Rules Kingdom General Discussion

warm take, but full potential Gaimou and Man'U>Ouki and Renpa imo
Scorching hot take on Man'U. People make too much of his performance against Mou Bu, who is a) a known slow starter, and b) known to be mentally susceptible, and c) was in fact mentally compromised.

Ou Ki and Ren Pa would destroy him. Straight up. I don't think Man'U wins even 1/10 matches. He just don't got it.

Less so on Gai Mou.
 
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TheKnightOfTheSea

𝕷𝖔𝖗𝖉 𝖔𝖋 𝕸𝖔𝖔𝖓'π–˜ π•Ύπ–•π–†π–œπ–“
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Scorching hot take on Man'U. People make too much of his performance against Mou Bu, who is a) a known slow starter, and b) known to me mentally susceptible, and c) was in fact mentally compromised.

Ou Ki and Ren Pa would destroy him. Straight up. I don't think Man'U wins even 1/10 matches. He just don't got it.

Less so on Gai Mou.
I mean even after Moubu "got started", Man'U seemingly had an upperhand.

look how casual he was at the end of their duel

man was smiling while blood was coming out of Moubu's mouth.

even outside of the duel, Man'U had pretty fantastic hype. The strongest state Chu "gave up" against Man'U after he defeated a significant number of Chu generals. Beating tons of Rinbukun tier guys, and repelling Great General Kanmei's army.

I don't know how strong Man'U is or if he's even supposed to be Chu's strongest, but he's absolutely up there.

You recall when Man'U claimed he was weaker than Kanmei and then it was questioned by soldiers? This is an interpretation I had in the past: Moubu never truly was stronger than Kanmei and only won because of the "burden" and his greater weight. So it's possibly Man'U could be weaker than Kanmei and also onpar/stronger than Moubu.
 
I mean even after Moubu "got started", Man'U seemingly had an upperhand.

look how casual he was at the end of their duel

man was smiling while blood was coming out of Moubu's mouth.

even outside of the duel, Man'U had pretty fantastic hype. The strongest state Chu "gave up" against Man'U after he defeated a significant number of Chu generals. Beating tons of Rinbukun tier guys, and repelling Great General Kanmei's army.

I don't know how strong Man'U is or if he's even supposed to be Chu's strongest, but he's absolutely up there.

You recall when Man'U claimed he was weaker than Kanmei and then it was questioned by soldiers? This is an interpretation I had in the past: Moubu never truly was stronger than Kanmei and only won because of the "burden" and his greater weight. So it's possibly Man'U could be weaker than Kanmei and also onpar/stronger than Moubu.
I do think Man'U is the strongest Chu has at the moment, though I think there's a strong possibility he will be surpassed by Kou Yoku (possibly under the guidance of Kou En, but that's a discussion for another time).

We've seen what Mou Bu looks like when he's truly going all out and that wasn't it. He got his licks in, but to me it seemed clear he was still rattled and getting into the swing of things.

Man'U got in his head and stayed there the whole time, dragging Mou Bu into having to prove something that only served to cloud his judgment. Using your example, I don't think he would've mistaken a retreating Man'U for being open if he was operating from a state composure and clarity of mind.

Bottom line, I think it's very clear that fight served its purpose as a setup for what is to come. It's very similar to Shin vs Gai Mou in that regard. It also reminds me of Batman vs Bane in DKR. Man'U fought with conviction in his beliefs. Mou Bu lacked confidence in his.

All that said though, I think fighting Mou Bu for a second time will "unlock" Man'U's weight factor, which should have him surpass Kan Mei - though he will still lose.
 
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TheKnightOfTheSea

𝕷𝖔𝖗𝖉 𝖔𝖋 𝕸𝖔𝖔𝖓'π–˜ π•Ύπ–•π–†π–œπ–“
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I do think Man'U is the strongest Chu has at the moment, though I think there's a strong possibility he will be surpassed by Kou Yoku (possibly under the guidance of Kou En, but that's a discussion for another time).
It's always possible that there are other characters in Chu stronger than Man'U martially currently. It's really up to Hara. He could make Kouen stronger than Man'U but i'm leaning towards Kouen being a high diff for Man'U for now. I always have had a high opinion of Yoku but never believed he'd reach those heights(I think he'll die a good few years before Kouen and Chu falls), not because he lacks the potential, because either Tou or Ouhon will slay him before he reaches those heights.

