Controversial Itachi vs Dolflamingo

[soupongo]

@TheAncientCenturion why are you using databooks that are known to exaggerate pretty much everything?

The only manga statement we have is this

It´s said to be able to block anything, but that´s ultimately just hearsay. No one knows how effective it is except for Itachi. Black zetzu was also twerking at Sasuke´s Kirin being something you can´t dodge, but we know that´s false.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

@TheAncientCenturion why are you using databooks that are known to exaggerate pretty much everything?

The only manga statement we have is this

It´s said to be able to block anything, but that´s ultimately just hearsay. No one knows how effective it is except for Itachi. Black zetzu was also twerking at Sasuke´s Kirin being something you can´t dodge, but we know that´s false.

? Yes they contain hyperbole but the Narut databooks are relatively reliable since Kishimoto takes the time to explain the mechanics of his jutsu. The hyperbole is very evident when it’s present and this manga scan is the exact same thing as the databook lol.

Something Kishimoto has never once hinted at being untrue, btw. It’s only in the fandom that you find people trying to find flaws in it

 

[Sentinel]

So a shield that explicitly changes form to reflect attacks… can’t reflect attacks because you arbitrarily say so? Okay

When are you guys stop taking things literally? Especially when it comes to the databooks?

Here, one:

Temari certainly cannot blow the entire universe away.

I've even found a picture which contains several databook articles:

Another one:

Katakuri has omnipotence according to this one, too?

If we take this literally, Black Zetsu literally stated Sasuke's kirin, basically a lightning bolt, is unavoidable and cannot be blocked:

So Doflamingo turns the ground into strings, pulls Itachi out of his Susannoo and beheads him. Because apparently, lightning is something which cannot be blocked or evaded by these characters, right? So Itachi won't even see what's killing him.

All of those pictures are a result of 5 min Google search.

This guy really tries to argue Itachi can survive getting a moon dropped to his head when he's pulling out his omnipotent shield which can block or defend attacks from Living Tribunal.

 

[ZenZu]

They can't cope with Itachi's broken abilities

Technically someone who could blow up the planet can just beat Itachi by not attacking only the mirror, a solid attack with any AOE and Itachi can lose to a planet buster.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

When are you guys stop taking things literally? Especially when it comes to the databooks?

Here, one:

Temari certainly cannot blow the entire universe away.

I've even found a picture which contains several databook articles:

Another one:

Katakuri has omnipotence according to this one, too?

If we take this literally, Black Zetsu literally stated Sasuke's kirin, basically a lightning bolt, is unavoidable and cannot be blocked:

So Doflamingo turns the ground into strings, pulls Itachi out of his Susannoo and beheads him. Because apparently, lightning is something which cannot be blocked or evaded by these characters, right? So Itachi won't even see what's killing him.

All of those pictures are a result of 5 min Google search.

This guy really tries to argue Itachi can survive getting a moon dropped to his head when he's pulling out his omnipotent shield which can block or defend attacks from Living Tribunal.

Yes, they contain hyperbole. Nobody argues on the hyperbole part, you’re inventing arguments and getting mad at them.

Look at the mechanical description of jutsu—Yata mirror changes attributes and form in accordance with what it faces. Does this contradict the manga or support it? Supports it, as nothing Kishi wrote invalidates any of this

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

They can't cope with Itachi's broken abilities

Technically someone who could blow up the planet can just beat Itachi by not attacking only the mirror, a solid attack with any AOE and Itachi can lose to a planet buster.

Tbf Kishi dipped into Bleach territory with Itachi when it comes to hax, totally unfitting for the rest of the series. It can be jarring

 

[Sentinel]

Look at the mechanical description of jutsu—Yata mirror changes attributes and form in accordance with what it faces. Does this contradict the manga or support it? Supports it, as nothing Kishi wrote invalidates any of this

Itachi's Yata Mirror deflected a lightning bolt - calm down, man.
There's no evidence it's taking Juubi's nukes, let alone a moon dropping to that shield.

At this point of the manga, we've got pure destructive jutsus like Kirin or a weak Bijuu Dama at best. Certainly strong at this point of the story but it's nowhere comparable to the powercreep in the final saga. I mean, can the shield deflect truth seeking balls? Or Kaguya's ninjutsus?

