Character Discussion Gorosei
- Thread starter BoaHancocksHusband
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A good amount of this fandom checked out like a decade ago or maybe half a decade ago. It's why you have people arguing that Zoro and Luffy are stronger then Loki using the exact same arguments against Kidd/Law/ saying he's a DF merchant, or the same arguments against Yamato(oh it's just a hype train etc etc). And you also have people saying that Zoro can hurt Imu because he hurt Kaido, as if Imu's power isn't clearly different.
I can't blame them though, some of them are uncs, and at some point you're going to lose interest in a series if you've been reading it for 20+ years
I can't blame them though, some of them are uncs, and at some point you're going to lose interest in a series if you've been reading it for 20+ years
I can even understand why.
I mean, the first part of the manga and maybe we can stretch that to Wano, really tried to set some point around which the narrative was built. In the first part of the manga we had this old gen supremacy in particular, where Roger and WB were perceived and narrated as the absolute apex of the OP pirate world, with only Garp (and Sengoku) being comparable. Anyway, they/we took that not at face value, because the narrative shenanigans were clear, but at least as partially true. Even BM back in WC seemed to state again WB's superiority, for example.
Then Wano came. First we saw Imu, then we had Xebec over Roger/WB and then all the Nika/Gods shit and so on (Akainu's 5B, etc.).
First time I too was against having Xebec over WB because this "ruined" the Roger/WB dominance... but that was just it. Fortunately, Xebec turned out to be a great character.
And now Harald and then Loki as you said. Loki in particular powercliffed lots of characters I have stanned for years and years, but that is just how it is. Powerlevels aren't everything.
And as we go, the other gods are going to do the same.
I mean, the first part of the manga and maybe we can stretch that to Wano, really tried to set some point around which the narrative was built. In the first part of the manga we had this old gen supremacy in particular, where Roger and WB were perceived and narrated as the absolute apex of the OP pirate world, with only Garp (and Sengoku) being comparable. Anyway, they/we took that not at face value, because the narrative shenanigans were clear, but at least as partially true. Even BM back in WC seemed to state again WB's superiority, for example.
Then Wano came. First we saw Imu, then we had Xebec over Roger/WB and then all the Nika/Gods shit and so on (Akainu's 5B, etc.).
First time I too was against having Xebec over WB because this "ruined" the Roger/WB dominance... but that was just it. Fortunately, Xebec turned out to be a great character.
And now Harald and then Loki as you said. Loki in particular powercliffed lots of characters I have stanned for years and years, but that is just how it is. Powerlevels aren't everything.
And as we go, the other gods are going to do the same.
Yeah, I think it's just a result of, the "God tier" stuff coming out of nowhere, while the fandom was busy debating Yonko vs admirals, Shanks vs Mihawk stuff for 1000 chapters. "Nika" was specifically not mentioned in the first thousand chapters of the manga and we now have characters name dropping him so casually all chapter every chapter, and obviously the other gods stuff was only properly introduced like... years later.
I think someone on here said that modern OP is basically like pokemon tier writing where no one is aging, and the different story arcs barely make sense together. After 10 years of hype for Kaido/Linlin being unstoppable monsters, next level who only maybe Shanks is built like, we get 2 new characters this arc who are clearly on their level at the baseline, or even stronger(Loki/Shamrock), and this is with pretty much no buildup.... lol. Pretty much the same thing as Mewtwo being the strongest Pokemon ever, until they decided they needed new games for more money.
I think someone on here said that modern OP is basically like pokemon tier writing where no one is aging, and the different story arcs barely make sense together. After 10 years of hype for Kaido/Linlin being unstoppable monsters, next level who only maybe Shanks is built like, we get 2 new characters this arc who are clearly on their level at the baseline, or even stronger(Loki/Shamrock), and this is with pretty much no buildup.... lol. Pretty much the same thing as Mewtwo being the strongest Pokemon ever, until they decided they needed new games for more money.
First I was told I can't push new people above the dudes from East Blue, cause Oda makes them different. Or i'm biased for new characters for having them above older admirals or OG legends...
Then I'm told I don't like new characters because I don't agree with the logic being used to push them above handful of older characters..
