Rules Kingdom General Discussion
- Thread starter Patryipe
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I keep telling y'all not to take statements and opinions expressed by the characters in Kingdom as gospel for a reason.
Hara's writing is especially prone to hyperbole. It's a minor drawback on a style of writing that's really good for creating tension, stakes and anticipation at a good pace.
Context, context, context, context, context.
Without it, you'd think half the slain generals in this manga were living legends.
Hara's writing is especially prone to hyperbole. It's a minor drawback on a style of writing that's really good for creating tension, stakes and anticipation at a good pace.
Context, context, context, context, context.
Without it, you'd think half the slain generals in this manga were living legends.
Yeah, I also remember Shoumou doing the whole one handed, skull crushing grip feat that I can only remember real muscular monsters like Zenou, Rozo and Houken doing (though those three crushed a helmet + skull).
Rinbou also waxed lyrical about Shoumou's strength and genuinely thought that he was capable of defeating Ouki. This is the same Rinbou that was in an army that would have fought against the likes of Kaishibou, Gyou'un and Renpa on a regular basis.
The best answer I have to contextualize Shoumou's strength is that Shoumou was a legitimate physical beast but he had little to no experience fighting against opponents that could match him or overpower him. Shoumou was so used to steamrolling through opponents and dominating duels that facing off against someone that was stronger than him (like Ouki) was a reality check that he wouldn't survive.
Makes me wonder how the feck Rinbou survived Shoumou if this is the case though. Shoumou could have been dicking around I guess and Rinbou (who was used to monstrous opponents like Kaishibou and Gyou'un) was simply able to survive long enough to see the result of Shin's success against Fuuki which caused Chou Sou to recall the whole Zhao Army.
Rinbou also waxed lyrical about Shoumou's strength and genuinely thought that he was capable of defeating Ouki. This is the same Rinbou that was in an army that would have fought against the likes of Kaishibou, Gyou'un and Renpa on a regular basis.
The best answer I have to contextualize Shoumou's strength is that Shoumou was a legitimate physical beast but he had little to no experience fighting against opponents that could match him or overpower him. Shoumou was so used to steamrolling through opponents and dominating duels that facing off against someone that was stronger than him (like Ouki) was a reality check that he wouldn't survive.
Makes me wonder how the feck Rinbou survived Shoumou if this is the case though. Shoumou could have been dicking around I guess and Rinbou (who was used to monstrous opponents like Kaishibou and Gyou'un) was simply able to survive long enough to see the result of Shin's success against Fuuki which caused Chou Sou to recall the whole Zhao Army.
Thinking about it more, this statement is probably somewhat legitimate mostly because of circumstances.
During Bayou Arc, Renpa and his gang had long left Zhao, Gyou'un was in retirement so he wasn't active and Shibashou and co. flat out refused to fight for Toujou. So none of these blokes were part of the Zhao military at the time.
This only leaves Bananji. While Bananji could have challenged Shoumou for the title, Bananji was only interested in fighting Xiongnu at that point since Ei Sei's (and by extension Qin's) desire to unify China and wipe out the other states weren't widely known at that point to the Warring States. It was only because of the reveal of this desire that Bananji became invested in fighting against Qin.
Also, Bananji is a subordinate of Riboku, who the Zhao Court detest and so they wouldn't openly admit that the strongest General in all of Zhao was a subordinate of Riboku out of spite. Bananji's desire to only fight Xiongnu and stay deployed in the obscure and isolated region of Ganmon also made this denial easy to sell to the rest of Zhao and China.
So yeah, Shoumou probably was legitimately considered the strongest offensive General of Zhao since he was the only widely known and consistently active Zhao General with that level of strength. Everyone who could challenge and beat him had either left, was inactive or was active in an obscure region that limited their ability to gain renown.
During Bayou Arc, Renpa and his gang had long left Zhao, Gyou'un was in retirement so he wasn't active and Shibashou and co. flat out refused to fight for Toujou. So none of these blokes were part of the Zhao military at the time.
This only leaves Bananji. While Bananji could have challenged Shoumou for the title, Bananji was only interested in fighting Xiongnu at that point since Ei Sei's (and by extension Qin's) desire to unify China and wipe out the other states weren't widely known at that point to the Warring States. It was only because of the reveal of this desire that Bananji became invested in fighting against Qin.
Also, Bananji is a subordinate of Riboku, who the Zhao Court detest and so they wouldn't openly admit that the strongest General in all of Zhao was a subordinate of Riboku out of spite. Bananji's desire to only fight Xiongnu and stay deployed in the obscure and isolated region of Ganmon also made this denial easy to sell to the rest of Zhao and China.
So yeah, Shoumou probably was legitimately considered the strongest offensive General of Zhao since he was the only widely known and consistently active Zhao General with that level of strength. Everyone who could challenge and beat him had either left, was inactive or was active in an obscure region that limited their ability to gain renown.
Show > Tell
It's a basic tenet of writing.
Hara will write statements, opinions and views expressed in the manga that don't necessarily line up with what happens or the stats he comes up with in supplemental material.
If the 4HK were making their debut in Chu, you could bet your house they'd have considerably different stats. They'd be hyped in a completely different way.
Shou Mou was strong, but you can and should pretty much ignore the absurd hyperbole around him, and that goes for everyone else in the manga - whether it's someone we know like Ri Boku or Mou Bu, or someone yet to be introduced in full like Shi Ba Shou and Kou En.
It's a basic tenet of writing.
Hara will write statements, opinions and views expressed in the manga that don't necessarily line up with what happens or the stats he comes up with in supplemental material.
