Powers & Abilities How Haki and Logia Abilities work (Explanation for Erkan12 and co.)

The only specific "counters" in the series so far are Luffy for Enel (it is also unidirectional; as in Enel is not a counter to Luffy) and water for Crocodile.

Magma and Ice don't follow the same principle as Rubber and Lightning.
More like a Sand vs Water principe
Crocodile can dry people or even wood but if you use water against him you will be able to block his intangibility

We can see from the Monet example how that works, she was hit with a Heat Egg by Nami but it merely just impeded her and forced her to reform her body. It did zero damage to her actual body like haki-infused strikes did
She suffered from pain.
I see you coming Zoro's finisher didn't hurt her she was just to affraid so she couldn't reform herself
As for Akainu I doubt they didn't use CoA moreover it more looks like an annoyance than actual damage
To finish Nami hurt a Wing. Monet's Real body don't have wing
Smoke isn't another form of fire though?
I don't understand what your argument is in the second part of this post but no he cannot become water DF user.
under some conditions you will get smoke from fire like vapor you can't get it if the conditions aren't present
My argument is that neither of them can transform into another element even if the conditions required are present.
Hence if the element can't stay in his initial form they will be damaged

Exactly. Now apply the same logic to when Akainu's magma and Aokiji's ice interact
Luffy's body have no effect on Mochi it's not the same case
I see what you said but here Akainu can melt Ice so normally he should be able to damage ice too


Yes. That is the argument.
The issue is that where Aokiji is if Akainu completely melted Ice ?
 
H

Herrera95

Ice isn't an element? Let's look at the definition of element boys and girls

Element: each of more than one hundred substances that cannot be chemically interconverted or broken down into simpler substances and are primary constituents of matter. Each element is distinguished by its atomic number, i.e. the number of protons in the nuclei of its atoms.



What element is ice?
"ICE (Hydrogen Oxide)

As a naturally occurring crystalline inorganic solid with an ordered structure, ice is considered to be a mineral. It possesses a regular crystalline structure based on the molecule of water, which consists of a single oxygen atom covalently bonded to two hydrogen atoms, or H–O–H.

Are minerals an element? : Minerals are made up of chemical elements. A chemical element is a substance that is made up of only one kind of atom. Have you heard of oxygen, hydrogen, iron, aluminium, gold and copper? These are all chemical elements.


https://www.google.com/search?q=definition.of.the+word.element&client=ms-android-samsung-gj-rev1&sxsrf=AOaemvKuCzTKVqXgO9ft74eMPvDbBrILiw:1640992240147&ei=8I3PYdKuCNSJwbkP54KF8AQ&oq=def&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAEYADIECCMQJzIECCMQJzIECCMQJzIECAAQQzIECAAQQzIHCAAQsQMQQzIECAAQQzIFCAAQgAQ6BwgjELADECc6BwgAEEcQsAM6BwgAELADEEM6BggAEBYQHjoHCCMQ6gIQJzoECC4QQzoICAAQsQMQgwE6DgguEIAEELEDEMcBEKMCOg4ILhCxAxCDARDHARCvAUoECEEYAFDNBlj-FmDTJGgCcAF4AoABuAeIAeofkgEJNS41LjEuNi0zmAEAoAEBsAEPyAERwAEB&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp


Here is another link to research yourself

https://www.google.com/search?clien...BHT0EC94Q1QJ6BAhEEAE&biw=412&bih=828&dpr=1.75
Ice is a STATE of Water. Water is the element not ICE.
 
Ice is a STATE of Water. Water is the element not ICE.
As the links stated ice is also an element since its water but hard. Water changing its shape to something solid doesn't take away its elemental properties. Therefore it is still an element with just another name for its current STATE. Hence why your point was dumb. The same way Magma being both compounds of earth with fire does not take away it being an element.

The same way smoke being stem and vapor from heat does not change it from being an element
 
H

Herrera95

As the links stated ice is also an element since its water but hard. Water changing its shape to something solid doesn't take away its elemental properties. Therefore it is still an element with just another name for its current STATE. Hence why your point was dumb. The same way Magma being both compounds of earth with fire does not take away it being an element.

The same way smoke being stem and vapor from heat does not change it from being an element
We have Caesar for example. Which is GAS. And every form of GAS. Makes no sense Aokiji to be water only at it solid state.
 
