General & Others Is anyone here not scared of more people rivaling/surpassing Zoro and Sanji in strength?

#41
:suresure::suresure:

What did Oda do to you?

Anyways, it doesn't really matter, and yeah you gotta have a fucked up view to have read one piece and think oda would sideline sanji
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:okay:

Jimbei's strongest attack couldn't one shot Wadatsumi

Sanji's did

I never thought at any point jimbei was stronger than sanji

It was really just obvious and anyone thinking otherwise is either a huge jimbei stan or a sanji hater

The story is ridiculously simple, people's bias just make them too dumb to actually understand it

It was always luffy > zoro>sanji

No matter your views or preferences, it's just how it's always been and always will be
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In WCI sanji was folding mid tiers

Jimbei was confronting a starving big mom

The M3 were always stronger than any new member, only exception is Yamato because of her parralels with oden


But even she is gonna get outshined eventually
Oda didn’t do anything to me I used to be a huge Sanji fan. But Oda did make Sanji look weak in comparison to Zoro and Luffy. If you need me to explain this is how:

1. Oda made Sanji train with Ivankov while Zoro & Luffy trained with Mihawk and Rayleigh respectively. Ivankov isn’t even comparable to them.

2. Oda made Sanji get his leg cracked by Vergo which made which made him look weak because his legs are his main weapon and Vergos main weapon isn’t his legs. Mean while Zoro low diffed Pica who Im has the same rank has Vergo.

3. Oda made Sanji get neg diffed by Doffy in the same arc Luffy defeated Doffy & clashed with Fuji and Zoro clashed with Fujitora who told the other marines to move because Zoros dangerous.

4. Sanji didn’t defeat judge in WCI because he was soft. He couldn’t save Luffy from the Big Mom Pirates. He even baked big Mom a cake. Meanwhile Luffy is fighting Katakuri and wins.

All of this things changed my opinion on Sanji. I don’t think Oda sidelined Sanji I just think he made him a lot wekaker than Zoro and Luffy. I also think his lack of good training during the time skip was evident in the power up he got. Zoro and Luffy both got power ups that they had to earn. ACoA & ACoC Sanjis power ups were just genetic. He didn’t earn them at all, I’m not taking anything away from him for that I’m just saying i think that’s why TS training wasn’t as important for Sanji.

Sanji didn’t one shot Wadatsumi if Jinbei also hit him. That’s not a one shot.

It has always been Luffy>Zoro>Sanji however, Zoro has been closer to Luffy than Sanji for majority of the story and especially post TS.

Sanji didn’t surpass Jinbei until he got his power ups.
 
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B

Ballel

#42
The premise of this thread is pointless as the m3 will never change.
Oda makes characters as strong as he wants, we had this before with Robin, Franky and Jinbe being stronger before joining.
For Oda the
Goku-inspired child hero—eastern manliness representative—European manliness representative
are his peak characters and he will keep it this way.
 
#46
Oda didn’t do anything to me I used to be a huge Sanji fan. But Oda did make Sanji look weak in comparison to Zoro and Luffy. If you need me to explain this is how:

1. Oda made Sanji train with Ivankov while Zoro & Luffy trained with Mihawk and Rayleigh respectively. Ivankov isn’t even comparable to them.

2. Oda made Sanji get his leg cracked by Vergo which made which made him look weak because his legs are his main weapon and Vergos main weapon isn’t his legs. Mean while Zoro low diffed Pica who Im has the same rank has Vergo.

3. Oda made Sanji get neg diffed by Doffy in the same arc Luffy defeated Doffy & clashed with Fuji and Zoro clashed with Fujitora who told the other marines to move because Zoros dangerous.

4. Sanji didn’t defeat judge in WCI because he was soft. He couldn’t save Luffy from the Big Mom Pirates. He even baked big Mom a cake. Meanwhile Luffy is fighting Katakuri and wins.

All of this things changed my opinion on Sanji. I don’t think Oda sidelined Sanji I just think he made him a lot wekaker than Zoro and Luffy. I also think his lack of good training during the time skip was evident in the power up he got. Zoro and Luffy both got power ups that they had to earn. ACoA & ACoC Sanjis power ups were just genetic. He didn’t earn them at all, I’m not taking anything away from him for that I’m just saying i think that’s why TS training wasn’t as important for Sanji.

