Great Generals Tournament, Pools-Round 1

[Lee Ba Shou]

Welcome one, welcome to all to the (first?) Great General Tournament, where we put all of the Great Generals of Kingdom in a tournament style VS match up to see who will win among them, and will claim the title of Kingdom Great General Tournament Champion!

Rules:
-Some of the Generals featured in this tournament have only hype and no feats, so just vote based on who you think would win based on whatever reasoning you feel!
-You MUST vote in the poll for your vote to count!
-Discussion is of course always welcome but keep it civil. Feel free to try and persuade each other why the General you feel is stronger overall would win.

So let's do this!

Round 1 - Pools

Ou Sen

-Has his 4 subordinate Generals (Akou, Makou, Denrimi, Sou Ou (and Shi Ryu))
-80,000 men

VERSUS

Kan Mei

-120,000 men to make up for the lack of known subordinates

Scenario: War to slay the opposing commander
Terrain: each side has equal access to flat plains, forests, mountains, gorges, etc

Who wins?

Spoiler: Tags

@Owl Ki @Edward Teach @Arara @Patryipe @Shanks @Den_Den_Mushi @ShinmenTakezo @Guan Yu @Dovahkiin @Greenbeard @DizzyBrows @PuckTheGreat @MarineHQ62 (If I missed you on these tags and you'd like to participate, let me know)

 

[Guan Yu]

Kanmei win. Especially if it is an open war. Ousen might outwitted him, but he simply lacks the man power to kill Kanmei.

Kanmei would just bulldoze through Ousen's HQ with his 10.000 elites Kyoubou unit.

 

[DizzyBrows]

Kanmei definitely takes it here. Nobody from Ousen's army is even close to being capable of taking him out. He's not necessarily an idiot either so I'm not just going to assume Ousen is going to blow him out of the water when it comes to tactics and what not.

Chu soldiers are also superior on average to Qin iirc so with the already numbers advantage coupled with that, they have a huge advantage over the Ousen army.

 

[Shanks]

OuSen takes this.

First of all, Kanmei alone won't be able to get out alive if it's 4 vs 1, Akou Makao SouOu Shiryou vs Kanmei.

If there would be a battle like mentioned topic, OuSen and Denrimi would be enough to crush Kanmei's foot soldiers with their tactics alone (no matter how strong are Chu soldiers). While OuSen would be sending all of his major duelists against Kanmei to gangbang him.

 

[MarineHQ]

I honestly see Kanmei walking through whatever Ousen has prepared for him, though, nearly most of his army will be annihilated in the process due to Ousen's tactics

 

[Patryipe]

Assuming this happens on the plains?

Kanmei.

Sure, Ousen clearly has the upper hand in tactics but I believe the 40k more will nullify Ousen tactical advantage.

Kanmei should take the field from day 1 focusing on thinning out Ousen's number as much as possible. After x days he should just go straight to Ousen's HQ and destroy everything.

 

[Dark Admiral]

If Ousen willingly is participating against Kanmie then Ousen wins it as we already know he doesn’t pick a fight he cannot win.
He basically is Batman.

 

[Patryipe]

If Ousen willingly is participating against Kanmie then Ousen wins it as we already know he doesn’t pick a fight he cannot win.
He basically is Batman.

Who told you that he didn't run away before the fight started?

 

[Shanks]

@Admiral Lee Hung @Owl Ki what's your opinion ??

Spoiler

OuSen's underestimation is damn high here. Lol

 

[Dark Admiral]

Who told you that he didn't run away before the fight started?

Assuming it’s a versus battle, I hardly think it’s the case. Someone who got his face smashed in half by just Moubou’s Brute strength is not making Ousen run.

 

[MarineHQ]

OuSen's underestimation is damn high here. Lol

Well it honestly depends. I really can't see him stopping Kan mei in the fields, but if Ousen is able to play his fortress tactics than he wins.

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

@Admiral Lee Hung @Owl Ki what's your opinion ??

Spoiler

OuSen's underestimation is damn high here. Lol

I think Ousen wins this one, obviously at an extreme diff lol. This is the man who came up with a plan to conquer the entire state of Zhao in like 12 hours, when 2 previously concocted plans by ShouHeiKun himself had proved to be impossible lol.

To think that he can conquer an entire state like this, but he can’t deal with an army of 120K lead by a non tactician like Kanmei is too much for me lol.

All tactics permitted (and they are permitted) Ousen will prevail. He’ll retreat to a flawlessly constructed mountain fortress, fight a war of attrition against the Chu, and either stall out this army that way or if Kanmei retreats, he’ll do what he did against Kou En and lure Kanmei into a tactical death trap.