As the links stated ice is also an element since its water but hard. Water changing its shape to something solid doesn't take away its elemental properties. Therefore it is still an element with just another name for its current STATE. Hence why your point was dumb. The same way Magma being both compounds of earth with fire does not take away it being an element.

The same way smoke being stem and vapor from heat does not change it from being an element
We have Caesar for example. Which is GAS. And every form of GAS. Makes no sense Aokiji to be water only at it solid state.
Guys...
It doesn't matter what form he turns into as long as the actual body is not touched he can regenerate out of nothingness.
See Nami vs Monet example before.
 
H

Herrera95

Guys...
It doesn't matter what form he turns into as long as the actual body is not touched he can regenerate out of nothingness.
See Nami vs Monet example before.
You don't even know what we are discussing and what was your point anyway?
 
You don't even know what we are discussing and what was your point anyway?
I know what you were discussing... Logias dont turn into a different form of their element.
They simply get their bodies destroyed and rebuild them by creating their own element out of nothingness.
They can do that even if you attack them with haki but their original body would still be injured in that case.
 
Like i thought and said it didn't do anything to her.
Nami dispersed her snow form with heat but it didn't damage her real body.
Well obviously if you can disperse her snow form by melting it it will delay her and push her back cause she has to regenerate it, that's why Nami says "It works".
Nah, I think you are being very dishonest here. When Oda shows you Nami noticing that heat does work against a snow woman who screams in pain because of it, the message he's conveying is that Monet was hurt by it. Because yes, Monet is screaming in pain: if you check the Japanese version you will notice she's screaming in the exact same way as when she's slashed by both Tashigi and Zoro and bleeds; is she also reacting with surprise when she's cut and bleeding?

On top of this, Monet can be delayed with attacks that don't work on her; hence why Robin breaks her body into pieces in order to stop her for a moment (in a similar fashion to other logia being stopped for a moment). But when Robin tore her apart Monet didn't scream in pain, nor she was quite serious and upset while looking at the hole on her body, nor was it ever stressed that it "does work" (compared to what...?) in quite a reasonable way since she was melting snow with heat, not simply breaking it, in an elemmental interaction that reminds of rubber and electricity or water and sand.

You can clearly see in the panel Nami blew up her entire arm with the heat ball yet you can also clearly see that the snow is forming around it like it is only being dispersed.
If it truly affected her real body then her entire arm would've been gone...
I don't think this is how logia bodies work. Jozu smashed Kuzan to pieces with haki and he wasn't gone. Rayleigh slashed through Kizaru's light upper body and he wasn't beheaded for it. Both had their real body affected yet the damage done to their elemmental body wasn't comparable to the actual damage their flesh suffered.

The panel you provided is actual clear evidence that heat did in fact NOT affect her real body at all.
Monet rebuilt/regenerated her arm without problems that wouldn't be possible if actual damage to her real body was caused.
Here she gets cut in half with haki and doesn't regenerate from it, also you can see in that panel that there is no snow forming/dispersing around the cut part because haki bypassed the intangibility.
Many things wrong here.

1) Zoro didn't cut Monet in half with haki, she didn't even bleed a little bit from that. He simply slashed her snow body and defeated here with sheer fear. No haki involved.

2) Logia users whose elemmental body is utterly destroyed by haki attacks are perfectly capable of regenerating from it; again, check Kuzan versus Jozu and Kizaru versus Rayleigh and Jozu versus Crocodile (only his legs keep their shape) for comparison.

3) It took some panels, but Monet's body did regenerate from Zoro cutting her in half. She then tries to attack him and Tashigi puts her down for good.

4) An intangible body that is slashed without haki may still not disperse around the cut; check Kizaru versus Apoo for comparison.

The reason why fire can melt ice easier than Magma is because magma is heated liquified rock with a lot of mass whereas fire is heated gas without any mass.
If you try to melt ice with flames it will melt a lot faster than when you put lava on it, in fact depending on the amount of ice putting magma on it doesn't even allow the ice to be melted entirely since the magma will be cooled down at some point.
Experiments from youtube:
Flames vs Ice
Lava vs Ice: (Also keep in mind this is a much more liquified version of it, Akainu's Magma is more solid than this)
While I appreciate the effort, I don't trust Oda following real world logic for his counters in such a hard way. So it's pointless to argue from them, he's way more simplistic, hence why Luffy's rubber wasn't melted in front of whatever millions of volts Enel stroke him with.
 