If the 4HK were making their debut in Chu, you could bet your house they'd have considerably different stats. They'd be hyped in a completely different way.
Shou Mou was strong, but you can and should pretty much ignore the absurd hyperbole around him, and that goes for everyone else in the manga - whether it's someone we know like Ri Boku or Mou Bu, or someone yet to be introduced in full like Shi Ba Shou and Kou En.
Why should we ignore such a statement? As @Owl Ki said, there were no other active Zhao generals competing with Shou Mou for strongest offensive power. Shibashou was inactive, Gyou’Un and Garyuu never engaged the other states, Bananji was tied up in the north, Gakuhaku Kou was in Kantan..
Shoumou literally had no competition for his title.
Shoumou literally had no competition for his title.
Isn't relying on the stat system Tell > Show though?
Also, the stat system is pure garbage. The worst one is Shouheikan vs Wategi. Both have STR 91, result is a neg diff fight.
Let us also not forget Great General Gokei having the same Experience rank (B) as fucking Kaine. Kaine isn't even a General. Lel.
Is it absurd hyperbole though?
At the time that this was said of Shoumou, which active Zhao General would beat Shoumou for the title of "strongest offensive power of Zhao"?
Renpa and his subordinates had left Zhao.
Gyou'un was in retirement.
Shibashou and his subordinates refused to fight.
Bananji was only ever deployed in Ganmon and possessed little renown.
Who else is there?
Titles like "best" and "strongest" are comparative terms. A person can technically be bad at something and still be "the best" simply by being better than the competition. Shoumou was better than the competition he had (e.g. Mangoku).
Besides, we should all remember that Shoumou (and all the other Bayou Zhao Generals) were deliberately chosen and sent to fight against Ouki.
Yeah, Ouki made Shoumou look like a scrub but would anybody in their right mind actually send a scrub to fight against Ouki of all people?
Shoumou was hella strong and was one of the best active Generals that Zhao had at the time. Ouki was just a whole level stronger.
Also, the stat system is pure garbage. The worst one is Shouheikan vs Wategi. Both have STR 91, result is a neg diff fight.
Let us also not forget Great General Gokei having the same Experience rank (B) as fucking Kaine. Kaine isn't even a General. Lel.
Is it absurd hyperbole though?
At the time that this was said of Shoumou, which active Zhao General would beat Shoumou for the title of "strongest offensive power of Zhao"?
Renpa and his subordinates had left Zhao.
Gyou'un was in retirement.
Shibashou and his subordinates refused to fight.
Bananji was only ever deployed in Ganmon and possessed little renown.
Who else is there?
Titles like "best" and "strongest" are comparative terms. A person can technically be bad at something and still be "the best" simply by being better than the competition. Shoumou was better than the competition he had (e.g. Mangoku).
Besides, we should all remember that Shoumou (and all the other Bayou Zhao Generals) were deliberately chosen and sent to fight against Ouki.
Yeah, Ouki made Shoumou look like a scrub but would anybody in their right mind actually send a scrub to fight against Ouki of all people?
Shoumou was hella strong and was one of the best active Generals that Zhao had at the time. Ouki was just a whole level stronger.
Debating whether Shou Mou was the strongest general Zhao could field at the time is missing the point. If you'll read again, I didn't contest that claim.
Hara's use of hyperbole is staple of his writing and it can get silly. You should pretty much ignore the grandiose statements and flowery language for the most part because it rarely - if it ever has - aligns with what Hara shows us.
Shou Mou was strong, his strength just didn't live up to the hyperbole used to describe it. That goes for just about everyone in Kingdom. That's the point.
Yes, but who is relying on stats?
They are inherently arbitrary and I have yet to come across any series that incorporates them and manages to remain consistent.
The only thing stats are good are indicating how the author perceives the characters at the time of assigning them. As I said, if the 4HK were making their debut now, their stats would be different.
That Shou Mou's strength "knows no limits"?
Unequivocally, yes.
Again, not the point I was making.
I'm not speaking to Shou Mou's strength relative to Ou Ki or anyone else, or where he ranked among active Zhao generals at the time.
I'm only speaking to Hara's use of hyperbole. It's a staple of his writing and because of that we should take every statement made, view given and opinion expressed with a generous pinch of salt.
Hara's use of hyperbole is staple of his writing and it can get silly. You should pretty much ignore the grandiose statements and flowery language for the most part because it rarely - if it ever has - aligns with what Hara shows us.
Shou Mou was strong, his strength just didn't live up to the hyperbole used to describe it. That goes for just about everyone in Kingdom. That's the point.
Yes, but who is relying on stats?
They are inherently arbitrary and I have yet to come across any series that incorporates them and manages to remain consistent.
The only thing stats are good are indicating how the author perceives the characters at the time of assigning them. As I said, if the 4HK were making their debut now, their stats would be different.
That Shou Mou's strength "knows no limits"?
Unequivocally, yes.
Again, not the point I was making.
I'm not speaking to Shou Mou's strength relative to Ou Ki or anyone else, or where he ranked among active Zhao generals at the time.
I'm only speaking to Hara's use of hyperbole. It's a staple of his writing and because of that we should take every statement made, view given and opinion expressed with a generous pinch of salt.
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Which active Zhao General had greater offensive power than Shoumou then?
1) point out where I refuted the claim Shou Mou was the greatest offensive power in Zhao at the time
2) point out an instance where I relied on stats as anything more than indicators
You'll find no inconsistency in my posts, only increasing evidence of your own illiteracy.
I'm waiting.
