Kingdom - Chapter 638: Waterway

Rate The Chapter:

  • Blew My Mind

    Votes: 3 23.1%
  • Great

    Votes: 7 53.8%
  • Average

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Poor

    Votes: 2 15.4%
  • Awful

    Votes: 1 7.7%

  • Total voters
    13
Status
Not open for further replies.
#21
*snorefest*

That's all that happened in this chapter, seriously? This could have concluded the previous chapter and we could get back to the action of Riboku and Ousen having a final bout, though I guess things aren't going to play out that way because Ribokuhas been summoned back to the capital of Zhou.
 
#22
As i said and as we all expected already, the supplies were only possible using the river route, albeit it's from a different position. Qi's blade/snake banners are great.

Riboku did his absolute best, he shouldn't be blamed really, the combination of Qin's western campaign, Yan's eastern campaign, Qi's supplies and Zhao King's stupidity played the critical roles into the fall of Gyou and Ryouyou.
 
#24
I think Kaine and others became carefree when they got the news of Burning Qin supply in Yellow river and stopping theit feint at Retsubi.

The problem is, many are overlooking the plan was simply not Qi to supply Gyou, bt deceiving Zhou into believing that Qin had already tried their best and has failed. Hence Shou Hei Kun went to the trouble of Bringing real suppies by Yellow river, he knew Zhou would predict fake supplies at Retsubi and then will be blocking em at Yellow river entrance and would became carefree when find real supplies going down in Yellow River.
So even tho Kaine n others should have completly surrounded Gyou, as a safety precaution. It's not completly Plot Armor, it's just events led to Zhou dropping their guard and Riboku himsefl wasn't there.
It's not about a sidekick like Kaine.

It's Riboku himself who set up a loose perimeter w/o even guarding the river side.

https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-637-page-12.html

And Riboku was not carefree, he was thinking about Qin's chances.

So it was a pretty stupid setup from the beginning, and Riboku is not stupid. But had Riboku surrounded Gyou properly Qin would have been dead, so Hara had written himself into a corner. :kayneshrug:
 
#25
Absolutely fantastic chapter. I certainly did not see this coming and as far as I know, no one else saw this plot twist coming either. I saw speculations of cannibalism, General Doman’s secret mountain convoy, Kanki’s tricks and eating the horses being the final solution to solving the food crises before this chapter reveal. No one predicted that Qi would be the key to a Qin victory. :akaman:

I love the banner of the Qi Navy.
Backstabbing snakes much? :madmonk:

The war of wits between Riboku and Ousen has undoubtedly been one of the most entertaining aspects of this arc. Yes, it ultimately took some time but it was well worth it to witness these two tactical titans battle it out over the campaign.

The fact Ousen had to employ a triple ploy to sneak past Riboku, who still realised his mistake before the Qi Navy arrived, just shows how close these two are in terms of overall tactical ability.

@Admiral Lee Hung would it be fair to say that Riboku is the superior battle tactician (Ousen outright admitting as much) but Ousen may be a slightly superior campaign tactician?
 
#26
As i said and as we all expected already, the supplies were only possible using the river route, albeit it's from a different position. Qi's blade/snake banners are great.

Riboku did his absolute best, he shouldn't be blamed really, the combination of Qin's western campaign, Yan's eastern campaign, Qi's supplies and Zhao King's stupidity played the critical roles into the fall of Gyou and Ryouyou.
@Bold, that's legit the only reason Zhao lost the campaign.

->Initially, had they rolled out the troops from Kantan like Riboku asked, it would've been gg from the start. But nonetheless, the stupidity of the Zhao King allowed this war to drag on.

-> Then when Riboku was needed on the battlefield the most, he gets taken out from the battlefield. You take away the time they wasted for Riboku by taking him away from the war, had he still been there, he would've already figured this shit out by the time Qi brought the supplies for Qin, would've been GG there again.

Riboku countered Ryoufui & SHK with the Coalition after they take Sanyou
Riboku countered SHK, with the castle building, making the Kanki campaign useless
Riboku now countered Ousen in the direct battlefield in face to face
Riboku now was going to counter the whole Qi-Qin connection


Dude is essentially 1-manning Ei Sei/SHK/Ousen. That's some hardcore GOAT-level stuff. Butttt there's only so much you can do with an incompetent King. Hell the man doesn't even need a competent king like Sei, he just needs a guy who'll follow what he says and it's gg.

But Hara is staying true to the hype.

 
Last edited:

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#27
@Admiral Lee Hung would it be fair to say that Riboku is the superior battle tactician (Ousen outright admitting as much) but Ousen may be a slightly superior campaign tactician?
In short, yes.

