Versus Battle Jiraiya vs Kisame

Who wins?

  • Jiraiya

  • Kisame

  • Draw/can go either way


Results are only viewable after voting.

Cinera

𝐀𝐬𝐩𝐒𝐫𝐒𝐧𝐠 𝐌𝐚𝐬𝐜𝐑𝐞𝐧𝐧𝐲 𝐏𝐞𝐭
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#1
Location: Turtle island.
Distance: 15 m.
Knowledge: Reputation.
Restrictions: Frog Song.



The above image suggests that Kisame considered Jiraiya on another level entirely from him. To be honest, there's not really good counters to this. From a portrayal standpoint, Jiraiya has the decisive advantage.

However, looking at their individual feats, their skills and abilities and how they match up, I find it difficult to imagine a Jiraiya victory outside of Frog Song (which is restricted here anyways). Odama Rasengans and the like aren't going to cut it against Kisamehada, and Senjutsu would just feed the tailless tailed beast.

Kisame also seems to have the elemental advantage and quite the impressive raw strength given he could easily break out of Yamato's Mokuton restraints while severely drained, had physical strength that surprised Gai, and has regeneration in Kisamehada.

Jiraiya's frogs ultimately seem like chow for Kisame's sharks TBH. I'm sceptical they can contribute much else.

I think Base Kisame > Base Jiraiya, and Kisamehada > Sage Jiraiya (barring Frog Song).


@Draco, @TheAncientCenturion, @comrade, @ZenZu, @Zexion~, @Haoshoku, @Sentinel, @Bogard.

If you want to be added (or removed) from the tag list, just let me know.
 

Bogard

You can't win
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#3
Gamabunta is bigger(in height) than any waterdome Kisame can create, was fast enough to blitz non-fully awakened Shukaku, cut his arm, contend with him in a jutsu and close quarter battle and tank his futton attacks.

Combined with Jiraya's oil/fire attacks, he could create huge combos potentially toasting the blue Suchi. He also has immobilizing techniques to help him in the task like the hairs growth or yomi numa(and doton>suiton). Jiraya wins this in base due to his summons+ninjutsu attacks.

In SM, where they are all amplified(including his taijutsu speed and sending) while also gaining Pa/Ma as partners who are well versed in all frog Katas, senjutsu and sound attacks (with potential deadly genjutsu), it's a stomp.

Also taking too much natural energy might be a bad idea for Kisamehada since he'd turn into stone, so yes manga was correct
 

Gol D. Roger

ΘΆΙ¦Ι› Φ„Ι¨Κ€ΗŸΘΆΙ› Σ„Ι¨ΥΌΙ’
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#4
Inb4 Itachi and Kisame were talking about Kyubi. :kappa:


Hype statements do not hold much value in Naruto, Most of them are either hyperboles or inconsistent. I wouldn't take them for granted.

Just pointing out that Itachi was trolling. A good actor that he is. Non MS Itachi babyshaked Orochimaru after all. :catpole:
Jiraiya isn't half as arrogant and careless as Orochimaru, he'd probably lose against Itachi but not as easily as Orochimaru.
 
#5
Base Gai jobbed to 30% Kisame. And Base Gai one shot Jiraya


Kisame one shot Jiraya :kappa::cheers:


But more seriously:

I think Kisame is slighty weaker than Full Power Jiraya. Jiraya isn't far stronger than Kisame (unlike what Kisame suggest in P1).

I don't know if his power has been retconned but he should not be underestimated.

He also has the largest chakra reserve in Akatsuki, ahead of Nagato himself.

He also (probably since it was off panel) no diffed Ponta, a giant racoon. I don't think giant summon boss will be impossible to defeat for him (even if ofc Bunta is clearly stronger and faster than Ponta).

Base Jiraya felt compelled to immediately activate the SM against Animal Path. Personally I don't find it very glorious. And I consider Kisame>Animal Path.