Tuff to be me I suppose going against the Duality of Man.
Then I'm told I don't like new characters because I don't agree with the logic being used to push them above handful of older characters..
Tuff to be me I suppose going against the Duality of Man.
First I was told I can't push new people above the dudes from East Blue, cause Oda makes them different. Or i'm biased for new characters for having them above older admirals or OG legends...
Then I'm told I don't like new characters because I don't agree with the logic being used to push them above handful of older characters..
Tuff to be me I suppose going against the Duality of Man.
Then I'm told I don't like new characters because I don't agree with the logic being used to push them above handful of older characters..
Tuff to be me I suppose going against the Duality of Man.
Yes you're right, we need to remember this shonen:
OG Gotei 13 didn't get surpassed till end of the series by handful of people at that.
Hashirama-Madara-Tobirama-Hiruzen-Hiruzen's father - the other OGs, didn't get surpassed except by two people.
So I suppose I do need to remember that Shonen love dickriding OGs of the series, especially who the MC aspires to be like, and only MC and 1-2 others are ever allowed to surpass them, and they're usually from the MC's gang... not some side character introduced much later in the series.
This was a reminder given to me, when I said Aramaki - Issho > OG 3 Admirals years ago. So I'm curious which Shonen I need to remember.
OG Gotei 13 didn't get surpassed till end of the series by handful of people at that.
Hashirama-Madara-Tobirama-Hiruzen-Hiruzen's father - the other OGs, didn't get surpassed except by two people.
So I suppose I do need to remember that Shonen love dickriding OGs of the series, especially who the MC aspires to be like, and only MC and 1-2 others are ever allowed to surpass them, and they're usually from the MC's gang... not some side character introduced much later in the series.
This was a reminder given to me, when I said Aramaki - Issho > OG 3 Admirals years ago. So I'm curious which Shonen I need to remember.
First I was told I can't push new people above the dudes from East Blue, cause Oda makes them different. Or i'm biased for new characters for having them above older admirals or OG legends...
Then I'm told I don't like new characters because I don't agree with the logic being used to push them above handful of older characters..
Tuff to be me I suppose going against the Duality of Man.
Then I'm told I don't like new characters because I don't agree with the logic being used to push them above handful of older characters..
Tuff to be me I suppose going against the Duality of Man.
You - and I know because we talked about It - don't like the new narrative of Roger/WB being not the top anymore. Which is fine in itself.
We just stick to the fact that since Wano they started to be powercliffed.
Also, no lol. Fuji and Ryo are not new characters. The two have been around for more than ten years now, even though only in name.
With new character we mean post Wano at least.
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Well, on the very contrary lol.
Hiruzen (old character from the beginning of the manga) was stated to be above all the other Hokage and there was the same hype around Minato... only for Hashirama to far outclass them when he was showed for real.
Old character doesn't mean we just know it's name: It means It was showed and used.
And anyway yes, Naruto Is an example of powecreep, were Madara, Hashirama and then Kaguya far outclassed anything It was shown before, even and included the "strongest" of all Hokage Hiruzen and Minato.
Hiruzen (old character from the beginning of the manga) was stated to be above all the other Hokage and there was the same hype around Minato... only for Hashirama to far outclass them when he was showed for real.
Old character doesn't mean we just know it's name: It means It was showed and used.
And anyway yes, Naruto Is an example of powecreep, were Madara, Hashirama and then Kaguya far outclassed anything It was shown before, even and included the "strongest" of all Hokage Hiruzen and Minato.
I've stated Fujitora > All but Akainu out of the Marines since end of Dressrosa. Then by the time of the reverie/near end of WCI I also went to GB/Issho > any pre-TS Marine top tier. So yes they were new characters at those points. Aramaki didn't even make his debut until Reverie. Then recently I've already stated Tensei is likely to be above Kizaru/Kuzan as well, the rest who knows. When the Scabbards dropped I put them above a lot of the previously introduced characters. Doffy and Katakuri fans have cried their eyes out when people like myself were putting Cracker/Jack above Doffy, or likes of Queen above Katakuri. "ohh you're bias cause they're new characters!! recency bias!!!"
