General & Others Is anyone here not scared of more people rivaling/surpassing Zoro and Sanji in strength?

[Sir Yasheen]

Again, what does it matter?

Post automatically merged: Jan 15, 2022

So it’s important to make the others worse and more pathetic just so Sanji and the others look better? Are some scared of that not happening?

Because they’re Luffys wings. They’re his most trusted confidants and his top crew mates. It matters hence why it’ll never change

 

[Electricmastro]

What's sad is it shows people can't be patient either.

"Waaaah Jinbe joined he's a danger to Sanji!!!"
"Waaaah Yamato had a better handle on CoC than Zoro right now she's a danger to Zoro!!!"

Then both had their fights and completely showed why they will always be Luffy's #2 and #3.

Even conquerors isn't an indication of "power". Yamato has a ton of things going for her, Conquerors, Ogre, Mythical Zoan. But she was being overwhelmed by Kaido until Luffy came along. As an Ogre and combined with her power, she has innately high defense like Kaido, but nothing has propelled her above Sanji or Zoro at this point anyway if she joins.

And again, what does it matter who's #2 or #3 or not?

Post automatically merged: Jan 15, 2022

Because they’re Luffys wings. They’re his most trusted confidants and his top crew mates. It matters hence why it’ll never change

So some wing nickname is indicative of it being necessary to trust others less and put others as inferior when placing them at the bottom below #2 and #3? Are you trying to say Zoro and Sanji should be there to make others look bad then because of some random nickname then?

 

[Subakusoso]

And you know many characters who can cover a whole giant in flammes and emit lightning through the sheer heat of their flammes?

I think the feats are not exactly of the same level. Admiral DF, like advanced conqueror brought to Roger and WB level, are powers that can be genuinely be called natural disaster of island proportions, I don't think Sanji will ever be capable of doing that much of destruction. Zoro was capable of cut in half a statue bigger that a city before Advcoc, Luffy with the KKG has done the same at the end of the fight vs Doflamingo, you do the math.

 

[Ask D question]

I think the feats are not exactly of the same level. Admiral DF, like advanced conqueror brought to Roger and WB level, are powers that can be genuinely be called natural disaster of island proportions, I don't think Sanji will ever be capable of doing that much of destruction. Zoro was capable of cut in half a statue bigger that a city before Advcoc, Luffy with the KKG has done the same at the end of the fight vs Doflamingo, you do the math.

He has the potential to cause that much destruction even currently

He could coat wadasumi in flammes, wadasumi was stated to be mountain sized

And he sent queen flying through sheer strength, the same queen who could damage big mom thanks to his weight


It takes atleast a mountain level ap to damage big mom

 

[Jew D. Boy]

I can honestly say I fear no cartoon character, I know I can beat them all up

 

[Paperchampion23]

And again, what does it matter who's #2 or #3 or not?

Post automatically merged: Jan 15, 2022

So some wing nickname is indicative of it being necessary to trust others less and put others as inferior when placing them at the bottom below #2 and #3? Are you trying to say Zoro and Sanji should be there to make others look bad then because of some random nickname then?

I think its just standard because that's how it's been for 1000 chapters. Zoro and Sanji will always be Luffy's two main men as they have been

 

[MarineHQ]

No. Both are completely fine.

 

[Subakusoso]

He has the potential to cause that much destruction even currently

He could coat wadasumi in flammes, wadasumi was stated to be mountain sized

And he sent queen flying through sheer strength, the same queen who could damage big mom thanks to his weight


It takes atleast a mountain level ap to damage big mom

Queen who go all out with his best move to hit Big Mom that don't use haki on the head and all the effect that bring forth is put her to sleep for about 1 minute?

 

[Peroroncino]

Zoro was never at risk of being surpassed in strength by any new nakama at any point in the story.

 

[Ask D question]

Queen who go all out with his best move to hit Big Mom that don't use haki on the head and all the effect that bring forth is put her to sleep for about 1 minute?

You think that was all out?

