Versus Battle Kisame vs Orochimaru

[Jiihad]

Aight, so who wins this? Tha Monster of tha Hidden Mist or Tha Snake Sannin?

https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Orochimaru

Orochimaru is a Sannin and while not tha weakest, Jiraiya is tha stronger of tha 3(with Sage Mode). Samehada is tha main reason why I’d give this to Kisame(Arlong with tha Great Shark Bomb that eats Chakra). Imo I think it’s jus a mismatch, Orochimaru’s main area of expertise and main arsenal(Jutsu) are rendered basically useless in this fight. Along with Kisame already beastly stamina paired with Samehada to continuously replenish said stamina.

Personally I have it at a high diff for Kisame, am open to arguments tho

@Bogard @Haoshoku @TheAncientCenturion @ZenZu @WillOfMyD @Cinera @Van @Light D Lamperouge @Gol D. Roger @Draco @comrade @Sentinel

 

[Uncle Van]

Killer Bee has better feats than Orochimaru but Kisame practically left Bee powerless due how Samahada can sap chakra. Bee has way more chakra than Orochimaru and is also faster with more attack power plus better CQC ability.

Kisame wins.

 

[Gargo]

Aight, so who wins this? Tha Monster of tha Hidden Mist or Tha Snake Sannin?

https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Orochimaru

Orochimaru is a Sannin and while not tha weakest, Jiraiya is tha stronger of tha 3(with Sage Mode). Samehada is tha main reason why I’d give this to Kisame(Arlong with tha Great Shark Bomb that eats Chakra). Imo I think it’s jus a mismatch, Orochimaru’s main area of expertise and main arsenal(Jutsu) are rendered basically useless in this fight. Along with Kisame already beastly stamina paired with Samehada to continuously replenish said stamina.

Personally I have it at a high diff for Kisame, am open to arguments tho

@Bogard @Haoshoku @TheAncientCenturion @ZenZu @WillOfMyD @Cinera @Van @Light D Lamperouge @Gol D. Roger @Draco @comrade @Sentinel

Wow. This GONY guy did an amazing Artwork of Kisame.

:cheers:

Post automatically merged: Jan 20, 2020

While I see Kisame Superior to Orochimaru in "battle Abilities".
Like Chakra, strenght, speed, even hand to hand fighting ( Orochimaru still super strong with Kusanagi ).

Post automatically merged: Jan 20, 2020

Post automatically merged: Jan 20, 2020

I think that Orochimaru Wins this because :
-> He knows that Kisame is really strong in pure battle strenght
-> He knows about Samehada
-> He has tons of means of escaping death until Poisoning, Scelling Kisame

 

[Finalbeta]

Orochimaru is too haxxed if not sick. Edo Tensei for the win.

 

[Light D Lamperouge]

Powescaling Naruto. Haven't done that in a long time. Might have forgotten a thing or two, so forgive me if I skip something.

I'll start with some portrayal.

Itachi warns Kisame that in a fight with Kakashi he won't be able to get away scot-free, and will suffer heavy injuries and that it would be a prolonged battle. Kisame was aware of Kakashi's reputation and did not find it weird that he stopped his attack, and was even honoured that Kakashi knew his name.

Spoiler

The same Kakashi, that Itachi presented as a danger to Kisame and Kisame agreed, was pissing his pants at the mere sight of Orochimaru. He started sweating buckets, remained silent when Orochimaru provoked him, and considered himself a fool for even thinking of fighting him.

Spoiler

Kisame himself places the Sanin and thus Orochimaru above him.

Spoiler

Tbf, I've seen many talks about the first panel, and that it might be the Kyubi that Kisame is talking about, however, in the second one Kisame places the Sanin above his infamy. Moreover, Kisame was perplexed as to why they had to flee, but singling out Itachi's power in the confrontation with Jiraiya, nothing of his.

Spoiler

Orochimaru shares his title with Jiraiya, and has been portrayed as an equal to him.

That's what I remember about their portrayal referencing the same opponents (Kakashi and Jiraiya).

I don't remember all of their feats really well and I am really not planning on re-reading it soon. Samehada's ability could be the key factor here. But then again, Orochimaru can stay out of range of the water prison using Manda I guess. So, I am not exactly sure how this can go down. Kisame, from what I remember, had good feats against Bee, but was kinda tailor-made to take on Bee. I am open to hearing more arguments for either side winning. Though, with ET Orochimaru stomps. Itachi claps them both though.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

Orochimaru wins this, assuming Edo Tensei is restricted. He's the only character in the series that Kishimoto felt required to nerf for the entire duration of the manga, until we had entered the realm of God Tier. His power and potential is insane, just barely below the Doujutsu trio (arguably above a sick Itach with his Zetsu body). Kisame's right there with him, by the manga's own statement, shoulder to shoulder with Itachi. But Orochimaru keeps a solid edge of Kisame. Serpentine form making large scale suiton difficult to capitalize on. Manda being even more effective in the water, most likely, et cetera. It's a lot like the Jiraiya match up where large scale summonings help to hinder Kisame's end game abilities in any fight.