We've seen what Mou Bu looks like when he's truly going all out and that wasn't it. He got his licks in, but to me it seemed clear he was still rattled and getting into the swing of things.
I'd like to bring up that it was mentioned Man'U wasn't performing as expected either.

All that said though, I think fighting Mou Bu for a second time will "unlock" Man'U's weight factor, which should have him surpass Kan Mei - though he will still lose.
I would like that a lot. I'd heard speculation that he'll be a Shin or Ouhon opponent, but the Juuko arc was clearly big set up for a Man'U vs Moubu rematch.


Do you think Kouyoku killing Tou is possible btw? I was thinking of a scenario that paralleled Ouki's death, where Hakurei shoots Tou with an arrow allowing Yoku to deal a lethal blow. I do agree that Yoku crippling Tou but dying in the process is more likely
 
It's always possible that there are other characters in Chu stronger than Man'U martially currently. It's really up to Hara. He could make Kouen stronger than Man'U but i'm leaning towards Kouen being a high diff for Man'U for now. I always have had a high opinion of Yoku but never believed he'd reach those heights(I think he'll die a good few years before Kouen and Chu falls), not because he lacks the potential, because either Tou or Ouhon will slay him before he reaches those heights.
Hara has pretty much limitless flexibility and I welcome the possibility of there being monsters out there we haven't met yet. I think it's absolutely necessary given how stacked Qin is.

It's my hope Kou En has several heavy hitters under his banner but I am 100% he will not be a martial type. He may have been in his youth (when he was known as the Tiger of Chu), but he should be too old for it now.

I'd like to think Kou Yoku is his errant grandson, who he will call to heel and mentor at the right time.

I'd like to bring up that it was mentioned Man'U wasn't performing as expected either.
Ju Ko'Ou was talking about his contributions to the battle.

Rather than focusing on advancing as expected, he became fixated with Mou Bu - his ideological enemy.

I would like that a lot. I'd heard speculation that he'll be a Shin or Ouhon opponent, but the Juuko arc was clearly big set up for a Man'U vs Moubu rematch.
I would like to see Ou Hon vs Sen To'Un, but Man'U belongs to Mou Bu. They have unsettled business and I don't think it goes for a third round.

It's hard to anticipate what Hara will do but I do believe he will resolve this loose thread.

Do you think Kouyoku killing Tou is possible btw? I was thinking of a scenario that paralleled Ouki's death, where Hakurei shoots Tou with an arrow allowing Yoku to deal a lethal blow. I do agree that Yoku crippling Tou but dying in the process is more likely
Possible, yes, but I think it's unlikely given what we know of Tou historically.

I have long held the belief he will be the one to retire Tou from warfare by taking his sword arm/hand in combat.

Haku Rei may get involved, but I don't think Hara goes down that route. I don't think Haku Rei is likely to get the chance/seperation from whoever he is facing.
 

TheKnightOfTheSea

𝕷𝖔𝖗𝖉 𝖔𝖋 𝕸𝖔𝖔𝖓'π–˜ π•Ύπ–•π–†π–œπ–“
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Hara has pretty much limitless flexibility and I welcome the possibility of there being monsters out there we haven't met yet. I think it's absolutely necessary given how stacked Qin is.
Chu should be filled with Juukos and Man'U's realistically. I headcanon that Qin just simply won't have to deal with them and maybe
Xiang Yu will recruit a large number of them.

It's my hope Kou En has several heavy hitters under his banner but I am 100% he will not be a martial type. He may have been in his youth (when he was known as the Tiger of Chu), but he should be too old for it now.
If 70 year old Renpa was still portrayed as a physical monster, I think Kouen could be one too. Though it's probably too early to tell. I think the fact that Kouyoku is so strong martially hints that the Kou family is filled with martial beasts.

I am confidant that Kouen will get a sequence where he thrashes Shin with blows powered by weight. Either in a Chougaryuu style fight, or a full extended duel, leaning toward the former.

I'd like to think Kou Yoku is his errant grandson, who he will call to heel and mentor at the right time.
I think he's his son for historical reasons but he could be a grandson or nephew. I get the impression Yoku has hardly spent any time with him, Hakurei did seem legit worried Karin would execute Yoku, and I don't think Karin would execute a favored relative of Kouen.