Because I disagree with y'all on putting Loki and Harald above a handful of characters, doesn't equate to me being have any form of bias for or against characters due to their intro age. I simply disagree with the rationale y'all are using to put Loki and Harald above a characters new or old.
I never viewed WB being the top, y'all did.. not me, I've questioned his position as "top 2" or w.e numerous times. I've also never considered Roger himself to be the strongest of his era... y'all did.
Because I disagree with y'all on putting Loki and Harald above a handful of characters, doesn't equate to me being have any form of bias for or against characters due to their intro age. I simply disagree with the rationale y'all are using to put Loki and Harald above a characters new or old.
I never viewed WB being the top, y'all did.. not me, I've questioned his position as "top 2" or w.e numerous times. I've also never considered Roger himself to be the strongest of his era... y'all did.
Yeah, but we're pretty much at the ending here. I mean, ignoring the actual amount of time it will take for Oda to create the last chapter because of breaks, OPLA, filler plot stuff with the SHP and side characters, flashback/lore stuff. Loki is pretty much one of the last strong characters we'll be introduced too, and he has as much shonen nepo baby shit on his side as Luffy, while also having like the most important DF
Not wrong, it's just likely that Loki will be one of those two people, or three with Blackbeard.
The admirals don't really work with this framework, because the C3 never really got written out of the story like Roger/Primebeard/Kaido/Bm/Xebec/Harald etc. So we can't really say that the new admirals are guaranteed to be stronger then the OG 3, and it doesn't help that the og 3 are still getting more focus and attention in the final saga.
Also, I wasn't talking about you in particular. I just think a lot of people aren't really engaging with what's actually happening in the new chaps.
Not wrong, it's just likely that Loki will be one of those two people, or three with Blackbeard.
The admirals don't really work with this framework, because the C3 never really got written out of the story like Roger/Primebeard/Kaido/Bm/Xebec/Harald etc. So we can't really say that the new admirals are guaranteed to be stronger then the OG 3, and it doesn't help that the og 3 are still getting more focus and attention in the final saga.
Also, I wasn't talking about you in particular. I just think a lot of people aren't really engaging with what's actually happening in the new chaps.
Again, those are not new characters lol. Fuji and Ryo have been around for more than ten years, even if in name only (for Ryo).
No one has ever said you were against new characters ever: we said new characters now.
Don't make me quote you, please.
You disagree because you said Loki and Harald being stronger went against the narrative of 1150 characters of OP, of which I replayed It wasn't true because WB and Roger had been powercliffed by Xebec even in Wano.
It's fine, no problem in having preferences. Still, that's It.
No one said anything about the strongest of his era or something like that. I talked about you claiming Roger and WB were the strongest pirates ever and so Xebec and Harald and Loki couldn't be.
No one has ever said you were against new characters ever: we said new characters now.
Don't make me quote you, please.
You disagree because you said Loki and Harald being stronger went against the narrative of 1150 characters of OP, of which I replayed It wasn't true because WB and Roger had been powercliffed by Xebec even in Wano.
It's fine, no problem in having preferences. Still, that's It.
No one said anything about the strongest of his era or something like that. I talked about you claiming Roger and WB were the strongest pirates ever and so Xebec and Harald and Loki couldn't be.
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This is just not true.
During the Oro-Hiruzen fight:
"I can't believe he summoned those two of all people!!" - Hiruzen in reference to Hashirama & Tobirama
"Both famed as the Ultimate Shinobi. They've created and shaped Konoha into what it is!!" - Anbu in reference to Hashirama & Tobirama during that fight
"They say this river born from a scar left by a pair of warriors, long ago" - Kakashi right after Naruto vs Sasuke part 1 in reference to Hashi/Madara... at that point or even in part 2 later, no battle had ever come close to making a river from a scar of somebody's battle.
I mean Hashirama & Tobirama being above Hiruzen was already a possibility established if not a fact dependent on how serious you wanted to take the Anbu statement. And Hashirama being above even Tobirama later based on Kakashi's statement of the battle that occured.
