Kingdom - Chapter 660: Good or Evil

[Elder Lee Hung]

I'm in disagreement with @Blackbeard @Owl Ki @Admiral Lee Hung on the idea that the Tiger of Chu would be wasting time dealing with a minor general (which is what Man'U was regardless of his abilities) when he's out leading grand armies in the East + dealing with the Wei7/Zhao3/Qin6/Gakuki.

Which one of us said Kou En had anything to do with Man’U to this extent?

“Hey, Kou En Sama, another one of those Generals from a state we just absorbed is marauding across Chu.”

“Okay, send his own people to fight him like we did for all the others. That should break him in.”

^Thats could be the extent of Kou En’s involvement if he was involved with ManU and co lol. Shunshinkun is more of a political mind than he is a tactical warrior mind.

But Kou En to me seems like one of those Generals with an eye for small details like Ouki talked about. The one and only quote we know from Kou En, was when Ren Pa stated that “Chu has yet to take advantage of all the resources at its disposal”, and then immediately attributed that idea to Kou En lol. Which makes Kou En sound like the exact type of General who would concern himself with “small” details like ManU and co.

This idea that Great Generals only focus on larger battlefield details is weird to me. In fact, the best Generals seem to be the ones who do have eyes for small details on the battlefield. Riboku is the greatest General of this era because he devotes himself to understanding the minor details on the battlefield. Generals like Fuuki who focus on nothing but the greater battlefield tend to get bodied by ones who focus on minute details like Ouki.

So Kou En, as Chu’s strongest General, should be someone who pays extremely close attention to the small details of Chu and the affairs of its military.

 

[Owl Ki]

I'm in disagreement with @Blackbeard @Owl Ki @Admiral Lee Hung on the idea that the Tiger of Chu would be wasting time dealing with a minor general (which is what Man'U was regardless of his abilities) when he's out leading grand armies in the East + dealing with the Wei7/Zhao3/Qin6/Gakuki. If there was a plan it was 100% Shunshinkun, who held the same position as Riboku, since he's the one who later made the plan for Juuko for them.

I am not sure what you and I are in disagreement about because I never said that it was Kou En. In fact, I made my entire post based around the fact that Kou En was probably somewhere else.

III) As for Kou En, well we do not have enough info on him but considering the size of Chu’s borders, Kou En could simply have been on an important military campaign elsewhere.

As for why the Chu did not send the likes of Kou En down on Man U and co, I can think of at least two scenarios.

I simply referred to whoever came up with the strategies as “Chu/the Chu”. I do not know for certain who in Chu came up with the plan.

Now as for the possibility of the plan I'm on board with, but I'm in disagreement with the specific detail of it with @Owl Ki when it comes to who exactly from Juuko joined the army. Rather than the enslaved people it makes more sense thematically that people free of their will joined the army. If it were the enslaved who joined the army, Man'U didn't get betrayed. Betrayal of his burden only makes sense if the people willingly said "We'll fight against Man'U", now more than likely they did it because of something Chu promised them like money or possibly land or w.e.

Ju Ko's words were that the people were turned against him, considering he's an intellectual and has been doing nothing but chilling. He'd figured it by now if they had been forced to fight against Man'U or simply turned against him. If they were forced to fight him they would know. Him saying it wasn't very difficult for them to turn the people against Man'U also implies that he knows how exactly they turned the people against Man'U.


The enslaved people would be used as labor, similar to how Shin & Hyou were used as labor when they were slaves.

..... I was not talking about the citizens of Beki at all though. Lol.

I was talking about what forces Man U fought before the citizens of Beki betrayed him.

The state of Beki and it’s people surrendered. The citizens betrayed Man U seemingly on their own free will. I am not disputing that at all.

The state of Kei was said to have fallen to Chu. Half of their populace was then enslaved.

Since Beki surrendered, Chu could very well have shown them more mercy than they did to Kei.

I simply found it odd that Man U would lose only 1000 soldiers to a standard Chu Army. Losing only 1000 trained soldiers to a force of low morale enslaved conscripts from other city states (not Beki) that have never fought before would make a lot of sense.