I would like to see Ou Hon vs Sen To'Un, but Man'U belongs to Mou Bu. They have unsettled business and I don't think it goes for a third round.

It's hard to anticipate what Hara will do but I do believe he will resolve this loose thread.
Sentou'un vs Kyoukai could be cool.

Possible, yes, but I think it's unlikely given what we know of Tou historically.

I have long held the belief he will be the one to retire Tou from warfare by taking his sword arm/hand in combat.

Haku Rei may get involved, but I don't think Hara goes down that route. I don't think Haku Rei is likely to get the chance/seperation from whoever he is facing.
okay here me out. History spoilers:
let's say that during the Wei invasion, or alternatively during Ouhon's historic conquest of 10 Chu cities before conquering Wei, a battle with Kouyoku and Hakurei takes place. During the events, Tou and Kouyoku fight. Ouhon is unable to track Hakurei down and he ends up shooting Tou and leading to his death. With the loss of a Qin 6 and the most experienced, it becomes very necessary for Ouhon to defeat Wei. And that's part of the reasons he ends up flooding the city and killing all the civilians because it was the only plan that works in that scenario. We could also have Shouheikun leave the court at the time to increase the tension and make every defeat of Qin more impactful

I've had that theory for a long time lol. The flooding of the capital could be one of the best written moments in the manga
 
Chu should be filled with Juukos and Man'U's realistically. I headcanon that Qin just simply won't have to deal with them and maybe
Xiang Yu will recruit a large number of them.
I anticipate the Juukou generals to be folded under the Ka Rin Army and Kou En to have an army at least equal to it.

If 70 year old Renpa was still portrayed as a physical monster, I think Kouen could be one too. Though it's probably too early to tell. I think the fact that Kouyoku is so strong martially hints that the Kou family is filled with martial beasts.
Ren Pa set the precedent, but he’s also a 1 of 1, and he was late 60s during Sanyou. His stats haven’t dropped since (which I dislike) but I don’t think we can assume the significant likelihood the same applies to Kou En or any else.

I am confidant that Kouen will get a sequence where he thrashes Shin with blows powered by weight. Either in a Chougaryuu style fight, or a full extended duel, leaning toward the former.
Consider these facts
  • Kou En possessed the longest service record in the history of Chu 7 years ago
  • His other moniker is Conqueror of the East
  • Virtually all of Eastern Chu was part of of the former Qi superstate some 60 years ago
Assuming he began his military career as young as Ou Ki did (13) and the war against Qi was his first, he would be nearing mid 70s now and into 80s by the time of the Chu Campaign. If he was already in his late teens by that time, he’d by closer to 90 than 70 by the time does his thing. Etc, etc, etc.

I do not believe it likely Kou En will have the physicality for combat. He’s an old man that’s retired to minding his business. A kingmaker with enough clout to raise another coalition on the strength of his name alone. Basically, the embodiment of β€œin a profession where men die young, fear the old” - someone even Ka Rin will show respect and deference to.

In any event, regardless of who he faces in Chu, Shin should be past this by the time of getting thrashed by anyone. At most it should resemble Ou Ki vs Hou Ken and Kan Mei vs Mou Bu.

I think he's his son for historical reasons but he could be a grandson or nephew. I get the impression Yoku has hardly spent any time with him, Hakurei did seem legit worried Karin would execute Yoku, and I don't think Karin would execute a favored relative of Kouen.
It’s possible Kou Yoku is his son, but given his age, I think grandson makes more sense.

Haku Rei might have feared Ka Rin would go through with it because she was intimidating, but I don’t think summary execution was ever on the table for the Ka Rin. She’s not in habit of wasting resources or not knowing who she’s dealing with.

Sentou'un vs Kyoukai could be cool.
I’m down for that. Kyou Kai is extremely overdue for a worthwhile scalp.