Obviously slaying Kanmei won’t be easy, but hit him with enough arrows and he will go down. Ousen will not fight Kanmei head on under any circumstance because Kanmei would steamroll him and his generals, but Ousen strategize Kanmei into a death trap pretty easily.

Kanmei’s army did take a severe blow against Moubu’s/Shouheikun’s Echelon after all, I think Ousen knows more than enough tactics to win this war.

 

[Patryipe]

I think Ousen wins this one, obviously at an extreme diff lol. This is the man who came up with a plan to conquer the entire state of Zhao in like 12 hours, when 2 previously concocted plans by ShouHeiKun himself had proved to be impossible lol.

To think that he can conquer an entire state like this, but he can’t deal with an army of 120K lead by a non tactician like Kanmei is too much for me lol.

All tactics permitted (and they are permitted) Ousen will prevail. He’ll retreat to a flawlessly constructed mountain fortress, fight a war of attrition against the Chu, and either stall out this army that way or if Kanmei retreats, he’ll do what he did against Kou En and lure Kanmei into a tactical death trap.

Obviously slaying Kanmei won’t be easy, but hit him with enough arrows and he will go down. Ousen will not fight Kanmei head on under any circumstance because Kanmei would steamroll him and his generals, but Ousen strategize Kanmei into a death trap pretty easily.

Kanmei’s army did take a severe blow against Moubu’s/Shouheikun’s Echelon after all, I think Ousen knows more than enough tactics to win this war.

You can't just change the cards on the table like that

Otherwise I'm gonna say that while Ousen is hidden in his forth Kanmei just surrounds him and simply stays there until Ousen starves...

The terrain should be fixed.

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

You can't just change the cards on the table like that

Otherwise I'm gonna say that while Ousen is hidden in his forth Kanmei just surrounds him and simply stays there until Ousen starves...

The terrain should be fixed.

Fixed as in just a bunch of flat land? We’ve really never seen that in a a Kingdom battle lol, there have always been mountains/hills/gourges/forests, the only caviat I would add would be that both sides have equal access to all terrain that they can use

 

[Patryipe]

Fixed as in just a bunch of flat land? We’ve really never seen that in a a Kingdom battle lol, there have always been mountains/hills/gourges/forests, the only caviat I would add would be that both sides have equal access to all terrain that they can use

We did.

Duke v Keisha
Kanmei v Moubu
Tou v Karin
Shukai Plains

These are essentially fights in the plains, and totally different from for example Kokuyou or Ousen v Renpa.

The terrains matters a lot and if we switch from the plains to mountain fights then tactics and positioning are hugely more important, shifting the advantage to Ousen.

If the terrain is not fixed then I don't see any fight at all. Ousen is gonna run immediately and Kanmei isn't stupid enough to go fighting into the mountains where he'd lose.

 

[Guan Yu]

I think Ousen wins this one, obviously at an extreme diff lol. This is the man who came up with a plan to conquer the entire state of Zhao in like 12 hours, when 2 previously concocted plans by ShouHeiKun himself had proved to be impossible lol.

To think that he can conquer an entire state like this, but he can’t deal with an army of 120K lead by a non tactician like Kanmei is too much for me lol.

All tactics permitted (and they are permitted) Ousen will prevail. He’ll retreat to a flawlessly constructed mountain fortress, fight a war of attrition against the Chu, and either stall out this army that way or if Kanmei retreats, he’ll do what he did against Kou En and lure Kanmei into a tactical death trap.

Obviously slaying Kanmei won’t be easy, but hit him with enough arrows and he will go down. Ousen will not fight Kanmei head on under any circumstance because Kanmei would steamroll him and his generals, but Ousen strategize Kanmei into a death trap pretty easily.

Kanmei’s army did take a severe blow against Moubu’s/Shouheikun’s Echelon after all, I think Ousen knows more than enough tactics to win this war.

But you said in the opening post that it's an open war tho. While the things you listed above isn't an open war.

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

We did.

Duke v Keisha
Kanmei v Moubu
Tou v Karin
Shukai Plains

These are essentially fights in the plains, and totally different from for example Kokuyou or Ousen v Renpa.

The terrains matters a lot and if we switch from the plains to mountain fights then tactics and positioning are hugely more important, shifting the advantage to Ousen.

If the terrain is not fixed then I don't see any fight at all. Ousen is gonna run immediately and Kanmei isn't stupid enough to go fighting into the mountains where he'd lose.

All of those battles had surrounding terrain, they just weren’t utilized by the generals in charge lol. And Riboku did use terrain when he assassinated Makou, and Chou Garyuu also used the forests to retreat from the HSU lol.