He didn't even use his hybrid form, lasers or germa tech


He just jumped on her, and he damaged her, no matter how you look at it it's impressive nonetheless

 

[Lor D. Coast]

Been seeing some people talk about Zoro and Sanji's power-ups and being glad they got them because they were scared of people like Jinbe or Yamato being too strong. I mean, even after how their fights with Queen and King turned out, instead of being glad about her achievements, people use that as if to try to make other characters like inferior as if out of desperation to make Zoro and Sanji look the best, even if it means saying things like Jinbe not deserving to be part of the crew because he destroy their monster wing dynamic or that he's not good enough to deserve a power-up.

As much as people are free to express their opinions, I myself feel like expressing this much: that if people feel the need to keep reinforcing how strong Zoro and Sanji are because they're afraid they're going to be seen as worthless, and even so much as feel the need to downplay, or even mudsling, other characters to make Zoro and Sanji look better, then I'll have to say that I'm sure that goes to show how fragile their reputations are, whether as right-handers, wings, or whatever.

There's no one even remotely close to rival Zoro.

Zoro is surpassing Oden in this arc, and we all know that mindbroken candytards will start claiming that Judgeji is Oden level, that's how they function.

 

[cleanmrpostman]

Sanji was defeated by doffy for the same reasons luffy was knocked out by apoo, he didn't know his abilities

This is a very interesting aspect of one piece I feel illustrates the differences between the M3 really well:

Luffy is allowed to lose in smaller interactions like apoo, because later on he will always win during the big final event. Fans like to jump on Zoro or Sanji's smaller fights more in comparison for this reason I think.
Zoro isn't allowed to lose, but he isn't allowed to completely win on huge scales like Luffy, so there're usually conditions thrown in with fights which are always controversial.
Sanji is allowed to lose, and he doesn't need to win. Oda likes to use him more freely in fights depending on the plot's needs, as the fate of Sanji's character isn't on the line if he's humiliated - this typically leads to controversy in powerscaling though, as it makes him seem more inconsistent compared to Luffy or Zoro.

Look at Sanji vs Doffy and then Zoro vs Fujitora. Sanji could get easily brushed to the side and lose, without being able to redeem himself later on. Luffy might lose earlier in an arc, but unlike Sanji, we know he will accomplish a much better feat before the arc's out, so no one really cares if he lost to apoo or queen etc. Zoro on the other hand isn't allowed to lose, whether this is because of how Oda wants us to view him or because of the "I'll never lose again" stuff who knows. So when Zoro clashed with Fujitora, instead of having him brushed aside like Sanji's situation, Zoro was contending. This is why Zoro gets so many wilder claims compared to Sanji, Oda seems to place him in matchups more carefully, while Sanji can have a performance post-ts that has even the most imaginative Sanji fans grasping at straws to justify.

No matter what you think, it's already obvious how strong sanji is

He's already stronger than king due to him essentially be an improved version, he's faster and has better hax such as being able to heal ridiculously fast and he can use hotter flammes than king, king's flammes aren't hot enough to emit lightning

You're right, it is obvious how strong Sanji is: slightly stronger than Queen. He beat queen and that was his limit, like how Zoro beat King and that was his limit. It took a combination of everything sanji had to beat queen and your claims that he's better than King hold no weight.

 

[Ask D question]

This is a very interesting aspect of one piece I feel illustrates the differences between the M3 really well:

Luffy is allowed to lose in smaller interactions like apoo, because later on he will always win during the big final event. Fans like to jump on Zoro or Sanji's smaller fights more in comparison for this reason I think.
Zoro isn't allowed to lose, but he isn't allowed to completely win on huge scales like Luffy, so there're usually conditions thrown in with fights which are always controversial.
Sanji is allowed to lose, and he doesn't need to win. Oda likes to use him more freely in fights depending on the plot's needs, as the fate of Sanji's character isn't on the line if he's humiliated - this typically leads to controversy in powerscaling though, as it makes him seem more inconsistent compared to Luffy or Zoro.