We have Caesar for example. Which is GAS. And every form of GAS. Makes no sense Aokiji to be water only at it solid state.
Except the explanation of ice says exactly what it is water in a solid state. It's the same with ace. Why can't ace produce magma even though he fire? Why can't akainu produce fire even though he is magma (which is earth and fire/heat).

You see why your point is dumb?

Ok now that's that's cleared up we can move on
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Nah, I think you are being very dishonest here. When Oda shows you Nami noticing that heat does work against a snow woman who screams in pain because of it, the message he's conveying is that Monet was hurt by it. Because yes, Monet is screaming in pain: if you check the Japanese version you will notice she's screaming in the exact same way as when she's slashed by both Tashigi and Zoro and bleeds; is she also reacting with surprise when she's cut and bleeding?

On top of this, Monet can be delayed with attacks that don't work on her; hence why Robin breaks her body into pieces in order to stop her for a moment (in a similar fashion to other logia being stopped for a moment). But when Robin tore her apart Monet didn't scream in pain, nor she was quite serious and upset while looking at the hole on her body, nor was it ever stressed that it "does work" (compared to what...?) in quite a reasonable way since she was melting snow with heat, not simply breaking it, in an elemmental interaction that reminds of rubber and electricity or water and sand.



I don't think this is how logia bodies work. Jozu smashed Kuzan to pieces with haki and he wasn't gone. Rayleigh slashed through Kizaru's light upper body and he wasn't beheaded for it. Both had their real body affected yet the damage done to their elemmental body wasn't comparable to the actual damage their flesh suffered.




Many things wrong here.

1) Zoro didn't cut Monet in half with haki, she didn't even bleed a little bit from that. He simply slashed her snow body and defeated here with sheer fear. No haki involved.

2) Logia users whose elemmental body is utterly destroyed by haki attacks are perfectly capable of regenerating from it; again, check Kuzan versus Jozu and Kizaru versus Rayleigh and Jozu versus Crocodile (only his legs keep their shape) for comparison.

3) It took some panels, but Monet's body did regenerate from Zoro cutting her in half. She then tries to attack him and Tashigi puts her down for good.

4) An intangible body that is slashed without haki may still not disperse around the cut; check Kizaru versus Apoo for comparison.



While I appreciate the effort, I don't trust Oda following real world logic for his counters in such a hard way. So it's pointless to argue from them, he's way more simplistic, hence why Luffy's rubber wasn't melted in front of whatever millions of volts Enel stroke him with.
Your last point is cap since oda literally introduced vulcanization which is a scientific affect of hardening rubber and increasing its velocity of speed to produce fire. Something luffys does with red hawk etc.

He has always used science to display fruit abilities
 
H

Herrera95

Except the explanation of ice says exactly what it is water in a solid state. It's the same with ace. Why can't ace produce magma even though he fire? Why can't akainu produce fire even though he is magma (which is earth and fire/heat).

You see why your point is dumb?

Ok now that's that's cleared up we can move on
Ice is solid Water. Magma is not solid Fire. You failed to make your point.
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I know what you were discussing... Logias dont turn into a different form of their element.
They simply get their bodies destroyed and rebuild them by creating their own element out of nothingness.
They can do that even if you attack them with haki but their original body would still be injured in that case.
No. We are discussing if Aokiji DF makes sense or not be a Logia.
 
Nah, I think you are being very dishonest here. When Oda shows you Nami noticing that heat does work against a snow woman who screams in pain because of it, the message he's conveying is that Monet was hurt by it. Because yes, Monet is screaming in pain: if you check the Japanese version you will notice she's screaming in the exact same way as when she's slashed by both Tashigi and Zoro and bleeds; is she also reacting with surprise when she's cut and bleeding?

On top of this, Monet can be delayed with attacks that don't work on her; hence why Robin breaks her body into pieces in order to stop her for a moment (in a similar fashion to other logia being stopped for a moment). But when Robin tore her apart Monet didn't scream in pain, nor she was quite serious and upset while looking at the hole on her body, nor was it ever stressed that it "does work" (compared to what...?) in quite a reasonable way since she was melting snow with heat, not simply breaking it, in an elemmental interaction that reminds of rubber and electricity or water and sand.
There is zero indication that Monet took any damage from that, so the only one who is dishonest here is you.
There were no bruises, no burn marks, no blood nor any other indications of damage done to her arm...
Arguieng that a character saying "Kyaah", in response to their arm being blown off, has to mean they were injured, is nonsensical.
In this panel where Monet thinks she got cut by Haki and is dead she doesn't say anything... so you don't have a point.
Regardless you would only have a point anyways if literally every character in the series would only ever have screamed when taking damage but i guarantee you if you look through the entire manga there are multiple instances disproven that take.