Kisame has a lot of chakra, he's reactive (dodge Bee's raiton pencil. Whats Jiraya reaction time? Can he react to a Kisame who was reacting to killer bee and Gai (and Gai was able to match Rinnegan Obito during one moment) ), he can block Jiraya's Katon attacks with his Suitons (and even troll him with some giant waves), he can absorb his other ninjutsu with Samehada (who doesn't like heat although in the end Kisame and his sword defeated Roshi the magma user in 1 vs 1), or at worst Samehada will cure him from Jiraya's attacks.

And I think he's capable of defeating at least one giant toads. And in taijutsu I cleary don't see him losing against Base Jiraya.

But there's this jutsu and it make Kisame run away.



But to put things in perspective, Itachi also fled and personally I think he can One Shot Base Jiraya.

And I have the impression that for this jutsu to really trap the opponent, you have to be in a closed place (like in the hotel where Kid Naruto/Sasuke/Jiraya vs Itachi/Kisame were). Here we are on the turtle island (if the turle is on the sea, it can help Kisame).

And in the worst case, it seems Jiraya has to stay stationary to activate his jutsu. What prevents Kisame to come and attack Jiraya instead of fleeing.

In the end I don't think Jiraya will be able to beat Kisame with that (or even send him in a toad dimension as he did with Animal Path at the end of the fight against Pain). And I also don't see the Yomi Numa stopping Kisame completely either. IMO with his strength coupled with Samehada, he could free himself from the swamp. At worst he will use Samehada (and there's a big danger for Base Jiraya). So I think Kisame can win against Base Jiraya.

Jiraya will have to activate the SM. He will summons some other toad warriors (I think he have a lot of summons. But they will be sacrified since Kisame gonna beat them IMO) to buy himself time to enter sage mode.

With SM, Jiraya has the advantage. Everything is boosted (and Pa/Ma are here):

- Heavy Speed/Reflexes advantage

- Strength Advantage

-Speed Advantage.

- Numbers. Ma & Pa + J-man mean multiple attack angles

- Taijutsu advantage.

- Ninjutsu advantage is increased tenfold. Between collaborations & the power up of Senpo J-man would stomp in this category


Kisame will have a lot of difficulties even if I think Samehada can still absorb some ninjutsu.

Afterall Preta Path absorbed a lot of Sennin ninjutsu during the fight with Jiraya (and Naruto). He absorbed no diff the giant Sennin Rasengan from Jiraya

He will turn to stone if he absorbs natural energy at the source, directly in the body of SM Jiraya or SM Naruto. The same thing will happen with Samehada I think. The sword will still be able to absorb some ninjutsu even if he/she cannot drain Jiraya of her natural energy without turning into stone (and I doubt Samehada will be able to completly absorb senpo goemon... it's a boosted fire attack if I remember well).

The only way for Kisame to really be able to fight/beat SM Jiraya is to use Kisamehada and the giant water prison.

Besides, who knows, underwater, Pa/Ma might inadvertently leave Jiraya's shoulders and if that's the case then his Sennin mode will be cancelled.

Jiraya could manage to escape by summoning a giant toad (if they're not all defeated already), in putting himeslf inside the mouth and then making the frog run away (it must be able to swim a frog). Will he manage to escape from Kisamehada (it would probably take at least two toads. One to occupy Kisamehada and the other as a means of escape. And I think about it, Kisamehada is a sensor) ??

I didn't really mention it but if Kisame merges with Samehada and uses the giant water prison against Base Jiraya, it's the only way he can escape (otherwise Base Jiraya is doomed).

SM Jiraya (if the Sennin mode is still activated) can also lets himself be attacked by Kisamehada and gets his chakra stolen on contact but this time there will the same problem as Preta Path which directly absorbed Naruto's natural energy. Kisamehada risks turning into stone and thus being defeated.

In the end, even without the frog song (so hax but which in any case takes time to activate.)since it's restricted, Jiraya still can defeat Kisame even if it's going to be very hard and he might have to rely on a bit of luck.

Jiraya may be very versatile, but Kisame is also versatile (watery prison, can summon sharks, other Suitons...) and he have strong Suiton (for example Daikōdan no jutsu is a very strong Suiton) and he has monstrous physical strength (breaking the Mokuton straitjacket of Yamato when he was supposed to be exhausted after being defeated by G7 Gai Hirudora).