Look at Sanji vs Doffy and then Zoro vs Fujitora. Sanji could get easily brushed to the side and lose, without being able to redeem himself later on. Luffy might lose earlier in an arc, but unlike Sanji, we know he will accomplish a much better feat before the arc's out, so no one really cares if he lost to apoo or queen etc. Zoro on the other hand isn't allowed to lose, whether this is because of how Oda wants us to view him or because of the "I'll never lose again" stuff who knows. So when Zoro clashed with Fujitora, instead of having him brushed aside like Sanji's situation, Zoro was contending. This is why Zoro gets so many wilder claims compared to Sanji, Oda seems to place him in matchups more carefully, while Sanji can have a performance post-ts that has even the most imaginative Sanji fans grasping at straws to justify.



You're right, it is obvious how strong Sanji is: slightly stronger than Queen. He beat queen and that was his limit, like how Zoro beat King and that was his limit. It took a combination of everything sanji had to beat queen and your claims that he's better than King hold no weight.

Except that everytime sanji loses it's justified

I legit didn't think people thought so poorly of him until I got on this forum and I'm constantly like "did people actually read the Manga as me?"

Sanji never lost to vergo, and he still had the upper hand, no one is grasping at straws to justify sanji's supposed Ls

The author himself did that

Sanji cracked his leg against => the author explained a few chapters before that sanji is heavily wounded

Sanji "lost" to doffy => the author writes sanji being surprised by law's explanation of doffy's power, implying that had he known of his powers he would've put more of a fight

Sanji's loses are always justified, and oda always redeems him later on

Like him cracking his leg against vergo only to become one of the most durable characters in the series

And no, sanji isn't slightly stronger, he's currently stronger by a significantly large margin

Sanji used ifrit jambe versions of very basic attacks + bœuf burst who is a 2.0 version of mutton shot

He didn't use an ifrit jambe version of attacks such as anti manner kick course, hell memories or flambage shot

My claims that sanji is stronger than king have actual arguments other than "zoro struggled against king, that must mean he slaps sanji no diff"

King's flammes are not as hot as sanji's which is explicitly shown by the fact that sanji's flammes emit lightning while king's do not

King is not as fast sanji even in his speed mod because we can scale sanji's speed above Marco's due to the fact that queen who could see Marco's attacks coming couldn't see sanji's, and we saw king getting blitzed by Marco


King in his speed mod is not as durable or endurant as sanji due to sanji's newfound durability as well as healing factor


The only categories that king has above sanji are raw strength and durability and durability is not all the time due to the fact that in a hypothetical fight, king would need to go in his speed mod to even keep up with sanji

Sanji is overall a more balanced version of King with better ap and speed

 

[Sir Yasheen]

This is a very interesting aspect of one piece I feel illustrates the differences between the M3 really well:

Luffy is allowed to lose in smaller interactions like apoo, because later on he will always win during the big final event. Fans like to jump on Zoro or Sanji's smaller fights more in comparison for this reason I think.
Zoro isn't allowed to lose, but he isn't allowed to completely win on huge scales like Luffy, so there're usually conditions thrown in with fights which are always controversial.
Sanji is allowed to lose, and he doesn't need to win. Oda likes to use him more freely in fights depending on the plot's needs, as the fate of Sanji's character isn't on the line if he's humiliated - this typically leads to controversy in powerscaling though, as it makes him seem more inconsistent compared to Luffy or Zoro.

Look at Sanji vs Doffy and then Zoro vs Fujitora. Sanji could get easily brushed to the side and lose, without being able to redeem himself later on. Luffy might lose earlier in an arc, but unlike Sanji, we know he will accomplish a much better feat before the arc's out, so no one really cares if he lost to apoo or queen etc. Zoro on the other hand isn't allowed to lose, whether this is because of how Oda wants us to view him or because of the "I'll never lose again" stuff who knows. So when Zoro clashed with Fujitora, instead of having him brushed aside like Sanji's situation, Zoro was contending. This is why Zoro gets so many wilder claims compared to Sanji, Oda seems to place him in matchups more carefully, while Sanji can have a performance post-ts that has even the most imaginative Sanji fans grasping at straws to justify.



You're right, it is obvious how strong Sanji is: slightly stronger than Queen. He beat queen and that was his limit, like how Zoro beat King and that was his limit. It took a combination of everything sanji had to beat queen and your claims that he's better than King hold no weight.

This is simply because: If zoro loses, he loses a lot of his character.