Sanji didn’t one shot Wadatsumi if Jinbei also hit him. That’s not a one shot.

It has always been Luffy>Zoro>Sanji however, Zoro has been closer to Luffy than Sanji for majority of the story and especially post TS.

Sanji didn’t surpass Jinbei until he got his power ups.
1 Sanji is tiers above Ivankov at this point

He's naturally gifted and smarter than average, he doesn't need a top tier teacher, he just needed to know the basic about haki and he was good to go

2 oda made sanji crack his leg against vergo after having sanji, usopp and nami specifically state that nami got badly wounded in his body

Vergo cracked a wounded man's leg, accumulated damage is a thing you know, sanji didn't use haki while vergo used tekkai besides sanji speed blitzed and overpowered vergo, he was dominating the fight while vergo didn't land a single hit on him

3 Sanji was defeated by doffy for the same reasons luffy was knocked out by apoo, he didn't know his abilities

4 sanji's arc was about character, we already had a conversation about the queen fight where you complained that sanji's fight was too easy and that sanji struggled more psychologically than physically

It's the point, sanji could've low diffed judge back then, he just held back because that's the point of sanji's character, he holds back a lot, even against vergo and doffy he didn't go all out, heck he never went all out at any point of the story and likely never will until the end of the series, for instance he always could use ifrit jambe ever since the timskip but willingly didn't


That's what makes him the complete opposite of zoro, where as zoro needs to train to become stronger, sanji needs to face his mental struggles to unlock his full strength


You gotta put things in context man, obviously when you take situations like vergo cracking sanji's leg out of it's context you think he's weak
 
#47
1 Sanji is tiers above Ivankov at this point

He's naturally gifted and smarter than average, he doesn't need a top tier teacher, he just needed to know the basic about haki and he was good to go

2 oda made sanji crack his leg against vergo after having sanji, usopp and nami specifically state that nami got badly wounded in his body

Vergo cracked a wounded man's leg, accumulated damage is a thing you know, sanji didn't use haki while vergo used tekkai besides sanji speed blitzed and overpowered vergo, he was dominating the fight while vergo didn't land a single hit on him

3 Sanji was defeated by doffy for the same reasons luffy was knocked out by apoo, he didn't know his abilities

4 sanji's arc was about character, we already had a conversation about the queen fight where you complained that sanji's fight was too easy and that sanji struggled more psychologically than physically

It's the point, sanji could've low diffed judge back then, he just held back because that's the point of sanji's character, he holds back a lot, even against vergo and doffy he didn't go all out, heck he never went all out at any point of the story and likely never will until the end of the series, for instance he always could use ifrit jambe ever since the timskip but willingly didn't


That's what makes him the complete opposite of zoro, where as zoro needs to train to become stronger, sanji needs to face his mental struggles to unlock his full strength


You gotta put things in context man, obviously when you take situations like vergo cracking sanji's leg out of it's context you think he's weak
1. I agree Sanji is stronger than Ivankov now. Sanji is smart outside of battle. I would argue that Luffy and Zoro both more combat Savy than Luffy.

2. Saying Vergo used tekkai is head cannon the manga doesn’t say that at all. Sanji being hurt from Nami being in his body doesn’t have anything to do with his bone being cracked. His bones weren’t weakened.

3. Luffy didn’t know Doffys abilities either. Doffy tried to parasite Luffy to and Luffy broke it.

4. Sanji didn’t have IJ until his Queen fight. He needed the exoskeleton to be able to use it. Sanji also didn’t overcome his mental issues, he destroyed the raid suit because he didn’t over come it. Sanji just got lucky that wearing the RS a couple of times unlocked his Germa genes for him. Also Sanjis full strength is there now and Zoro is still closer to Luffy.
 
#49
1. I agree Sanji is stronger than Ivankov now. Sanji is smart outside of battle. I would argue that Luffy and Zoro both more combat Savy than Luffy.

2. Saying Vergo used tekkai is head cannon the manga doesn’t say that at all. Sanji being hurt from Nami being in his body doesn’t have anything to do with his bone being cracked. His bones weren’t weakened.