By hype, Jiraya is far better. But by feats Kisame is very close to him.

Jiraya extrem diff. Maybe even a draw.
 

Gol D. Roger

ΘΆΙ¦Ι› Φ„Ι¨Κ€ΗŸΘΆΙ› Σ„Ι¨ΥΌΙ’
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#6
Base Gai jobbed to 30% Kisame. And Base Gai one shot Jiraya


Kisame one shot Jiraya :kappa::cheers:


But more seriously:

I think Kisame is slighty weaker than Full Power Jiraya. Jiraya isn't far stronger than Kisame (unlike what Kisame suggest in P1).

I don't know if his power has been retconned but he should not be underestimated.

He also has the largest chakra reserve in Akatsuki, ahead of Nagato himself.

He also (probably since it was off panel) no diffed Ponta, a giant racoon. I don't think giant summon boss will be impossible to defeat for him (even if ofc Bunta is clearly stronger and faster than Ponta).

Base Jiraya felt compelled to immediately activate the SM against Animal Path. Personally I don't find it very glorious. And I consider Kisame>Animal Path.

Kisame has a lot of chakra, he's reactive (dodge Bee's raiton pencil. Whats Jiraya reaction time? Can he react to a Kisame who was reacting to killer bee and Gai (and Gai was able to match Rinnegan Obito during one moment) ), he can block Jiraya's Katon attacks with his Suitons (and even troll him with some giant waves), he can absorb his other ninjutsu with Samehada (who doesn't like heat although in the end Kisame and his sword defeated Roshi the magma user in 1 vs 1), or at worst Samehada will cure him from Jiraya's attacks.

And I think he's capable of defeating at least one giant toads. And in taijutsu I cleary don't see him losing against Base Jiraya.

But there's this jutsu and it make Kisame run away.



But to put things in perspective, Itachi also fled and personally I think he can One Shot Base Jiraya.

And I have the impression that for this jutsu to really trap the opponent, you have to be in a closed place (like in the hotel where Kid Naruto/Sasuke/Jiraya vs Itachi/Kisame were). Here we are on the turtle island (if the turle is on the sea, it can help Kisame).

And in the worst case, it seems Jiraya has to stay stationary to activate his jutsu. What prevents Kisame to come and attack Jiraya instead of fleeing.

In the end I don't think Jiraya will be able to beat Kisame with that (or even send him in a toad dimension as he did with Animal Path at the end of the fight against Pain). And I also don't see the Yomi Numa stopping Kisame completely either. IMO with his strength coupled with Samehada, he could free himself from the swamp. At worst he will use Samehada (and there's a big danger for Base Jiraya). So I think Kisame can win against Base Jiraya.

Jiraya will have to activate the SM. He will summons some other toad warriors (I think he have a lot of summons. But they will be sacrified since Kisame gonna beat them IMO) to buy himself time to enter sage mode.

With SM, Jiraya has the advantage. Everything is boosted (and Pa/Ma are here):

- Heavy Speed/Reflexes advantage

- Strength Advantage

-Speed Advantage.

- Numbers. Ma & Pa + J-man mean multiple attack angles

- Taijutsu advantage.

- Ninjutsu advantage is increased tenfold. Between collaborations & the power up of Senpo J-man would stomp in this category


Kisame will have a lot of difficulties even if I think Samehada can still absorb some ninjutsu.

Afterall Preta Path absorbed a lot of Sennin ninjutsu during the fight with Jiraya (and Naruto). He absorbed no diff the giant Sennin Rasengan from Jiraya

He will turn to stone if he absorbs natural energy at the source, directly in the body of SM Jiraya or SM Naruto. The same thing will happen with Samehada I think. The sword will still be able to absorb some ninjutsu even if he/she cannot drain Jiraya of her natural energy without turning into stone (and I doubt Samehada will be able to completly absorb senpo goemon... it's a boosted fire attack if I remember well).

The only way for Kisame to really be able to fight/beat SM Jiraya is to use Kisamehada and the giant water prison.

Besides, who knows, underwater, Pa/Ma might inadvertently leave Jiraya's shoulders and if that's the case then his Sennin mode will be cancelled.

Jiraya could manage to escape by summoning a giant toad (if they're not all defeated already), in putting himeslf inside the mouth and then making the frog run away (it must be able to swim a frog). Will he manage to escape from Kisamehada (it would probably take at least two toads. One to occupy Kisamehada and the other as a means of escape. And I think about it, Kisamehada is a sensor) ??

I didn't really mention it but if Kisame merges with Samehada and uses the giant water prison against Base Jiraya, it's the only way he can escape (otherwise Base Jiraya is doomed).

SM Jiraya (if the Sennin mode is still activated) can also lets himself be attacked by Kisamehada and gets his chakra stolen on contact but this time there will the same problem as Preta Path which directly absorbed Naruto's natural energy. Kisamehada risks turning into stone and thus being defeated.

In the end, even without the frog song (so hax but which in any case takes time to activate.)since it's restricted, Jiraya still can defeat Kisame even if it's going to be very hard and he might have to rely on a bit of luck.

Jiraya may be very versatile, but Kisame is also versatile (watery prison, can summon sharks, other Suitons...) and he have strong Suiton (for example Daikōdan no jutsu is a very strong Suiton) and he has monstrous physical strength (breaking the Mokuton straitjacket of Yamato when he was supposed to be exhausted after being defeated by G7 Gai Hirudora).

By hype, Jiraya is far better. But by feats Kisame is very close to him.

Jiraya extrem diff. Maybe even a draw.
Well done. It's been a while since the last time I've seen a lengthy and a detailed Naruto related post. Although, I don't quite agree with everything in your post, I must say you've done a great job at backing your claims with actual arguments and valid proofs.


P.S: What's your take on this @TheAncientCenturion?
 

TheAncientCenturion

I will never forgive Oda
β€Žβ€Žβ€Ž
#7
The biggest issue with this battle is that both Jiraiya and Kisame have massive techniques that can simply control the landscape. Jiraiya has a slight edge, considering his toad summons are alive, intelligent, and able to contend (for moments) with actual bijuu. These are added components that makes battle difficult for Kisame, having to focus on now 4 opponents (three mountain sized summons + Jiraiya himself), and his suiton jutsu won't be as effective on amphibians like the toads.

For the record, I don't think sage mode is that big of an issue. Increased strength, power in jutsu, et cetera, is all devastating, but I'd still put Jiraiya's raw strength below Killer Bee's when he's in V1 bijuu cloak, which blew out Sasuke's chest easily. Jiraiya's kick to the Animal (Human?) path blinded it, but that's all. Killer Bee would've blown its head off. Nature energy is also a problem, but Pa toad explained it simply as an issue when there wasn't balance; when nature energy was more numerous than the users chakra. Considering Kisame will be taking Jiraiya's chakra bit by bit, it's not going to be a prominent issue. Kisame has much more chakra than Jiraiya, so there should never be a moment where there's more nature energy present in Kisame than his own chakra.

Overall, I think Jiraiya and Kisame are very close in strength. Kishimoto's love for Jiraiya and continued praise can be matched by the later hype and reverence given to Hoshigaki Kisame, but I don't think Jiraiya is susceptible to many of Kisame's usual techniques. Call it a bad match up or Jiraiya being well rounded, but he should win here. Probably high difficulty. Kisame isn't someone like Kakuzu that Jiraiya can casually man handle.

This statement was about the Kyuubi then the final three panels are about Jiraiya.
 

Bogard

You can't win
β€Ž
#9
There was no retcon at least as far as Jiraya was concerned, i already argued this in another thread, so i'd repeat it here

I think Kishi certainly had sannin very high preskip, but overall i think the hype was more Jiraya related because it continued post-kip through Kakashi's statements(who thought Akatsuki didn't want to capture Naruto because Jiraya was with him), Akatsuki leader's praise(a tier higher than Itachi) of Jiraya having a chance to beat him with knowledge, although circumstancial.

In the Itachi vs Orochimaru case, what people always forget is that Orochimaru had knowledge on all Itachi's techniques except Susanoo(knowledge he passed to Sasuke), while Itachi had knowledge on Orochimaru's hydra technique, saying this to tell that the "genjutsu' flashback didn't actually end with the genjutsu imo. I think the battle lasted after Orochimaru was released from it after his arm got cut, with Orochimaru ending up using kawamari technique(that Itachi recognized when Sasuke evaded amaterasu) but ultimately Itachi showing his superiority to Orochimaru that that, but while using MS techniques. He later ended Orochimaru later with totsuka when he was heavily arrogant and not paying attention. What i mean by this is that while i do think Itachi is a tier ahead of Orochimaru, he'd need MS to win. The comparison Orochimaru kept having with Hebi Sasuke(portrayed stronger than Hebi Sasuke himself portrayed stronger than non-MS Itachi) proved as much

And furthermore than that, Jiraya himself actually is a tier stronger than Orochimaru while using Sage Mode. The Jiraya/Orochimaru comparison to try to downplay Jiraya never made sense to me because it was a little similar to the Naruto/Sasuke or Hashirama/Madara thing in that they wanted to save a friend without killing them. Hashirama in all his battles against Madara never tried to kill him until the final one where he was resolved to kill him, but until then he always wanted to convince him to follow his path, in a similar sense that Jiraya wanted Orochimaru to abandon his evil path and come back to Konoha, but never managed to, but Hashirama was a tier higher than Madara, so i don't think it was a simple power-level matter between Jiraya and Orochimaru imo.

With that said, they were comparable in base, the part1 fight showed as much. It's just that i don't think Jiraya ever went all out with summoning Pa/Ma, going into SM with the full intention of killing Orochimaru. He only did it once, when he felt a threat stronger than Hanzo existed(Pain), who could defeated the 3 sannin together in their youth, so clearly i think Jiraya wasn't in that position with Orochimaru, with SM imo being the thing that ultimately placed Jiraya a tier higher than Orochimaru, or at least individually, since in a sense, Orochimaru could still overall being annoying to fight with his kinjutsu/edo tensei

But individually yeah, with Jiraya said so himself while fighting Pain that SM placed him higher than his sannin counter-parts

With him obtaining a mode Orochimaru's body couldn't handle

I also think it's not a coincidence it's the same Itachi who was trying to avoid a confrontation with Jiraya, when knowing how knowledgeable he is, was startled the moment Kabuto mentioned Sage Mode

And even featwise, Jiraya actually has good arsenal to counter Itachi's techniques
> Amphibian technique countering genjutsu

> Sage Sensing to evade any immediate attacks

> Yomi Numa or his toad traps to bind Itachi from underground regardless of Susanoo


> Sound techniques and powerful genjutsu that also counter Susanoo



All that with his large scale Rasengan, katon+oil attacks as finishers. You could make an argument with amaterasu though, but judging by it's track-record in the manga, a simple kawarimi can evade it.

The main difference between Jiraya and Itachi however is that Itachi has a faster way to use his MS techniques, while Jiraya takes longer to get into SM, but while in SM, he can spam his techniques far longer than MS Itachi can, ultimately placing them on the same level, which is probably the way Kishi viewed it imo. He even gave them the same amount of score in the databook and continued to show his love of Jiraya even in the war arc by mentioning his strength among the Edos Kabuto wanted to revive at all cost, but couldn't(with Shusui when knowing his powerful genjutsu) or Obito saying he lost to Jiraya(it was contextual tho)
 

Gol D. Roger

ΘΆΙ¦Ι› Φ„Ι¨Κ€ΗŸΘΆΙ› Σ„Ι¨ΥΌΙ’
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#10
I think it was a simple retcon. It doesn't make sense for them to be talking about the Kyuubi given Hebi Sasuke could troll the Kyuubi from a stronger Naruto. Itachi should have been able to easily suppress any amount of Kyuubi chakra Naruto could monster. Even in the worst case that the Kyuubi was released, 14 yo Obito could control it, so there was still recourse then.

Inb4 Itachi was bluffing because he wanted to save Naruto and Jiraiya.

TAC thinks Kisame isn't pulling the W here
TAC isn't energetic as he used to be, he's also more reasonable now. And he's against @Bogard's Jiraiya wank, it is to be expected.
 
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TheAncientCenturion

I will never forgive Oda
β€Žβ€Žβ€Ž
#12
Inb4 Itachi was bluffing because he wanted to save Naruto and Jiraiya.



TAC isn't energetic as he used to be, he's also more reasonable now. And he's against @Bogard's Jiraiya wank, it is to be expected.
:kaidowhat: I don't remember ever being unreasonable. Bogard's wank and purposeful misinterpretation of Kishimoto's work is just an annoyance to get around.
Blame it to Kishimoto who portrayed Itachi+Kisame hightailing from one of Jiraya's basic techniques



:kayneshrug:
It's sad you have to cling to Part 1 feats to maintain this narrative :odenugh:
 
#13
I'm not replying to any threads that have that stupid scan within them. Don't mention me with that bull-shit, feats or nothing. They feared Jiraiya but laughed at Orochimaru??? Who's PORTRAYED to be stronger than Jiraiya??? Please basic comprehension PAST that damn chapter will lead you to believe Kishi just really wanted to hype fan-favorite Jiraiya....as he did everytime he was on screen to make up for his LACK of feats.


Kisame wins high difficulty, only because sage mode chakra is troublesome. (He never activates it if he doesn't start in SM)
 
#14
Baaaaaaaaah.

Hype constantly changes in Naruto.

Hiruzen the strongest guy ever until becoming Akatsuki Mid Level ( Kisame, Sasori, Kakuzu ).

Orochimaru resisting Naruto-Kyubi 4 Tails with no arms and then being defeated by an Itachi Genjutsu / Sasuke in short fight.

Tsunade defeated by Kabuto then Kishimoto said in an interview that he wanted her to fight Pain on Konoha. ( I would love to see that )

Jiraya, Tsunade and Orochimaru lost to Hanzou.
Hanzou ( past his prime ) lost to Pain.
Pain say he would have lost to Jiraya if Jiraya knew His Secret

πŸ‰πŸ‰πŸ‰
 
#16
Gamabunta is bigger(in height) than any waterdome Kisame can create, was fast enough to blitz non-fully awakened Shukaku, cut his arm, contend with him in a jutsu and close quarter battle and tank his futton attacks.

Combined with Jiraya's oil/fire attacks, he could create huge combos potentially toasting the blue Suchi. He also has immobilizing techniques to help him in the task like the hairs growth or yomi numa(and doton>suiton). Jiraya wins this in base due to his summons+ninjutsu attacks.

In SM, where they are all amplified(including his taijutsu speed and sending) while also gaining Pa/Ma as partners who are well versed in all frog Katas, senjutsu and sound attacks (with potential deadly genjutsu), it's a stomp.

Also taking too much natural energy might be a bad idea for Kisamehada since he'd turn into stone, so yes manga was correct
I think this is the right awnser. Jiraya high diffs
 
#17
Jiraiya wins with medium difficulty; Kisame was about to get one shotted by Mouth trap which isn't even a major jutsu of Jman had Itachi not burned through it with Amaterasu.
Jman managed to trap Animal path while fightning all the Pains and in an open area off panel and Kisame isn't stronger than Pain obviously so mouth trap is game ender.
From a portrayal standpoint, Jiraiya was said to be o another league by Kisame's own words, it shouldn't be even a debate. :yearight:
 

TheAncientCenturion

I will never forgive Oda
β€Žβ€Žβ€Ž
#19
Jiraiya wins with medium difficulty; Kisame was about to get one shotted by Mouth trap which isn't even a major jutsu of Jman had Itachi not burned through it with Amaterasu.
Jman managed to trap Animal path while fightning all the Pains and in an open area off panel and Kisame isn't stronger than Pain obviously so mouth trap is game ender.
From a portrayal standpoint, Jiraiya was said to be o another league by Kisame's own words, it shouldn't be even a debate. :yearight:
We're not going to get along.
 
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