All of sanjis “Losses” that people love to bring up, none of them sanji considers a loss because he accomplished what he was fighting for.

Sanji vs Vergo - Vergo runs away and Sanji doesn’t chase him because he was only fighting to defend the G5 and after this fight he literally carries them out to safety.

Sanji vs Doffy - Sanji had no knowledge of his enemy his only goal there was to get the straw hats to safety, which even if Law didn’t intervene he would’ve succeeded in because they would’ve gotten away.

This isn’t about how Oda looks at them powerwise, it’s about how Oda looks at them characteristically:

Luffy - Gets knocked down to get back up. As such Oda will show Luffy getting defeated.
Zoro - Zoro promised to never get knocked down so Oda doesn’t put him in positions to do so
Sanji - Sanji fights to protect others and as long as they’re safe he counts it as a W.

People look for Ls and Ws based on their standard but they never take into consider the actual characters motivation to fight.

 

[Subakusoso]

Before I started to go on Reddit and this forum I didn't think there were people who have the guts to paragonate Sanji to Zoro in terms of strenght, I tought it was pretty clear the difference

 

[superfreak]

Nah Zoro and Sanji will always be the number 2 and 3 of the SHP and be top tiers EOS

do you think that eos sanji will be in the top 10 of the verse, alive or dead of the most powerful? I think so

 

[Sir Yasheen]

do you think that eos sanji will be in the top 10 of the verse, alive or dead of the most powerful? I think so

Oh absolutely.

1. Luffy
2. Imu
3. Blackbeard
4. Zoro
5. Sanji

 

[cleanmrpostman]

Except that everytime sanji loses it's justified

So you're one of those Sanji fans I mentioned. It doesn't matter how 'justified' it is to you, my point was that Oda wouldn't do that to Zoro or Luffy. But your defending of these situations has be thinking maybe you'd prefer they went a bit differently? Or that Oda took better care of handling Sanji matchups like Luffy/Zoro so people were more confident in him?

Sanji cracked his leg against => the author explained a few chapters before that sanji is heavily wounded

Sanji "lost" to doffy => the author writes sanji being surprised by law's explanation of doffy's power, implying that had he known of his powers he would've put more of a fight

I already said. Oda uses Sanji to help tell the story, but he uses him in a variety of ways, including having him lose. Doesn't matter what excuse you find, Sanji lost, at least to Doffy. And as far as Vergo's concerned, Oda could have just not had Sanji clash with him, but showing Sanji as weaker didn't bother him. Zoro's been injured a bunch of times, way more than Sanji was against Vergo, he still wins or puts up a good fight, but the objective was making Vergo seem strong, and Sanji was the 'example'.
Let's face it if Sanji never ran into Vergo, you'd likely say he'd easily have beaten him. But my point is that since Oda seemed to care less about portraying Sanji as super strong at that point in the story (like he would Luffy/Zoro) and more about proving Vergo as a big boss of the arc, fans often question his strength's consistency.
And not knowing Doffy's abilities is a lame excuse; many characters have dynamically overcome unforeseen abilities during fights, including Sanji. Sanji lost to Doffy because he was weaker, it's as simple as that. Zoro losing to king because he didn't know of his abilities is not an excuse for losing for example, and it sure as hell doesn't make it 'justified'.

My claims that sanji is stronger than king have actual arguments other than "zoro struggled against king, that must mean he slaps sanji no diff"

King's flammes are not as hot as sanji's which is explicitly shown by the fact that sanji's flammes emit lightning while king's do not

King is not as fast sanji even in his speed mod because we can scale sanji's speed above Marco's due to the fact that queen who could see Marco's attacks coming couldn't see sanji's, and we saw king getting blitzed by Marco


King in his speed mod is not as durable or endurant as sanji due to sanji's newfound durability as well as healing factor


The only categories that king has above sanji are raw strength and durability and durability is not all the time due to the fact that in a hypothetical fight, king would need to go in his speed mod to even keep up with sanji

Sanji is overall a more balanced version of King with better ap and speed

Yet he struggled against Queen... story doesn't seem to agree with you on these optimistic assumptions. You seem to find the best situation for Sanji in fights, but he isn't Luffy or Zoro, winning isn't as crucial for him.