I think it’s going to be
Mou vs Man’U
Shin vs Kou Yoku
Ou Hon vs Sen To’un
Mou Ten vs Gen’U
Kyou Kai vs Haku Rei

I think Tou will be involved in some capacity too. Maybe he’ll be the one facing Ka Rin, it’s a rematch I’m hoping happens. At the very least I he’ll send Ju Ko’Ou to advise Mou Bu or be seen discussing reports on the battle with him.

okay here me out. History spoilers:
let's say that during the Wei invasion, or alternatively during Ouhon's historic conquest of 10 Chu cities before conquering Wei, a battle with Kouyoku and Hakurei takes place. During the events, Tou and Kouyoku fight. Ouhon is unable to track Hakurei down and he ends up shooting Tou and leading to his death. With the loss of a Qin 6 and the most experienced, it becomes very necessary for Ouhon to defeat Wei. And that's part of the reasons he ends up flooding the city and killing all the civilians because it was the only plan that works in that scenario. We could also have Shouheikun leave the court at the time to increase the tension and make every defeat of Qin more impactful

I've had that theory for a long time lol. The flooding of the capital could be one of the best written moments in the manga
It’s a reasonable theory but I don’t think Hara goes for the repeat. I think Kou Yoku wins his duel fair and square. He’s close to surpassing Tou already, it won’t be long before he surpasses him.

As for why Ou Hon diverts the Yellow River, I don’t see him doing something so extreme that is guaranteed to result in fury and murderous intent from Shin and condemnation from Mou Ten unless he’s operating from a fucked up place. I’m talking immense frustration with himself either because of harsh words from Ou Sen or losing out on a 6GG spot.


Sei will already far gone enough to support his decision, and I believe SHK will move after this because he fears Sei will have him killed as well - be it for failure or the fact he has royal blood that could threaten the new Qin hegemony he is trying to establish.
 
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TheKnightOfTheSea

𝕷𝖔𝖗𝖉 𝖔𝖋 𝕸𝖔𝖔𝖓'π–˜ π•Ύπ–•π–†π–œπ–“
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I anticipate the Juukou generals to be folded under the Ka Rin Army and Kou En to have an army at least equal to it.
I believe Karin will get the Juuko generals under her. So far we haven't seen any confirmed generals/commanders outside of Bamyuu as part of the Karin army.

  • Kou En possessed the longest service record in the history of Chu 7 years ago
do you recall what chapter that was mentioned? I only remember seeing it on the wiki, but it sounds like something that was said.

Ren Pa set the precedent, but he’s also a 1 of 1, and he was late 60s during Sanyou. His stats haven’t dropped since (which I dislike) but I don’t think we can assume the significant likelihood the same applies to Kou En or any else.
Do you think Renpa will be a major opponent for Qin in the future? It's worth noting Mougou did say something along the lines of "even though he's an old geezer he's as strong as his prime". so he's a major exception.

then again Mougou's blows against Renpa were stronger than any other blow.

In any event, regardless of who he faces in Chu, Shin should be past this by the time of getting thrashed by anyone. At most it should resemble Ou Ki vs Hou Ken and Kan Mei vs Mou Bu.
fair.

It’s possible Kou Yoku is his son, but given his age, I think grandson makes more sense.
the famed warlord, Xiang Yu is Xiang Yan/Kouen's grandson. I think he'll be born soon as the child of Kouyoku and Karin. I believe him and Liu Bang will be prominent figures of Kingdom's epilogue/

I think it’s going to be
Mou vs Man’U
Shin vs Kou Yoku
Ou Hon vs Sen To’un
Mou Ten vs Gen’U
Kyou Kai vs Haku Rei
Moubu vs Man'U
Mouten vs Hakurei
Ouhon vs Yoku

idk about Gen'U and Sentou'un. I'd like them to be fed to a strong Hi Shin general or Kyoukai respectively, but I don't know.

I feel like coalition and state of ai set Ouhon/Mouten vs Kouyoku/Hakurei in stone.

It’s a reasonable theory but I don’t think Hara goes for the repeat. I think Kou Yoku wins his duel fair and square. He’s close to surpassing Tou already, it won’t be long before he surpasses him.
The main reason why I think Hakurei will interfere is solely because I think Hara would Tou as dignified as a death as possible. He seems to like the guy quite a bit.

I personally believe Kouen vs Shin round 1 will happen after Kouyoku and Hakurei are dead, so Kouen will have very personal beef with Qin.


As for why Ou Hon diverts the Yellow River, I don’t see him doing something so extreme that is guaranteed to result in fury and murderous intent from Shin and condemnation from Mou Ten unless he’s operating from a fucked up place. I’m talking immense frustration with himself either because of harsh words from Ou Sen or losing out on a 6GG spot.