 

[ZenZu]

Tbf Kishi dipped into Bleach territory with Itachi when it comes to hax, totally unfitting for the rest of the series. It can be jarring

It is, it's hilarious. I love how people are creating limits for it that don't exist because of how broken it is for someone of Itachi's lvl. It is what it is.

Yata mirror is a magic item. Physics don't even apply to it.

 

[soupongo]

? Yes they contain hyperbole but the Narut databooks are relatively reliable since Kishimoto takes the time to explain the mechanics of his jutsu. The hyperbole is very evident when it’s present and this manga scan is the exact same thing as the databook lol.

Something Kishimoto has never once hinted at being untrue, btw. It’s only in the fandom that you find people trying to find flaws in it

The difference is that the databook is removing the rumor element, and saying it as a fact. In the manga, we don´t actually know for a fact that it can block everything, it´s just ¨said to be¨ so. In what context would someone have even made a random weapon in the nardo verse that can block attacks that would destroy stars, lol?

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

Itachi's Yata Mirror deflected a lightning bolt - calm down, man.
There's no evidence it's taking Juubi's nukes, let alone a moon dropping to that shield.

At this point of the manga, we've got pure destructive jutsus like Kirin or a weak Bijuu Dama at best. Certainly strong at this point of the story but it's nowhere comparable to the powercreep in the final saga. I mean, can the shield deflect truth seeking balls? Or Kaguya's ninjutsus?

What does Yata mirror do? It changes form to counter any attack. Do we have any reason, besides personal bias, to think this somehow stops at certain attacks? We do not, Kishimoto never bothered to make us doubt either spirit weapon when he even wrote counters into the Sage Tools, used by the Sage himself.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

The difference is that the databook is removing the rumor element, and saying it as a fact. In the manga, we don´t actually know for a fact that it can block everything, it´s just ¨said to be¨ so. In what context would someone have even made a random weapon in the nardo verse that can block attacks that would destroy stars, lol?

Yes because it’s giving us the facts of how the mirror operates. It’s not speaking from a hypothetical perspective but a factual one. The mirror does xyz which explains how and why it counters each type of attack.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

It is, it's hilarious. I love how people are creating limits for it that don't exist because of how broken it is for someone of Itachi's lvl. It is what it is.

Yata mirror is a magic item. Physics don't even apply to it.

It literally creates the counter to any physics based attacks via physics. It’s the biggest no u

 

[Sentinel]

It is, it's hilarious. I love how people are creating limits for it that don't exist because of how broken it is for someone of Itachi's lvl. It is what it is.

I mean, Yata Mirror might be one of the reasons the no limit fallacy was created in these crossover discussions but think logically for a second. This is a shield said to repel everything; physical or astral bodies, ninjutsus, etc. Good, it can block every attack in Naruto we've seen so far. At this point of the story, we've seen some good ninjutsus and hax abilities but if you take the comparison to multiversal powerscaling, you have dozens of verses with extremely broken abilities, which are so abstract and ridiculous they'd eat Bleach hax to breakfast, would Itachi's shield protect him from all the broken abilities being thrown at him?

We haven't even seen the shield changing its shape when it comes to attacks.

 

[soupongo]

Yes because it’s giving us the facts of how the mirror operates. It’s not speaking from a hypothetical perspective but a factual one. The mirror does xyz which explains how and why it counters each type of attack.

Is saying it´s a perfect shield that can take away the meaning of attacks a factual description of how the power works, or just the pretty standard databook yap session, based on exaggerated statements from the manga? Again, if Kishis intention was that it was a literal god weapon that nothing can deal with, he could just have Zetsu straight up confirm that, instead of leaving it as a rumor.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

Is saying it´s a perfect shield that can take away the meaning of attacks a factual description of how the power works, or just the pretty standard databook yap session, based on exaggerated statements from the manga? Again, if Kishis intention was that it was a literal god weapon that nothing can deal with, he could just have Zetsu straight up confirm that, instead of leaving it as a rumor.

Top left; description and mechanical break down of how the jutsu/item works. It’s not overblown or hyperbolic.

Bottom right red square; Lists specific types of attacks that do not work against it, for the reasons in the top left.

Neither is exaggerations.

 

[Sentinel]

What does Yata mirror do? It changes form to counter any attack.