 

[Ask D question]

So you're one of those Sanji fans I mentioned. It doesn't matter how 'justified' it is to you, my point was that Oda wouldn't do that to Zoro or Luffy. But your defending of these situations has be thinking maybe you'd prefer they went a bit differently? Or that Oda took better care of handling Sanji matchups like Luffy/Zoro so people were more confident in him?



I already said. Oda uses Sanji to help tell the story, but he uses him in a variety of ways, including having him lose. Doesn't matter what excuse you find, Sanji lost, at least to Doffy. And as far as Vergo's concerned, Oda could have just not had Sanji clash with him, but showing Sanji as weaker didn't bother him. Zoro's been injured a bunch of times, way more than Sanji was against Vergo, he still wins or puts up a good fight, but the objective was making Vergo seem strong, and Sanji was the 'example'.
Let's face it if Sanji never ran into Vergo, you'd likely say he'd easily have beaten him. But my point is that since Oda seemed to care less about portraying Sanji as super strong at that point in the story (like he would Luffy/Zoro) and more about proving Vergo as a big boss of the arc, fans often question his strength's consistency.
And not knowing Doffy's abilities is a lame excuse; many characters have dynamically overcome unforeseen abilities during fights, including Sanji. Sanji lost to Doffy because he was weaker, it's as simple as that. Zoro losing to king because he didn't know of his abilities is not an excuse for losing, and it sure as hell doesn't make it 'justified'.



Yet he struggled against Queen... story doesn't seem to agree with you on these optimistic assumptions. You seem to find the best situation for Sanji in fights, but he isn't Luffy or Zoro, winning isn't as crucial for him.

Oda did that to luffy and zoro before

People forget that before the timeskip the strawhats would constantly lose against their opponents before beating them

Remember Lucci vs luffy and zoro?

Or zoro vs Enel?

Luffy vs crocodile round 1 - 2

It's not just justified to me, oda clearly didn't want to imply that sanji at full strength was weak so he always nerfed him

And not really, I like the way oda handles sanji's match ups, yeah it would've been satisfying if he defeated vergo but it's not like I'm disappointed that he didn't given how he was canonicaly nerfed at that point in time and vergo was a pretty big opponent

The problem isn't oda, the problem is how poorly some people read the story

Oda never showed sanji as weaker, you're the one interpreting it that way which is just stupid imo, sanji dominated the fight, vergo never landed a hit on him and sanji even overpowered him in a direct clash before speed blitzing him

He was clearly stronger at that time

You're just objectively wrong because you act as if sanji being injured wasn't heavily highlighted

Oda wanted to show that vergo is no fodder, so he had a nerfed sanji fight him and get damaged doing so

But sanji still had the upper hand the whole fight

I don't understand how you can say that sanji was weaker when sanji did this with a broken leg

Oda didn't portray sanji as weaker lmao

Not knowing doffy's ability means an automatic loss except for high tier or top tiers

Take jozu for instance, he was stronger than doffy but was defeated

Or take luffy vs crocodile, luffy struggled to beat him because he didn't know his weakness



Sanji didn't struggle against queen as zoro did against king and you obviously know it

Zoro is bleeding like crazy, sanji literally left the fight with no damage due to his healing factor and he didn't even use full body flammes attacks that are canonicaly his strongest attacks

 

[Julius]

I don't understand how you can say that sanji was weaker when sanji did this with a broken leg

I love people bringing that up when all Sanji did was feeling a bit of pain and then ignored that for the whole arc and kept doing his thing afterwards, it literally meant nothing.

Not to mention Sanji tanking that huge explosion that Ceasar focused on him.

By the way, Jinbei was never stronger than Sanji post-timeskip, and there are tons of statements and portrayal to showcase that

Yamato isn't stronger than Sanji currently

Adv.CoC delusional wankers are getting bodied already because they literally think giving Usopp Adv.CoC will make him be able to fight Kaido 1vs1 all out.

Giving Adv.CoC to Yamato was Oda's best way of showing that NO ONE will surpass the Monster Trio