where one will end up, the Future etc all that knowledge only resides with God.

 

[Blax Blah]

If you want to know the Jewish perspective on Christianity…

…simply put, identifying any human being as God is a form of idolatry and is expressly forbidden in the Torah.

The Torah mandates that one not ascribe a physical form to Hashem.

Jesus could have been a great person, and the Romans and their judaean collaborators were wrong to have him killed. But I tbh have no need to pray to any person as an incarnation of God.

But if you find meaning in worshipping him as God, I don’t have any issue with it.

Well in the hebrew bible too, God manifests himself as an angel, the angel of the Lord


So if God appearing as a human means you're worshipping a human, then you're worshipping an angel either way according to the hebrew bible, and to that train of thought

 

[Monkey D Theories]

Well in the hebrew bible too, God manifests himself as an angel, the angel of the Lord


So if God appearing as a human means you're worshipping a human, then you're worshipping an angel either way according to the hebrew bible, and to that train of thought

No religious Jew believes that

Christian doctrine however literally identifies a 2000 year old Judaean man as God and prays to that man as if he and Hashem are one and the same.

You’re entitled to that belief. But the reason Jews won’t accept it is because it is idolatry.

Deuteronomy 4

You saw no form of any kind the day the Lordspoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. 19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the Lordyour God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.

 

[Donquixote Shivercalero]

The issue with all religions except christianity is that they have salvation by works, and they do not tell you where you're going when you die

Muhammad never claimed to know where he was going when he died, and no muslim knows, and the Quran doesn't tell you



Only the Bible tells saved believers, to know where they're going when they die:



1 John 5:13

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well. The devils also believe — and tremble. -James 2:19
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. - James 2:26


Rasulullah ﷺ knew his place in paradise hence why his last words were “O Allah, with the highest companionship” (Allahuma Rafīq Al `Ala). The Quran itself is filled with whole chapters mentioning his ﷺ praised station in the next life.

The idea that the Quran doesn’t mention guaranteed salvation for all believers is ludicrous to anyone who been has a passing knowledge of it (Quran 9:72, 2:25, 4:57, and so on)

 

[NikaInParis]

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well. The devils also believe — and tremble. -James 2:19
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. - James 2:26


Rasulullah ﷺ knew his place in paradise hence why his last words were “O Allah, with the highest companionship” (Allahuma Rafīq Al `Ala). The Quran itself is filled with whole chapters mentioning his ﷺ praised station in the next life.

The idea that the Quran doesn’t mention guaranteed salvation for all believers is ludicrous to anyone who been has a passing knowledge of it (Quran 9:72, 2:25, 4:57, and so on)

That is true but Resulullah s.a.w.s. also said multiple times that even he can only hope Allah grants him Jannah out of his mercy.
Of course we know from other instances and the Qur'an that Allah has already decreed Jannah to all his Prophets, and a special place in Jannah for Resulullah s.a.w.s. himself.
Thus we know that the Prophet used to say that to push us to do good despite the fact that Jannah is (eventually) guaranteed for anyone with even a mustard's seed of iman in their heart.

 

[Donquixote Shivercalero]

Well in the hebrew bible too, God manifests himself as an angel, the angel of the Lord


So if God appearing as a human means you're worshipping a human, then you're worshipping an angel either way according to the hebrew bible, and to that train of thought

This is low tier apologetics Hebrews explicitly says Jesus is not an angel and Moses is Laos called God exodus but that doesn’t mean he’s actually the most high god it’s just agency

 

[Donquixote Shivercalero]

That is true but Resulullah s.a.w.s. also said multiple times that even he can only hope Allah grants him Jannah out of his mercy.
Of course we know from other instances and the Qur'an that Allah has already decreed Jannah to all his Prophets, and a special place in Jannah for Resulullah s.a.w.s. himself.
Thus we know that the Prophet used to say that to push us to do good despite the fact that Jannah is (eventually) guaranteed for anyone with even a mustard's seed of iman in their heart.

Yeah but God has non arbitrary limits (He can’t lie, he can’t do evil, so on and so forth) because it’s against his nature. Obviously based on works alone we all deserve damnation but since God has decreed paradise for his pious servants out of his infinite mercy, and God can not lie, we have a guarantee of Paradise as long as we die upon Iman.

If Allah took mankind to task by that which they deserve, He would not leave a living creature on the surface of the earth; but He reprieveth them unto an appointed term. (Fatir 45)

 

[Donquixote Shivercalero]

And I do want to say, I think the Isaiah 53 isn't about Jesus argument is pretty redundant because

The rabbis have a horrible track record, in all Bibles if you read through them there's a couple chapters dedicated specifically to how Israel would fall and be restored and fall and be restored and fall and be restored, etc, and it happens a bunch of times in the chapters dedicated to talking about it





And I don't say that as an insult but I say it to say




Yeah, maybe the ancient rabbis didn't read Isaiah 53 as if it was talking about one man in the future

But the ancient rabbis also repeatedly failed catastrophically and the whole nation fell a bunch of times





They didn't interpret Isaiah 53 to be about one man, but there is one man in history who does fully fit Isaiah 53, split history in two, fulfilled many messianic prophecies and is going to fulfill the rest, drew the whole world's attention to the jewish God, and explains many Old Testament things ( blood on the jews' doors in egypt looking the same as Jesus with the 2 thieves on the cross did, "God shall provide himself a lamb" - Abraham, paralleling Abraham and Isaac with the Father and the Son, etc )

Isaiah 53 is very clearly about the righteous remnant Israel not Jesus. The Christian Jesus fulfills 0 messianic prophecies.

 

[NikaInParis]

Yeah but God has non arbitrary limits (He can’t lie, he can’t do evil, so on and so forth) because it’s against his nature. Obviously based on works alone we all deserve damnation but since God has decreed paradise for his pious servants out of his infinite mercy, and God can not lie, we have a guarantee of Paradise as long as we die upon Iman.

If Allah took mankind to task by that which they deserve, He would not leave a living creature on the surface of the earth; but He reprieveth them unto an appointed term. (Fatir 45)

I don't remember if it's an early generation tafsir or if it is from the Prophet pbuh himself but there also the fact that whenever Allah swt mentions He will maybe do something (e.g. "maybe He will forgive them") it should always be taken as a guarantee that He will. Like in surah Tawbah, ayah 102:
"And [there are] others who have acknowledged their sins. They had mixed a righteous deed with another that was bad. Perhaps Allah will turn to them in forgiveness. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

 

[Donquixote Shivercalero]

Isaiah 53 is about the Prophet Muhammad S.A.W.

Isaiah 53 is about the nation of Israel however Daniel 7, Daniel 2, Deuternomy 33, Deuternomy 18, Songs 5, and many others are about rasullah ﷺ