In long:

This is the way I see it, as purely in-battle tacticians (individual battle strategy, formations, etc):
Shou Hei Kun > Ri Boku > Ou Sen.
Shou Hei Kun's ability to execute extremely high level tactics that are considered impractical because of how difficult and situational they are, and to do so effectively, has me thinking that he's the best. He also formed the overall strategy that allowed the Qin to win the seemingly impossible odds of the Coalition War (and he doens't get enough credit for this). Ri Boku and Ou Sen are near equals tactically, but Ri Boku showed just a bit more than him the one time they fought lol. They each have other great in-battle tactical feats from other battles but overall it's tough to compare those (Riboku defeating Ouki, Ousen stalling out Renpa).

As overall war/campaign strategists:
Ou Sen > Ri Boku > Shou Hei Kun.
I think it's pretty clear that this entire Western Zhao Invasion, has put on full display Riboku's strategic superiority to Shou Hei Kun. Not only did Riboku immediately shut down Shou Hei Kun's initial plan of invading Zhao from the North, and hard, but Riboku also had a flawless fail safe that ruined Shouheikun's Western Invasion from the moment that Retsubi was taken. You could argue that they are equals and that the only reason Ri Boku looked superior was because Zhao was on the defensive and Qin was on the offensive, and also that towards the end Shouheikun merely "played his role" to distract from Ousen's ultimate plan,67789yui but a key part of strategy involves playing the cards that you are dealt, and Riboku did that better than Shouheikun this arc.

Ousen though...just wtf lol. I don't even know how to describe his overall strategic ability. His feat of reading Karin's attack on Kankoku Pass with zero knowledge of her plan was freaking nuts, and like you said earlier, this Western Zhao Qi strat was just insane. I think Riboku even figuring out that this was going to happen period was nuts in and of itself lol.
 
#28
Meh. Hara kinda wrote himself in a corner here. Had Zhao surrounded Gyou the same way Kanki did it would have been game over, so I guess it's more plot armor for Ousen.

Nevermind, curios to see what's next.
-> There's no reason to surround Gyou that way and spread out the forces more (he's not getting any back-up from Kantan, and his strategies revolve around as low-causalities as possible).
-> He would've done it had he not been taken out, since he would've figured out the Qi supply route and cut that off.

It's not really plot armor, but just the reality of the situation with Zhao. Zhao is ultimately losing due to the difference between the King of Zhao & King of Qin. Like OG Renpa brought up earlier, the caliber of a King.

 
Last edited:
#29
Yeah, Riboku is getting some unnecessary flak in this thread.

Firstly, there was no reason for Riboku to suspect Qi (or any other state for that matter) of anything regarding sending aid to Qin.

Before the meeting between Ei Sei and Ouken, it was noted by Mouten and the Kanyou bureaucrats that every single state, including Qi, was scheming to keep Qin’s power in check.


When the Qi King Ouken met Ei Sei, he deliberately did so in a manner that eliminated any possibilities of court spies from the other states from potentially knowing what was happening.
Ouken brought no Qi officials with him and kept the number of Qin officials attending the meeting down to a bare minimum of Saitaku, an old trusted friend who set the meeting up in the first place and at the advice of Saitaku, Shoubunkun, who Saitaku knows is one of Sei’s most loyal and trusted vassals.

Ouken even kept the meeting as short as possible in order to not give Riboku a hint that something highly important was taking place.

As for what Riboku would think was the reason that Ouken would seek a meeting with Sei, Riboku could have easily believed that Ouken went to Kanyou for the same reason that he himself did. That is, to simply meet Ei Sei in person in order to see what kind of individual he is.

Even Saitaku, a man who has known Ouken for years if not decades,
still described Ouken as a difficult individual to “read”.

Also, the idea that Riboku should have immediately suspected that Qi would send aid to Qin because Qin paid them money one time to not kill them is quite illogical.

During the Coalition Arc, Qin paid Qi to go from a hostile stance to a neutral stance. There is a large leap from being neutral to actively sending aid.

Besides, as I pointed out before, it was noted that Qi (before the meeting of Kings) was initially taking active steps to curb Qin’s power. Shouheikan even suspected that Ouken could create another Coalition Army to destroy Qin.
He was correct. Lol.

All of this combined would have painted a picture that Qi (or any other state) would never directly assist Qin in any way.

Secondly, let us address how Riboku surrounded Gyou.

I) There is no particular reason Riboku needs to station his troops as close to the city as possible. Since he expected that the supplies were going to come from the Qin homeland then blocking off the Ousen Army by land to prevent them from raiding nearby settlements or escaping altogether and using the Yellow River to trap them would be sufficient in those circumstances.

II) The armies stationed to the West and North West of Gyou are close enough that if necessary, Riboku can send troops between the Western/North Western Gyou front and Ryouyou/Retsubi and vice versa depending on what scenario unfolds (e.g. Ousen Army attempts to break out, Yotanwa Army attempts to break out, Retsubi is attacked etc. etc.)