Not a complete stomp or anything, I think it's a solid High Diff match up.

@Light D Lamperouge Common misconception for the panel where Kisame puts the Sannin above him, he's actually referring to the Kyuubi not Jiraiya.

 

[Light D Lamperouge]

@Light D Lamperouge Common misconception for the panel where Kisame puts the Sannin above him, he's actually referring to the Kyuubi not Jiraiya.

I am aware of both interpretations. If anyone here had the raw version of it, we could maybe get one of the translators to tell us what exactly is being said. Maybe there's a difference.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

I am aware of both interpretations. If anyone here had the raw version of it, we could maybe get one of the translators to tell us what exactly is being said. Maybe there's a difference.

Maybe @FloriGlori or @comrade have the raw versions?

 

[Light D Lamperouge]

Maybe @FloriGlori or @comrade have the raw versions?

I found it.

@Den_Den_Mushi @EtenBoby Would you by any chance be able to translate this dialogue for us? In your opinion, does it feel like they are talking about two different things/people, one in the upper row, another one in the last row? Does anything hint at two different entities involved?

Tag any other translator you know TAC, in case DenDen and Eten are busy.

 

[Deleted member 83]

I found it.

@Den_Den_Mushi @EtenBoby Would you by any chance be able to translate this dialogue for us? In your opinion, does it feel like they are talking about two different things/people, one in the upper row, another one in the last row? Does anything hint at two different entities involved?

Tag any other translator you know TAC, in case DenDen and Eten are busy.

I haven’t watched Naruto series after that Boruto movie so I’m basing the names of characters and group off of my memory.


Kisame: Even if you might be able to do something about him I don’t know about myself, he’s on a different level
Itachi: Indeed...we’ll both be killed if we fought him, even if things go well it’ll just be a draw.
...Even if we call for more men most likely nothing will change.
Kisame: It was nice that we finally found him at the Ramen shop...but the one taking care of him is one of the “Legendary Sannin”. With him as our opponent, even the titles of “Uchiha clan of Konoha” and “Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist” pale in comparison.

 

[Light D Lamperouge]

I haven’t watched Naruto series after that Boruto movie so I’m basing the names of characters and group off of my memory.


Kisame: Even if you might be able to do something about him I don’t know about myself, he’s on a different level
Itachi: Indeed...we’ll both be killed if we fought him, even if things go well it’ll just be a draw.
...Even if we call for more men most likely nothing will change.


Kisame: It was nice that we finally found him at the Ramen shop...but the one taking care of him is one of the “Legendary Sannin”. With him as our opponent, even the titles of “Uchiha clan of Konoha” and “Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist” pale in comparison.

Thank you very much.

So in your opinion and based on how it's written there, are they talking about Naruto and the Kyubi in the first part or Jiraiya?



My interpretation would go like this. Since they are repeating him in the first part and then move on to the second part and Kisame again says him and remarks that his guardian is Jiraiya, they should be talking about Naruto and the Kyubi in the first part. What's more, Jiraiya would get clapped by Itachi alone, let alone the entire Akatsuki.

 

[Deleted member 83]

Thank you very much.

So in your opinion and based on how it's written there, are they talking about Naruto and the Kyubi in the first part or Jiraiya?



My interpretation would go like this. Since they are repeating him in the first part and then move on to the second part and Kisame again says him and remarks that his guardian is Jiraiya, they should be talking about Naruto and the Kyubi in the first part. What's more, Jiraiya would get clapped by Itachi alone, let alone the entire Akatsuki.

Personally I feel like they’re all talking about Jiraiya(I’m not crazy) and it’s one of those things that an author decided to change as the story goes on

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

Personally I feel like they’re all talking about Jiraiya(I’m not crazy) and it’s one of those things that an author decided to change as the story goes on

Thanks for the translation Eten, even if you did call me crazy

 

[Light D Lamperouge]

Personally I feel like they’re all talking about Jiraiya(I’m not crazy) and it’s one of those things that an author decided to change as the story goes on

Both are possible. I guess it might be meant to be ambiguous like that.

 

[Deleted member 83]

Thanks for the translation Eten, even if you did call me crazy

Regardless of your stand on this debate, I am saying that they’re both talking about Jiraiya

 

[Bogard]

I haven’t watched Naruto series after that Boruto movie so I’m basing the names of characters and group off of my memory.