Riboku also used the terrain to disguise troop movements in the coalition war lol.

Every battle we’ve seen has had surrounding terrain, it’s just a question of whether the generals use it or not lol

 

[Shanks]

Well it honestly depends. I really can't see him stopping Kan mei in the fields, but if Ousen is able to play his fortress tactics than he wins.

How stopping Kanmei is impossible?? Lol

Kanmei and all of the strategist under him will get toyed by OuSen's strategies and formation.

While all of OuSen's heavy duelists would be playing with Kanmei. Though it won't be any less than extreme diff fight.

But chances of Kanmei winning here is zero. Everyone is saying Chu soldiers are pretty strong but i believe against Makao and Akao army's offence, it would be evenly matched.

I think Ousen wins this one, obviously at an extreme diff lol. This is the man who came up with a plan to conquer the entire state of Zhao in like 12 hours, when 2 previously concocted plans by ShouHeiKun himself had proved to be impossible lol.

To think that he can conquer an entire state like this, but he can’t deal with an army of 120K lead by a non tactician like Kanmei is too much for me lol.

All tactics permitted (and they are permitted) Ousen will prevail. He’ll retreat to a flawlessly constructed mountain fortress, fight a war of attrition against the Chu, and either stall out this army that way or if Kanmei retreats, he’ll do what he did against Kou En and lure Kanmei into a tactical death trap.

Obviously slaying Kanmei won’t be easy, but hit him with enough arrows and he will go down. Ousen will not fight Kanmei head on under any circumstance because Kanmei would steamroll him and his generals, but Ousen strategize Kanmei into a death trap pretty easily.

Kanmei’s army did take a severe blow against Moubu’s/Shouheikun’s Echelon after all, I think Ousen knows more than enough tactics to win this war.

OuSen would be teaching strategies to Kanmei's "fancy" strategist team. They were destroyed by MouBu before than what are the their chances of standing against OuSen. Lol (i know SHK gave strategy to MouBu but he wasn't present there and any good strategist like Mouten or OuHon or Rinou could've stopped MouBu's army there.)

Joke aside but yup it would be extreme diff fight here.

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

But you said in the opening post that it's an open war tho. While the things you listed above isn't an open war.

Using terrain is still open war lol, But I’ll edit the post above for more accuracy

 

[Patryipe]

All of those battles had surrounding terrain, they just weren’t utilized by the generals in charge lol. And Riboku did use terrain when he assassinated Makou, and Chou Garyuu also used the forests to retreat from the HSU lol.

Riboku also used the terrain to disguise troop movements in the coalition war lol.

Every battle we’ve seen has had surrounding terrain, it’s just a question of whether the generals use it or not lol

Totally different, you're taking about MUCH bigger impact.

The guy leading Kanki's cavalry Ringyoku didn't even participate in Kokuyou 'cause that's obviously a problematic terrain for him, and yet put him in the plains of Gyou and...

Spoiler

And I can't be bothered to go and pick other panels that explain how mountains are totally different. E.G., Kyouen having and edge due to the ability to manouver his army with his arrow in the mountains, Ouki telling Moubu not to go deep inside the mountain range to avoid ambushes and whatnot, Zhao's cavalry coming down from mountains when Qin thought was impossible etc. etc.

With this lineup with I favour Kanmei on the plains and Ousen on the mountains. The terrain totally flips the result. Not to mention tha t you write about a pre-built fort for Ousen? What? Why would he get that advantage?

Post automatically merged: Jan 14, 2020

How stopping Kanmei is impossible?? Lol

Kanmei and all of the strategist under him will get toyed by OuSen's strategies and formation.

While all of OuSen's heavy duelists would be playing with Kanmei. Though it won't be any less than extreme diff fight.

But chances of Kanmei winning here is zero. Everyone is saying Chu soldiers are pretty strong but i believe against Makao and Akao army's offence, it would be evenly matched.

OuSen would be teaching strategies to Kanmei's "fancy" strategist team. They were destroyed by MouBu before than what are the their chances of standing against OuSen. Lol (i know SHK gave strategy to MouBu but he wasn't present there and any good strategist like Mouten or OuHon or Rinou could've stopped MouBu's army there.)

Joke aside but yup it would be extreme diff fight here.

Ousen has close to zero chance of slaying Kanmei unless he overwhelms him with troops with no end in sight until Kanmei simply has no stamina left. And where exactly are Kanmei's troops in that scenario?

The best martial artist Ousen has is Akou and Kanmei straight up bullies him.