If we're talking about the scale of the battle, it was contained within a barrier as to not overshadow the scale of the battles that would occur later in part 1. I'm sure if there wasn't the barrier, the scale of attacks would've been much bigger.
During the Oro-Hiruzen fight:
"I can't believe he summoned those two of all people!!" - Hiruzen in reference to Hashirama & Tobirama
"Both famed as the Ultimate Shinobi. They've created and shaped Konoha into what it is!!" - Anbu in reference to Hashirama & Tobirama during that fight
"They say this river born from a scar left by a pair of warriors, long ago" - Kakashi right after Naruto vs Sasuke part 1 in reference to Hashi/Madara... at that point or even in part 2 later, no battle had ever come close to making a river from a scar of somebody's battle.
I mean Hashirama & Tobirama being above Hiruzen was already a possibility established if not a fact dependent on how serious you wanted to take the Anbu statement. And Hashirama being above even Tobirama later based on Kakashi's statement of the battle that occured.
If we're talking about the scale of the battle, it was contained within a barrier as to not overshadow the scale of the battles that would occur later in part 1. I'm sure if there wasn't the barrier, the scale of attacks would've been much bigger.
- I'm giving you examples of when I put new characters above older characters and people claimed the opposite of what you claim against me now.
You're now replying with "oh see but we're not talking about back then, we saying you biased towards new characters now!!" Just cause I don't agree with your reasonings or the way y'all view the series for two new characters... because im not putting them above a few amount of individuals.
The overall point being, y'all are doing the same shit that others were doing before, saying a bias for/against characters based on the age of their introduction.
Feel free to quote me.
I said nothing in the series has happened that has changed Roger-Newgate being the two greatest to do it. This isn't "oh because i have a narrative for Newgate-Roger, I then assess Loki-Harald-Xebec wrong"... It's "I saw the flashback, and nothing there made me change my mind regarding this topic".
I assume you're referring to a statement I made something along the lines of: "Roger and Newgate are the two greatest to do it, Xebec/Harald aren't in these convos."
Yea that's not "Xione thinks Harald-Xebec are weaker than them cause it goes against the narrative he already had in his mind".. it's "Xione doesn't see anything in the flashback that puts Xebec/Harald over Newgate/Roger, thus Roger/Newgate are the greatest to do it and the two aren't in their convos".
As for Loki, he's a growing character, he likely will surpass them, along with the bunch of members from the young era of piracy and Marines, when they peak out. But right now Loki? No.
You're now replying with "oh see but we're not talking about back then, we saying you biased towards new characters now!!" Just cause I don't agree with your reasonings or the way y'all view the series for two new characters... because im not putting them above a few amount of individuals.
The overall point being, y'all are doing the same shit that others were doing before, saying a bias for/against characters based on the age of their introduction.
Feel free to quote me.
I said nothing in the series has happened that has changed Roger-Newgate being the two greatest to do it. This isn't "oh because i have a narrative for Newgate-Roger, I then assess Loki-Harald-Xebec wrong"... It's "I saw the flashback, and nothing there made me change my mind regarding this topic".
I assume you're referring to a statement I made something along the lines of: "Roger and Newgate are the two greatest to do it, Xebec/Harald aren't in these convos."
Yea that's not "Xione thinks Harald-Xebec are weaker than them cause it goes against the narrative he already had in his mind".. it's "Xione doesn't see anything in the flashback that puts Xebec/Harald over Newgate/Roger, thus Roger/Newgate are the greatest to do it and the two aren't in their convos".
As for Loki, he's a growing character, he likely will surpass them, along with the bunch of members from the young era of piracy and Marines, when they peak out. But right now Loki? No.
It actually Is:
+ Hiruzen being much more worried about Minato being brought back than Hashirama or Tobirama.
...only for Hashirama to far outclass both Hiruzen and Minato whe he was showed. When you ask? End of the manga/final war, as always.
Writers of shonen are almost always like that.
+ Hiruzen being much more worried about Minato being brought back than Hashirama or Tobirama.
...only for Hashirama to far outclass both Hiruzen and Minato whe he was showed. When you ask? End of the manga/final war, as always.
Writers of shonen are almost always like that.