Kisame: Even if you might be able to do something about him I don’t know about myself, he’s on a different level
Itachi: Indeed...we’ll both be killed if we fought him, even if things go well it’ll just be a draw.
...Even if we call for more men most likely nothing will change.
Kisame: It was nice that we finally found him at the Ramen shop...but the one taking care of him is one of the “Legendary Sannin”. With him as our opponent, even the titles of “Uchiha clan of Konoha” and “Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist” pale in comparison.

Personally I feel like they’re all talking about Jiraiya(I’m not crazy) and it’s one of those things that an author decided to change as the story goes on

Regardless of your stand on this debate, I am saying that they’re both talking about Jiraiya

@TheAncientCenturion after hearing this It was obvious they were referring to Jiraya, they literally planned to evade him by using a girl as a distraction. It would take a huge amount of mental gymnastic to think otherwise lol. But damn your translation make them even look weaker than i thought. I originally thought it was meant to imply Itachi and Jiraya were equals with Kisame a tier below, but based on your translation, it makes Jiraya look stronger than Itachi

 

[Bogard]

I've long thought that was retconned. This wasn't hype for Jiraiya in particular, but for the Sannin in general. Itachi even mentioned that having back up from other Akatsuki members would have likely made no difference. Said hype goes out the window when we learned that 3 Tomoe Itachi basically low diffed Orochimaru (with the latter admitting inferiority), and Itachi and Kisame are significantly beyond Tsuande.

Looking at all the facts, in my humble opinion the most parsimonious explanation is simply that Kishi changed his mind about how strong the Sannin were supposed to be.

I already gave an explanation where while Sannin certainly had more hype preskip, it was more Jiraya related in a post before: https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/forum/threads/jiraiya-vs-kisame.2401/#post-188529

Even post-skip, Kakashi(who fought Itachi) thought Akatsuki was trying to avoid Jiraya

Spoiler

And considering even Akatsuki leader thought Jiraya might have beaten him with knowledge, considering that Base Jiraya was a tier higher than Base Kabuto, while having SM(that freaked out Itachi and heavily counters Samehada's absorption due to turning into stone) with Pa/Ma as powerful supplementary summons under his command, it all makes sense

Obviously not saying he could handle entire Akatsuki, which would be bullshit, but he was certainly strong enough for even Akatsuki leader to have his hands full on him, hence the perceived threat level he had comparatively to other Akatsuki members

 

[FloriGlori]

Baaaaaaaaah.

Hype constantly changes in Naruto.

The one truth any hardcore Naruto-debater will struggle to accept.

___

Without going into depth, I can see Orochimaru having a huge disadvantage due to medicore chakra/stamina reserves, while Kisame is all about draining stamina. Guess it depends on how well Orochimaru's huge summonings can maneuver inside the water dome and allow him to escape, also on whether he'll be able to fool Kisame into close-range combat in order to make use of his vaporous blood.

The thing annoying me about Orochimaru's portrayal is that he's implied to collect Jutsu and to have mastered a lot them, yet all we see apart from one Fuuton and a few seals is summonings and immortality stuff. Makes him powerful already, but in the end we're unable to grasp his actual fighting skills.

EDIT lol, wrong thread

 

[L o g i a]

With edo: Orochimaru, he'd still get merked but his zombies would win depending on who is summoned

Otherwise Kisame mid/high diff

Orochimaru is at an immediate disadvantage having a small chakra pool, assuming Kisame has Samehada. Now Kisame without Samehada vs Orochimaru without Edo is an interesting debate

 

[Draco]

Orochimaru is both stronger and hardcounters Kisame, his fighting style revolves on snakes summons/forms which are not chakra-constructs, this way Kisame's main point (chakra absorption) becomes completly irrelevant.

Orochimaru can wins thanks Kusanagi that tore sent KN4 Naruto flying through a forest and had him pinned down.

Only reason he survived was because of his cloak. Any other character w/o some sort of special defense would have been peirced and torn apart from getting slammed through hundreds of trees. Samehada will not help here.

There's also Hydra which is bigger than Manda and has regenerative powers comparable to Orochimaru.

And there is White Snake poison. It also hardcounter Kisame regenerative power (coming from Samehada).

Daikodan can walled and redirected by Rashomon gates.

And against Kisamehada big water dome. Manda can lifts him out the dome. Snakes are also aquatic. You probably gonna say:
"How is Manda going to lift him out of the dome? It travels with Kisame; he'll just swim around the two until they die or drown. Kisamehada in the dome is faster than v2 Killer Bee and he is sensor"

Orochimaru can perhaps also use other snakes summon (perhaps Manda himself) to busy Kisamehada while himself (in an other snake) go out of the dome.... Orin fact just using Manda to going underground lol (if in fact Manda isn't aquatic. Even if Manda II was).

As for the rest, it's not the "basic" Suiton and Sharks that will overcome a puncture-proof like Orochimaru.

Orochimaru mid-high diff.