I don't think this is how logia bodies work. Jozu smashed Kuzan to pieces with haki and he wasn't gone. Rayleigh slashed through Kizaru's light upper body and he wasn't beheaded for it. Both had their real body affected yet the damage done to their elemmental body wasn't comparable to the actual damage their flesh suffered.
First off when Aokiji bled from his mouth that was the indication that he took damage, nothing similar happened to Monet.
2ndly Aokiji's ice form was smashed to pieces as a result of the force created by Jozu's tackle.
Jozu attacked Aokiji with haki on a certain point of the latter's body and only that part of his body that he made contact with was no longer intangible and took damage whereas the rest of Aokiji's body was still intangible ice which again, only broke as a result of the force being used.
Also a wild comparison anyways since Nami's heatball literally worked like an explosion that blew up Monet's arm from inside out, those attacks and what results they would have are not really comparable.

Rayleigh never slashed through Kizaru's whole body lol.
Kizaru dodged the attack in the last moment and therefore Rayleigh only caught his cheek.

Many things wrong here.

1) Zoro didn't cut Monet in half with haki, she didn't even bleed a little bit from that. He simply slashed her snow body and defeated here with sheer fear. No haki involved.

2) Logia users whose elemmental body is utterly destroyed by haki attacks are perfectly capable of regenerating from it; again, check Kuzan versus Jozu and Kizaru versus Rayleigh and Jozu versus Crocodile (only his legs keep their shape) for comparison.

3) It took some panels, but Monet's body did regenerate from Zoro cutting her in half. She then tries to attack him and Tashigi puts her down for good.

4) An intangible body that is slashed without haki may still not disperse around the cut; check Kizaru versus Apoo for comparison.


While I appreciate the effort, I don't trust Oda following real world logic for his counters in such a hard way. So it's pointless to argue from them, he's way more simplistic, hence why Luffy's rubber wasn't melted in front of whatever millions of volts Enel stroke him with.
1. It doesn't matter whether haki was used or not since Monet's body reacted in the same way it would have IF it had actually been attacked with haki.
Monet was unable to put herself together after the attack, even so haki wasn't used, simply because she though and therefore her body reacted AS IF Haki was used.
Whereas she instantly rebuilt her arm against Nami and even further transformed.

2. Depending on the damage, yes Logias can rebuild themselves from damage done by haki.
Has nothing to do with this discussion though cause the damage we are talking about blew up her entire arm.
If Monet's arm would have been blown up with heatball + haki it would have been gone.
No logia user in the series has ever had his whole body or a body part exploded by haki, and it's also never gonna happen cause that would mean instadeath for the logia user.

3. Against Nami she instantly rebuild her arm and transformed.
Against Zoro she was unable to regenerate because her body reacted in a way as if it had been cut in half with haki.

4. Snow and Light are extremely different elements/materials behaving extremely differently under different circumstances... and therefore however they may react to damage being done is not comparable at all.

Oda has followed real world physic laws pretty well so far.
It's a misconception that Luffy should have been burned by the lightning anyways.
Everybody else who was hit by Enel's lightning did in fact get burned by it.
 
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Finalbeta

Hero of Albion
I warmly hope Oda won't sleep on the admirals and make sure all of them display compelling awakening powers 🤔 or at the very least the vast majority of them do
 
Ice is solid Water. Magma is not solid Fire. You failed to make your point.
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No. We are discussing if Aokiji DF makes sense or not be a Logia.
Ice is solid water

Magma is fire applied with earth.

Which is why your point was dumb since water in liquid or solid is still water. And thus still an element.

It does matter if fire is nontangible or if it is tangible in the form of magma it is still an element which is what logia abilities are about.

Which is why your point was dumb

Let's further expose the flaws.

Sand is an element since its soft earth

Monet is a logia user even though she is also using icy water in the form of snow.

Even that swamp dude thay stowed on luffys ship is a logia user even though swamp is liquified earth

All which is why your point was dumb
 
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