Sei will already far gone enough to support his decision, and I believe SHK will move after this because he fears Sei will have him killed as well - be it for failure or the fact he has royal blood that could threaten the new Qin hegemony he is trying to establish
.
I think it would be best if it was done for the reasons you stated(frustaration with his father and not getting a spot) and Qin being in a bad position. Hara should make it so Ouhon has to defeat Gouhoumei and Wei or Qin will be in danger of losing land from Chu or something. because they have large amounts of men in Wei. Or maybe Qi will be an enemy at that point.

Just like Qin will have had to take out Riboku in an unconventional manner, I think GHM will be so capable that Ouhon will have to resort to flooding in order to achieve victory. (I picture GHM committing suicide after it happens).

I think Shouheikun should betray because he decides Sei is too dangerous to rule. He should be fully dedicated to crushing Qin
 
I believe Karin will get the Juuko generals under her. So far we haven't seen any confirmed generals/commanders outside of Bamyuu as part of the Karin army.
I think so too. There was also her younger brother, Ka En. I wouldn't be surprised if he were a general by now.

She should have more though, considering she has 300K troops.

do you recall what chapter that was mentioned? I only remember seeing it on the wiki, but it sounds like something that was said.
I want to say some time around or before Koku Yoku. I'll have to look it up.

Do you think Renpa will be a major opponent for Qin in the future? It's worth noting Mougou did say something along the lines of "even though he's an old geezer he's as strong as his prime". so he's a major exception.

then again Mougou's blows against Renpa were stronger than any other blow.
I'd be surprised if he wasn't.

Spoiler: the reason why i think yoku is his son is because of historical spoilers the famed warlord, Xiang Yu is Xiang Yan/Kouen's grandson. I think he'll be born soon as the child of Kouyoku and Karin. I believe him and Liu Bang will be prominent figures of Kingdom's epilogue/
I believe the exact relation between Xiang Yan and Xiang Yu is in dispute. Some records and historians believe he was his great grandson, others his grandson. Are you familiar with the naming theory? Regardless, it's entirely possible Kou En had Kou Yoku late in life. Shooters shoot.

Moubu vs Man'U
Mouten vs Hakurei
Ouhon vs Yoku

idk about Gen'U and Sentou'un. I'd like them to be fed to a strong Hi Shin general or Kyoukai respectively, but I don't know.

I feel like coalition and state of ai set Ouhon/Mouten vs Kouyoku/Hakurei in stone.
Gen'U and Haku Rei combined forces against the armies of Wei, so maybe we see it again.

Out of the two, Gen'U definitely strikes me as a better match up for Mou Ten, given his skill as a general.

The main reason why I think Hakurei will interfere is solely because I think Hara would Tou as dignified as a death as possible. He seems to like the guy quite a bit.

I personally believe Kouen vs Shin round 1 will happen after Kouyoku and Hakurei are dead, so Kouen will have very personal beef with Qin.
I see the logic but I also think there is a greater priority in establishing Kou Yoku and Haku Rei are legitimate players by giving them real achievements. I also don't think there'll be any shame in Tou losing a fair and square duel against an extremely talented, younger man - especially if it's under heroic and/or disadvantageous conditions.

I think it would be best if it was done for the reasons you stated(frustaration with his father and not getting a spot) and Qin being in a bad position. Hara should make it so Ouhon has to defeat Gouhoumei and Wei or Qin will be in danger of losing land from Chu or something. because they have large amounts of men in Wei. Or maybe Qi will be an enemy at that point.
I think the flooding will happen at a time no one is capable of stopping it. I believe Shin will be engaged with the full might of the Gai Mou Army and Tou with the forces of Go Hou Mei, while Ou Hon is tasked to seize the capitol in a small time window - a task he refuses to fail at, no matter the cost.

I hope GHM survives and joins the forces of Qi to help boost their army.


Just like Qin will have had to take out Riboku in an unconventional manner, I think GHM will be so capable that Ouhon will have to resort to flooding in order to achieve victory. (I picture GHM committing suicide after it happens).
Very good point.

I think Shouheikun should betray because he decides Sei is too dangerous to rule. He should be fully dedicated to crushing Qin
I think by this point Sei will be in tyrant mode and killing people that displease him, so SHK will pre-emptively go into a self-imposed exile to avoid his wrath after a setback, without any intentions of betrayal. Then, as Sei gets worse and worse, Kou En makes contact and he agrees to become king of Chu to stop his rampage.
 
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