III) Riboku’s strategies revolve around keeping his own army’s casualties down to a minimum, hence why he keeps them supporting each other. If he isolates them then there will be an increased chance of casualties.

IV) Honestly, I do not think that it matters whether the forces surrounding Gyou also covered the South or if they were just outside Gyou.

Whatever forces were hypothetically covering the area South or immediately South of Gyou would be pincered between the Ousen Army and whatever Qi troops were deployed to protect the supply convoy (it would be utterly illogical if the convoy was completely unprotected). The Ousen Army would then protect the convey.

Once the Qin troops see that food is coming then they will fight with everything they have.
Even in this chapter, folk like Bihei were still able to get to their feet quickly in a response to a potential threat.

Besides, the heavy hitters in Riboku’s forces were stationed around Retsubi. What noteworthy individuals are there in the area around Gyou? Just Kaine? Lol.

Lastly, Riboku would have likely figured out Ousen’s final ploy if given the opportunity to focus on the situation alone but hey, the Zhao King loves being an active hindrance. Lol.


Edit: I had to fix the images here or else they would have gone wonky. Lol.
 
Last edited:
#30
Yeah, Riboku is getting some unnecessary flak in this thread.

Firstly, there was no reason for Riboku to suspect Qi (or any other state for that matter) of anything regarding sending aid to Qin.

Before the meeting between Ei Sei and Ouken, it was noted by Mouten and the Kanyou bureaucrats that every single state, including Qi, was scheming to keep Qin’s power in check.

When the Qi King Ouken met Ei Sei, he deliberately did so in a manner that eliminated any possibilities of court spies from the other states from potentially knowing what was happening.
Ouken brought no Qi officials with him and kept the number of Qin officials attending the meeting down to a bare minimum of Saitaku, an old trusted friend who set the meeting up in the first place and at the advice of Saitaku, Shoubunkun, who Saitaku knows is one of Sei’s most loyal and trusted vassals.

Ouken even kept the meeting as short as possible in order to not give Riboku a hint that something highly important was taking place.

As for what Riboku would think was the reason that Ouken would seek a meeting with Sei, Riboku could have easily believed that Ouken went to Kanyou that he himself did. That is, to simply meet Ei Sei in person in order to see what kind of individual he is.

Even Saitaku, a man who has known Ouken for years if not decades,
still described Ouken as a difficult individual to “read”.

Also, the idea that Riboku should have immediately suspected that Qi would send aid to Qin because Qin paid them money one time to not kill them is quite illogical.

During the Coalition Arc, Qin paid Qi to go from a hostile stance to a neutral stance. There is a large leap from being neutral to actively sending aid.

Besides, as I pointed out before, it was noted that Qi (before the meeting of Kings) was initially taking active steps to curb Qin’s power. Shouheikan even suspected that Ouken could create another Coalition Army to destroy Qin.
He was correct. Lol.

All of this combined would have painted a picture that Qi (or any other state) would never directly assist Qin in any way.

Secondly, let us address how Riboku surrounded Gyou.

I) There is no particular reason Riboku needs to station his troops as close to the city as possible. Since he expected that the supplies were going to come from the Qin homeland then blocking off the Ousen Army by land to prevent them from raiding nearby settlements or escaping altogether and using the Yellow River to trap them would be sufficient in those circumstances.

II) The armies stationed to the West and North West of Gyou are close enough that if necessary, Riboku can send troops between the Western/North Western Gyou front and Ryouyou/Retsubi and vice versa depending on what scenario unfolds (e.g. Ousen Army attempts to break out, Yotanwa Army attempts to break out, Retsubi is attacked etc. etc.)

III) Riboku’s strategies revolve around keeping his own army’s casualties down to a minimum, hence why he keeps them supporting each other. If he isolates them then there will be an increased chance of casualties.

IV) Honestly, I do not think that it matters whether the forces surrounding Gyou also covered the South or if they were just outside Gyou.

Whatever forces were hypothetically covering the area South or immediately South of Gyou would be pincered between the Ousen Army and whatever Qi troops were deployed to protect the supply convoy (it would be utterly illogical if the convoy was completely unprotected). The Ousen Army would then protect the convey.

Once the Qin troops see that food is coming then they will fight with everything they have.
Even in this chapter, folk like Bihei were still able to get to their feet quickly in a response to a potential threat.

Besides, the heavy hitters in Riboku’s forces were stationed around Retsubi. What noteworthy individuals are there in the area around Gyou? Just Kaine? Lol.

Lastly, Riboku would have likely figured out Ousen’s final ploy if given the opportunity to focus on the situation alone but hey, the Zhao King loves being an active hindrance. Lol.

@Admiral Lee Hung @Xione @Den_Den_Mushi @ShinmenTakezo @Patryipe @Hiragaro @Beerbottle @Arara @Shanks @Greenbeard @Blackbeard @Zoro D Goat @Yo Tan Wa
@RayanOO
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top