It was a hypothetical scenario that came from a train of thought regarding what Chu would do to 1/2 of an enslaved population (likely the half that consists of all males of fighting age if said hypothetical scenario is correct) and on how Man U’s casualties would seemingly be so low.

Of course, my hypothetical scenario could be entirely wrong but hey, it sure is fun to speculate. Lol.

 

[Xione]

Which one of us said Kou En had anything to do with Man’U to this extent?

“Hey, Kou En Sama, another one of those Generals from a state we just absorbed is marauding across Chu.”

“Okay, send his own people to fight him like we did for all the others. That should break him in.”

^Thats could be the extent of Kou En’s involvement if he was involved with ManU and co lol. Shunshinkun is more of a political mind than he is a tactical warrior mind.

But Kou En to me seems like one of those Generals with an eye for small details like Ouki talked about. The one and only quote we know from Kou En, was when Ren Pa stated that “Chu has yet to take advantage of all the resources at its disposal”, and then immediately attributed that idea to Kou En lol. Which makes Kou En sound like the exact type of General who would concern himself with “small” details like ManU and co.

This idea that Great Generals only focus on larger battlefield details is weird to me. In fact, the best Generals seem to be the ones who do have eyes for small details on the battlefield. Riboku is the greatest General of this era because he devotes himself to understanding the minor details on the battlefield. Generals like Fuuki who focus on nothing but the greater battlefield tend to get bodied by ones who focus on minute details like Ouki.

So Kou En, as Chu’s strongest General, should be someone who pays extremely close attention to the small details of Chu and the affairs of its military.

Yea but if it's something that minor, I highly doubt somebody as capable as Shunshinkun, who is the equivalent if not the superior of even Shouheikun couldn't come up with and would need to go seek out the Tiger of Chu. Especially since this is a politics 101 type of an ordeal, using the people to internally fight each other and what not, then getting them to be your pawns.

Cause Shunshinkun was smart enough to then utilize the broken generals strategically into having them defend a key city for Chu. Would be more inline if it was all part of Shunshinkun's grand plan regarding them.

"Shunshinkun is more of a political mind than he is a tactical warrior mind".. We talking about the ex-Chief of Military for Chu? He ranked higher than Koen in the military for a reason. S ranked just like the Qin 6 and of course on par with the top Great Generals in strategies (if going by stats).

Spoiler

Even amongst military officers, he was regarded as one of the men who stood at the absolute peak. The man personally built the Chu into a superpower of a state within 20 years.

Spoiler

There's a reason why this mf was made the commander-in-chief of the alliance, and why they said there's nobody more befitting to be the Coalition's leader, even more so than the man who took out Ouki and formed the coalition. He's pretty similar to Riboku actually.

Though military stuff aside the scenario you're saying feels more like a Ryofui-esque move. How he was politically smart enough to create up all those rebellion with Seikyou and the Queen, all of which required great strategizing.



Not saying your idea isn't possible, just something I'd disagree with.
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I am not sure what you and I are in disagreement about because I never said that it was Kou En. In fact, I made my entire post based around the fact that Kou En was probably somewhere else.

I was confused about that as well when I read your original post with the scenarios, but since @Blackbeard and @Perun quoted you while talking about Tiger of Chu, thought I might've missed it or something. But since you didn't mention him, just ignore that.

I simply referred to whoever came up with the strategies as “Chu/the Chu”. I do not know for certain who in Chu came up with the plan.

..... I was not talking about the citizens of Beki at all though. Lol.

I was talking about what forces Man U fought before the citizens of Beki betrayed him.

The state of Beki and it’s people surrendered. The citizens betrayed Man U seemingly on their own free will. I am not disputing that at all.

The state of Kei was said to have fallen to Chu. Half of their populace was then enslaved.

Since Beki surrendered, Chu could very well have shown them more mercy than they did to Kei.