3. Luffy didn’t know Doffys abilities either. Doffy tried to parasite Luffy to and Luffy broke it.

4. Sanji didn’t have IJ until his Queen fight. He needed the exoskeleton to be able to use it. Sanji also didn’t overcome his mental issues, he destroyed the raid suit because he didn’t over come it. Sanji just got lucky that wearing the RS a couple of times unlocked his Germa genes for him. Also Sanjis full strength is there now and Zoro is still closer to Luffy.
2 vergo did use tekkai, even sanji mentioned that his body is like a mass of iron


2 nami was badly hurt in sanji's body. He was wounded, accumulated damage is a thing and it's the reason sanji's leg was cracked


3 luffy saw doffy's powers in action (the bird cage) he knew they were strings


4 sanji said he could use hotter flammes without suffering from side effects thanks to his exoskeleton and trained haki, meaning he always could use ifrit jambe, he just didn't because he would've destroyed his leg in the process, but he could've used it at any point although it would've wounded him

And sanji did overcome his mental issues, tf are you on? Lmao "he didn't overcome them" he destroyed the raid suit because that's what luffy would've wanted him to

His mental issues were that he always felt the need to sacrifice himself to be useful to the people close to him, by not sacrificing himself despite being fully ready to, and doing exactly what luffy would've wanted instead of taking a decision that luffy would've disliked even if it was for selfless purposes, he showed growth and now fully trusts luffy's judgement more than he trusts his own moral code, he also fully accepted that he is not human anymore and that he can't change what he is

How TF did you get that sanji didn't overcome his mental issues

He literally said "the difference between you and me is that I accepted myself and found my resolve, I'm not the same man you fought on the live floor"

Destroying the raid suit means he overcame them, I legit don't understand how you thought he didn't overcome them



And how deluded can you be to think zoro is closer to luffy than he is to sanji?
 
#50
2 vergo did use tekkai, even sanji mentioned that his body is like a mass of iron


2 nami was badly hurt in sanji's body. He was wounded, accumulated damage is a thing and it's the reason sanji's leg was cracked


3 luffy saw doffy's powers in action (the bird cage) he knew they were strings


4 sanji said he could use hotter flammes without suffering from side effects thanks to his exoskeleton and trained haki, meaning he always could use ifrit jambe, he just didn't because he would've destroyed his leg in the process, but he could've used it at any point although it would've wounded him

And sanji did overcome his mental issues, tf are you on? Lmao "he didn't overcome them" he destroyed the raid suit because that's what luffy would've wanted him to

His mental issues were that he always felt the need to sacrifice himself to be useful to the people close to him, by not sacrificing himself despite being fully ready to, and doing exactly what luffy would've wanted instead of taking a decision that luffy would've disliked even if it was for selfless purposes, he showed growth and now fully trusts luffy's judgement more than he trusts his own moral code, he also fully accepted that he is not human anymore and that he can't change what he is

How TF did you get that sanji didn't overcome his mental issues

He literally said "the difference between you and me is that I accepted myself and found my resolve, I'm not the same man you fought on the live floor"

Destroying the raid suit means he overcame them, I legit don't understand how you thought he didn't overcome them



And how deluded can you be to think zoro is closer to luffy than he is to sanji?
He is closer to Luffy than he is to Sanji, even if Luffy is stronger, I think Oda made it clear when he had Luffy and Zoro acquire the same power. You can headcanon all you want but this is the reality, at the end of the story Zoro will be only behind Luffy, for Sanji I don't think so, Sanji evolution will be over when he is a little stronger than Katakuri/King but not at a level where he can fight equally vs Yonko/Admiral, that will be his maximum possible achievement, stall an admiral for a while (admiral not Akainu).
 
#51
He is closer to Luffy than he is to Sanji, even if Luffy is stronger, I think Oda made it clear when he had Luffy and Zoro acquire the same power. You can headcanon all you want but this is the reality, at the end of the story Zoro will be only behind Luffy, for Sanji I don't think so, Sanji evolution will be over when he is a little stronger than Katakuri/King but not at a level where he can fight equally vs Yonko/Admiral, that will be his maximum possible achievement, stall an admiral for a while (admiral not Akainu).
:seriously:

Luffy and zoro both have coc

Luffy can use it for hours

Zoro can only use it for 5 minutes because of enma

Luffy has internal destruction, future sight and overall better stats than zoro in every category aside from endurance


No matter what you think, it's already obvious how strong sanji is

He's already stronger than king due to him essentially be an improved version, he's faster and has better hax such as being able to heal ridiculously fast and he can use hotter flammes than king, king's flammes aren't hot enough to emit lightning

The only categories in which king is better than sanji are durability and raw strength, and even durability is not something permanent for king because when his flammes are off his durability is that of a normal ancient zoan aka lower than sanji's

Deluding yourself into believing that sanji is weaker than a character who is literally a weaker and less efficient version of himself just because king fought zoro, or that zoro is closer to luffy because he has the same ability that btw puts zoro on life support everytime he uses it

Won't change how the story is

You're essentially just hitting a wall, come on bro at this point you're just willingly trying to get disappointed by underrating sanji
 
#53
2 vergo did use tekkai, even sanji mentioned that his body is like a mass of iron


2 nami was badly hurt in sanji's body. He was wounded, accumulated damage is a thing and it's the reason sanji's leg was cracked


3 luffy saw doffy's powers in action (the bird cage) he knew they were strings


4 sanji said he could use hotter flammes without suffering from side effects thanks to his exoskeleton and trained haki, meaning he always could use ifrit jambe, he just didn't because he would've destroyed his leg in the process, but he could've used it at any point although it would've wounded him

And sanji did overcome his mental issues, tf are you on? Lmao "he didn't overcome them" he destroyed the raid suit because that's what luffy would've wanted him to

His mental issues were that he always felt the need to sacrifice himself to be useful to the people close to him, by not sacrificing himself despite being fully ready to, and doing exactly what luffy would've wanted instead of taking a decision that luffy would've disliked even if it was for selfless purposes, he showed growth and now fully trusts luffy's judgement more than he trusts his own moral code, he also fully accepted that he is not human anymore and that he can't change what he is

How TF did you get that sanji didn't overcome his mental issues

He literally said "the difference between you and me is that I accepted myself and found my resolve, I'm not the same man you fought on the live floor"

Destroying the raid suit means he overcame them, I legit don't understand how you thought he didn't overcome them



And how deluded can you be to think zoro is closer to luffy than he is to sanji?
Everything that you said is a reach. Sanji is objectively weaker than Zoro. Kaido stated only a handful of the very strongest can have ACoC. Zoro and Luffy have it. They are some of the strongest Sanji isn’t and won’t be EoS. Sanji is just now making the top 30.

Zoro has been commander level since FI and so has Luffy. Without Enma Zoro beats Queen and Jack.
 
#54
The premise of this thread is pointless as the m3 will never change.
Oda makes characters as strong as he wants, we had this before with Robin, Franky and Jinbe being stronger before joining.
For Oda the
Goku-inspired child hero—eastern manliness representative—European manliness representative
are his peak characters and he will keep it this way.
Agains, what does it matter if it changes or not? It’s not like they’ll stop being friends whether it is or isn’t, no?
 
#55
:seriously:

Luffy and zoro both have coc

Luffy can use it for hours

Zoro can only use it for 5 minutes because of enma

Luffy has internal destruction, future sight and overall better stats than zoro in every category aside from endurance


No matter what you think, it's already obvious how strong sanji is

He's already stronger than king due to him essentially be an improved version, he's faster and has better hax such as being able to heal ridiculously fast and he can use hotter flammes than king, king's flammes aren't hot enough to emit lightning

The only categories in which king is better than sanji are durability and raw strength, and even durability is not something permanent for king because when his flammes are off his durability is that of a normal ancient zoan aka lower than sanji's

Deluding yourself into believing that sanji is weaker than a character who is literally a weaker and less efficient version of himself just because king fought zoro, or that zoro is closer to luffy because he has the same ability that btw puts zoro on life support everytime he uses it

Won't change how the story is

You're essentially just hitting a wall, come on bro at this point you're just willingly trying to get disappointed by underrating sanji
Sanji stronger than King? How? At best he is more fast, but that mode of Sanji is not durable. Zoro is a swordman, his fight are all short, that is the nature of a sword fight, the output of damage that he can bring out is on different dimension, now with advanced conqueror even more so. The fact that Zoro can fight 5 minute with Enma is because he has just started using, it's the same with Sanji exoscheleton, he has just discovered so it's not mastered completely.
 
#55
Nah Zoro and Sanji will always be the number 2 and 3 of the SHP and be top tiers EOS
Again, what does it matter?
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When Yamato joining the crew she will be nerfed just like Robin. So Sanji will be fine being the third stronger of the SH.
So it’s important to make the others worse and more pathetic just so Sanji and the others look better? Are some scared of that not happening?
 
#57
Sanji stronger than King? How? At best he is more fast, but that mode of Sanji is not durable. Zoro is a swordman, his fight are all short, that is the nature of a sword fight, the output of damage that he can bring out is on different dimension, now with advanced conqueror even more so. The fact that Zoro can fight 5 minute with Enma is because he has just started using, it's the same with Sanji exoscheleton, he has just discovered so it's not mastered completely.
King is an ancient zoan, that's it, sanji's durability is clearly higher than that of a normal ancient zoan and he has a healing factor on top of it

And yes, zoro will master it, it doesn't change that his current strength is still not that close to luffy's
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What does it matter if it’s permanent or not? It’s not like they’ll stop being friends whether it is or isn’t, no?
It doesn't really matter, but oda clearly wants to keep it
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Everything that you said is a reach. Sanji is objectively weaker than Zoro. Kaido stated only a handful of the very strongest can have ACoC. Zoro and Luffy have it. They are some of the strongest Sanji isn’t and won’t be EoS. Sanji is just now making the top 30.

Zoro has been commander level since FI and so has Luffy. Without Enma Zoro beats Queen and Jack.
Yes, sanji is weaker than zoro always will be, just not by a large margin, he always was and always will be close to his level

Sanji is already in the top 20

And not having adv coc doesn't mean not being a top tier

The admirals are a thing
 
#58
Been seeing some people talk about Zoro and Sanji's power-ups and being glad they got them because they were scared of people like Jinbe or Yamato being too strong. I mean, even after how their fights with Queen and King turned out, instead of being glad about her achievements, people use that as if to try to make other characters like inferior as if out of desperation to make Zoro and Sanji look the best, even if it means saying things like Jinbe not deserving to be part of the crew because he destroy their monster wing dynamic or that he's not good enough to deserve a power-up.

As much as people are free to express their opinions, I myself feel like expressing this much: that if people feel the need to keep reinforcing how strong Zoro and Sanji are because they're afraid they're going to be seen as worthless, and even so much as feel the need to downplay, or even mudsling, other characters to make Zoro and Sanji look better, then I'll have to say that I'm sure that goes to show how fragile their reputations are, whether as right-handers, wings, or whatever.
What's sad is it shows people can't be patient either.

"Waaaah Jinbe joined he's a danger to Sanji!!!"
"Waaaah Yamato had a better handle on CoC than Zoro right now she's a danger to Zoro!!!"

Then both had their fights and completely showed why they will always be Luffy's #2 and #3.

Even conquerors isn't an indication of "power". Yamato has a ton of things going for her, Conquerors, Ogre, Mythical Zoan. But she was being overwhelmed by Kaido until Luffy came along. As an Ogre and combined with her power, she has innately high defense like Kaido, but nothing has propelled her above Sanji or Zoro at this point anyway if she joins.
 
#59
King is an ancient zoan, that's it, sanji's durability is clearly higher than that of a normal ancient zoan and he has a healing factor on top of it

And yes, zoro will master it, it doesn't change that his current strength is still not that close to luffy's
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It doesn't really matter, but oda clearly wants to keep it
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Yes, sanji is weaker than zoro always will be, just not by a large margin, he always was and always will be close to his level

Sanji is already in the top 20

And not having adv coc doesn't mean not being a top tier

The admirals are a thing
Admirals are a thing because there is one who can move at light speed, one who can can upon metheorite from the sky and bring up an entire country of scrap and create a weapon, one who can permanently freeze half a island and the other who can permanently change it in a volcanic area
 
#60
Admirals are a thing because there is one who can move at light speed, one who can can upon metheorite from the sky and bring up an entire country of scrap and create a weapon, one who can permanently freeze half a island and the other who can permanently change it in a volcanic area
And you know many characters who can cover a whole giant in flammes and emit lightning through the sheer heat of their flammes?
 
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