I'd like to see the "changing form" in the actual manga, tho.
As of now, I've seen these:

Spoiler

Do we have any reason, besides personal bias, to think this somehow stops at certain attacks?

Yes, absolutely, lol.

Firstly, "Its shield is repelling all of Sasuke's attacks."
Secondly, "is said to deflect all things."

Nowhere is it making clear it's some universal shield which is repelling everything from the universe. Because repelling all of Sasuke's attacks doesn't mean he's taking Juubi's Bijuu Dama or even god tier exclusive feats. "It's said" to repel all things is based on a rumor and so far, Itachi's feats do not support how he's repelling all the other stuff.

Heck, we've seen Black Zetsu glazing the shit out of Kirin at the previous chapters, lol.

So no, I have no reason to treat this shield as some unbreakable defence in-verse and I certainly do not treat it as such when we compare different verses. In this case, Itachi is lucky because OP verse is known to have the weakest hax among the HST verse. Compare Itachi with actual broken characters, who're casually changing the laws of physics, and it's looking different...

 

[ZenZu]

I mean, Yata Mirror might be one of the reasons the no limit fallacy was created in these crossover discussions but think logically for a second. This is a shield said to repel everything; physical or astral bodies, ninjutsus, etc. Good, it can block every attack in Naruto we've seen so far. At this point of the story, we've seen some good ninjutsus and hax abilities but if you take the comparison to multiversal powerscaling, you have dozens of verses with extremely broken abilities, which are so abstract and ridiculous they'd eat Bleach hax to breakfast, would Itachi's shield protect him from all the broken abilities being thrown at him?

We haven't even seen the shield changing its shape when it comes to attacks.

Lmfao I don't think anyone is saying Itachi is the most hax individual in all of fiction. Just that...yes yata mirror will eat anything that approaches it without hax of its own.

 

[Sentinel]

Lmfao I don't think anyone is saying Itachi is the most hax individual in all of fiction. Just that...yes yata mirror will eat anything that approaches it without hax of its own.

There's no basis to it. Deflecting Hebi Sasuke's jutsus or deflecting a moon dropping on them are two entirely different levels of power.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

I'd like to see the "changing form" in the actual manga, tho.

You can either take it at Zetsu's face value that it outright deflects all things or that it changes form to deflect all things from the DB. Your pick cowboy.

Firstly, "Its shield is repelling all of Sasuke's attacks."
Secondly, "is said to deflect all things."

Don't be pedantic when the language says the same thing.

Nowhere is it making clear it's some universal shield which is repelling everything from the universe. Because repelling all of Sasuke's attacks doesn't mean he's taking Juubi's Bijuu Dama or even god tier exclusive feats. "It's said" to repel all things is based on a rumor and so far, Itachi's feats do not support how he's repelling all the other stuff.

The only attack it actually deflected was Sasuke's fodder attacks with his katana and shit to be fair. It's the fact that Kishimoto glazed it so hard in the manga, told us how it functions in the DBs and never once tried to contradict these tools, unlike the other pair of sacred tools that Darui found counters towards.

These are treated as bonified and unquestionable in the manga without any hint of them being weaker than advertised.

You can keep the rumor discussions to OP lol, Zetsu is out expositor here, one of the oldest and most knowledgeable characters in Naruto and Kishimotro backs this up by telling us exactly how Yata Mirror operates and performs its spoken function.

If you wanna go to extremes and say it can't stop the big bang sure, but it most definitely is stopping Bijuu dama and very likely juubi dama

o no, I have no reason to treat this shield as some unbreakable defence in-verse

And the only reason you have to doubt it is your own biases out of verse lol, that's the funny part. Kishimoto never gave us any indication it's less than what's presented. Same with Totsuka blade.

Compare Itachi with actual broken characters, who're casually changing the laws of physics, and it's looking different...

I don't care about wanking hax for the sake of it being more hax lol.

 

[ZenZu]

There's no basis to it. Deflecting Hebi Sasuke's jutsus or deflecting a moon dropping on them are two entirely different levels of power.

Doesn't matter. If the moon drops on him he'll die from the yata unable to cover for him, if it's just moon lvl ap it doesn't matter because that's what hax is.... it's called hax for a reason. These are spiritual weapons, that don't even have a physical form.