I simply found it odd that Man U would lose only 1000 soldiers to a standard Chu Army. Losing only 1000 trained soldiers to a force of low morale enslaved conscripts from other city states (not Beki) that have never fought before would make a lot of sense.

It was a hypothetical scenario that came from a train of thought regarding what Chu would do to 1/2 of an enslaved population (likely the half that consists of all males of fighting age if said hypothetical scenario is correct) and on how Man U’s casualties would seemingly be so low.

Of course, my hypothetical scenario could be entirely wrong but hey, it sure is fun to speculate. Lol.

Ah ok then I misunderstood that. I agree with this then, sounds like a political move that Shunshinkun would come up with where you just use the people of the conquered states to fight other states you're going to conquer (and of course more efficient for the Chu, considering the # of states they had to deal with).


But would it be more beneficial for them to use the enslaved populous for that rather than the free populous? Because if you already have them enslaved, you just put them into labor like for your citizens, like how Shin & Hyou were slaves doing labor. Where as you need something for that free populous, you throw them into an army, making room for your actual citizens.

 

[Owl Ki]

Ah ok then I misunderstood that. I agree with this then, sounds like a political move that Shunshinkun would come up with where you just use the people of the conquered states to fight other states you're going to conquer.


But would it be more beneficial for them to use the enslaved populous for that rather than the free populous? Because if you already have them enslaved, you just put them into labor like for your citizens, like how Shin & Hyou were slaves doing labor. Where as you need something for that free populous, you throw them into an army, making room for your actual citizens.

If Chu keeps the enslaved populace (probably men of fighting age) around then there is the potential for that populace to rebel in the future, like how the Juuteki Tribe (who were not even enslaved if I recall correctly) joined the Ai rebellion out of resentment borne out of being conquered by Qin only a century earlier.

So, in the hypothetical scenario, Chu sends the enslaved fighting population (with a detachment of actually loyal professional Chu soldiers plus a Chu commander and a promise of slaughtering the enslaved populace’s families if they don’t comply ala Rozo style) on suicide missions to grind down other enemy states into submission.

Chu gets rid of a potential future problem while losing absolutely nothing in their battle of attrition against Reki/Beki.

The less genocidal way to solve the local unhappy populace problem is to simply divide up the enslaved populace and scatter them around the entirety of Chu, make them as “rootless” as Man U.

It depends on how despicable Hara wants to make Chu.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

"Shunshinkun is more of a political mind than he is a tactical warrior mind".. We talking about the ex-Chief of Military for Chu?

I forgot he was the head of Chu's military lol. I thought that fell to Kou En. Yeah, the Kingdom Wiki has Kou En listed as "first in command of the Chu military" so.. Not really sure what is going on there lol.

I guess all we can say about Kou En right now is that he is the strongest Chu Great General (meaning he's probably top 3 or so in all of China atm)

 

[Xione]

I forgot he was the head of Chu's military lol. I thought that fell to Kou En. Yeah, the Kingdom Wiki has Kou En listed as "first in command of the Chu military" so.. Not really sure what is going on there lol.

I guess all we can say about Kou En right now is that he is the strongest Chu Great General (meaning he's probably top 3 or so in all of China atm)

I believe the Chu military organized in this manner:

-> Chief of Military
-> 1st in command (probably more than 300k soldier under command)
-> 2nd in command (300k soldiers under command)


It's a system that mirrors what the Qin had under King Sho:

-> Chief of Military (we don't know who it was back then)
-> Leader of Qin 6 (Hakuki)
-> Other Qin 6 (rest of Qin6)


So Kouen probably still is "1st in command" still, since he was that under Shunshinkun too. Though I could be completely wrong If Karin and him were made "1st / 2nd in command" only temporarily after Shunshinkun's death.

 

[Warchief Sanji D Goat]

Man'U's and Sentoun's backstory is justSo they were the former Supreme Commanders of their hometowns but then both countries were fall to Chu and Man'U and Sentoun were forced to kill their own hometown soldiersAs for Juuko Ou, I don't think he will die just yet but we will see for sure. Great chapter :cheers: