Kouen might be among top 5 strongest characters of all time. Perhaps even stronger than Renpa. Since he's from Chu, I expect his strength to be on par with Kanmei and Moubu, good leadership like Ouki if we're taking into the account of his position as the supreme commander of Chu right now. Maybe very intelligent too (Not Riboku, Ousen, Shouheikun, Kanki, Karin or Gohoumei in terms of big brain obviously). Type of general wise, probably hybrid but more focused on Instinctual.
Stats speculation in my opinion would be: Strength 99, Leadership 95, Intelligence 93, Experience S.
The strongest general in southside China by a mile and probably one of the final big enemies in Kingdom if not the final one. Going by how Qin is expanding, Chu will probably be the last state to be conquered and you can expect Kou’En to show out then. I think he’s going to be a balanced general much like Ouki and Renpa in terms of having the whole package in tactics/insticts but even stronger in individual combat, since his epithet suggests as much.
The strongest general in southside China by a mile and probably one of the final big enemies in Kingdom if not the final one. Going by how Qin is expanding, Chu will probably be the last state to be conquered and you can expect Kou’En to show out then. I think he’s going to be a balanced general much like Ouki and Renpa in terms of having the whole package in tactics/insticts but even stronger in individual combat, since his epithet suggests as much.
He is definitely a monster when :
- Karin reaction in that one panel about Kou En which is, imo, telling. Karin had no problems at throwing insults at Kanmei, for example.
- A young deputy that Kou En sent to face Oukotsu defeated him and the Qin army got the hell out. Talk about of Kou En portrayal...
The same Kanmei who then, later on, would claim to be the strongest in China and the second general in the Chu chain after Kou En himself.
- The Chu king wondering if he had been stingy with the forces he sent to the coalition and Renpa telling him that if he talks of being stingy, he should have looked at Kou En. And then, amongst those "stingy" forces, you have Karin being greatly hyped by both Riboku (called her the real deal) and Shunshinkun (called her a genius at warfare), outplaying almost everyone to conquer Kankoku pass and even claiming, strategy and tactics aside, her strenght to be on par with that of Kanmei. Now I don't actually believe this to be the case but she is definitely going to be a very strong fighter herself.
Imo, Kou En is a top 5 all time general when it comes to the manga, the hype Hara has placed on him is enormous. The other four would be Riboku, Hakuki, Ousen and Gakuki.
I would say Renpa is up there with those generals too, with his defensive strategy keeping a stalemate with Ouki, Hakuki and therefore Qin aint a small deal, and that would have lasted more until the dumb king replaced him with a less experienced general, that's probably how Zhao got crippled greatly too with Hakuki massacring 400,000.
Such a grave mistake, but hey I guess let's add Great General Kakukai too among the top 7, he plays a great contribution to Qin.
He is incredibly strong and very capable, easily 10 of all time, and possibly top 5. I would put him onpar or a little above Ouki/Renpa. Despite his lack of mentions in the series, he has some insane hype.
We know that he was a Great General during the era of King Sho and Qin's Six Great Generals.
Infact, he was directly sent out to fight Oukotsu, the 6GGs with the highest amount of brute strength. I believe he engineered a plan that put Young Kanmei in a position to defeat Oukotsu.
One of his epithets is also "The Tiger of Chu". The only other care who's been described as a tiger is Shibashou, somebody who has Great Heavens level talent and was capable of holding off a 20,000 Yan Army with only 5,000 men.
Kouen is clearly very experienced and well respected.
After the death of Kanmei in the Coalition War, Kouretsu, the current King of Chu at the time comments that he was stingy while sending soldiers to participate in the Coaliton War.
Renpa, suggests that the Chu king should have sent Kouen if he felt like he was stingy.
. The fact that both Renpa, one of the greatest generals of all time and Kouretsu, someone who ruled over his court and had Shunshinkun(possibly the most powerful man in China at the time) under his control both seem to respect Kouen is mad hype to me.
Indeed;
Kouen is no doubt a capable strategist and very intelligent, but this tells me that he's looking for a strong leader. Luckily, Chu will get a verrry capable leader if Hara continues to follow history.
Speaking of Karin, she refers to him as "General Kouen"
. This is the same Karin that called Kanmei a ape and Ordo retarded. Karin then chooses to accept Rien's proposition and becomes Prime Minister of Chu afterward. Considering how Karin was described as being a "prodigy of warfare", and she's relatively unknown, I think there's a possibility Karin directly served under Kouen like Kanmei did.
Karin also seemingly tolerates disrespect from Kouyoku, someone who's Chinese name is translated to Xiang Yi, while Kouen's translated name is Xiang Yu. Considering how Kouyoku possesses the legendary Bakura Sword that allows him to fight onpar with Tou, I think it's very likely that Kouen and Kouyoku are father and son, but regardless they are 100% family.
Kouyoku will likely become a Great General around the same time Shin, Ouhon and Moubu's adopted son do.
I believe Kouen will be an instinctual general, but also a tactical beast. He is likely only slightly weaker than Kanmei/Moubu/Man'U/Gaimou in martial might. He also should be an amazing leader, considering how Karin, someone inferior to him has sway(or direct command) of over 300,000 troops.
Kouen hands Shin and Mouten a gigantic defeat during the first attempted Chu invasion.
Shouheikun starts a rebellion in cities that Shin and Mouten have already conquered, forcing them to turn around, then Kouen sneak attacks both(or just Shin, depending on the source). Kouen then kills 7 of Shin's commanders and utterly defeats him. This is the biggest defeat Qin had in the unification, and it will likely be a huge event for Shin's character arc.
According to some sources, Shouheikun also pincered Shin while he was distracted by Kouen's army. Shouheikun has been subtly built up as a villain for both Shin and Ten, but I still think Kouen will be Shin's biggest Chu opponent.
I would bet on Kouen and Shouheikun being like Kisui and Keisha during the final Chu Arc, two strong generals with the same amount of authority.
According to the Meng Wu and Chu Zi one shot, Shouheikun lives as a farmer in Chu till Qin takes Chu's royal capital, then Shouheikun serves as the final King of Chu and dies in the final war. That means Kouen was in charge of Chu till the final year of Chu's existence, 223BC.
Kouen also commands an army of 500,000 historically, and fights against Ousen and Moubu's army of 600,000 later.
Kouen is the grandfather of Xiang Yu, someone who historically was a complete monster. Considering how Hara said he wanted to end the manga with the rise of Han, I think he will likely get to see at least a glimpse of Xiang Yu in action.
Considering how notorious Xiang Yu was, I think Hara will take the cues and portray Kouen as a total monster.
Historically, he was definitely a badass.
I would bet on his stats being something like this:
He also likely possesses a monstrous amount of weight, and I believe he is capable of beating Bayou Houken with the same difficulty as Ouki did.
Riboku was first hyped up by defeating 200,000k Northern Mountain People with 130,000k, I can see Kouen being hyped up in a similar manner, for example, let's say he beats 230,000k with only 140,000k men or something.
Kouen's subordinates will likely be former Great Generals of smaller conquered states. I expect them to be on par or stronger than the Heavenly Kings and Rinshoujou's 10 Heroes.
I can see Man'U being one of Kouen's retainers.
Roughly onpar with them in overall ability. A war between him and Riboku would be interesting, Kouen likely spent most of his time in Southern Chu while Riboku spent most of his time in Northern Zhao fighting the XIongu.
A hybrid general, but specializes in instincts. I believe he will be the pinnacle of instinctual generals in the manga. Only EOS Shin will be above him instinctually.
Kou En will undeniably be a beast. Not sure how he'll compare to Riboku and the rest, but I think he'll be the most threatening General in Chu at that point. Even taking into account Karin and *spoiler* who will be alongside him.
How do you think he'll compare to the likes of Riboku, Ousen and the other generals who stand at the top? Also, what kind of general do you expect him to be?
I expect Kou En to be an old, no nonsense curmudgeon. In my headcanon, he will resemble Barragan from Bleach or Ko Chou's features with Mou Gou's frame, and a personality crossing between Chou Tou and Gen Po.
Having the longest service record in Chu history, Kou En is already an old man. I imagine he is semi-retired to his lands somewhere away from the capital, content to sit out the endless scheming at court, but certainly not out of the loop. By the time he becomes a player on the battlefield he will probably be closer to 90 than 70. I suspect we will learn he became known as the Tiger of Chu as a warrior in his youth, and then later as Conqueror of the East in consolidating the territories of the former Qi superstate and becoming the greatest military commander in Chu history along the way.
And then we have Kou En, the Tiger of Chu. The big boss. How do you think he'll compare to the likes of Riboku, Ousen and the other generals who stand at the top? Also, what kind of general do you expect him to be?
He should be on the same level as Riboku (if not superior) and superior to Ousen going into the Chu campaign. There is already very key information Hara has dropped regarding Kouen.
Kingdom timeline so far & Where Kouen fits in:
As we know he is renowned as the Conqueror of the East. Many assume that means he took part in the coalition against that superstate Qi. I however, simply disagree because the timeline and age for what he would be by the time the Chu invasion happens would be too insane. I do not see Hara giving us an out of prime Kouen for Chu. Which is what he would be were we to go with the assumption he was a big general during the coalition (so roughly somewhere in his 20s at minimum).. meaning about the time of the Chu invasion he'd be around 80 years old, which is simply unrealistic to me even by Kingdom standards for the role he's meant to play.
There is a time period that happens (in the kingdom timeline) from 280 BC (Gakuki retires and leaves to Zhao) to where we're introduced to Chu as the superstate in the coalition arc.
From 279 BC to 260 BC - Chu wasn't all that in terms of being a state, and was getting dogged on by the Qin, to a point Qin conquered the Chu capital. I believe Kouen at this point would've been an active military officer. He more than likely participated and proved his capabilities against Hakuki and co during those Qin invasions.
The state of Chu in terms of rough historical map by that time:
Then soon after Qin goes through the Chouhei shit, and King Sho dies, etc etc. As Kanmei and etc pointed Chu & Qin hadn't faced in the past 20 or so years. Meaning they had not faced each other since Hakuki and co's invasion of the Chu capital (which was pretty much 20 years prior to the Coalition army attack on the Qin).
The story then tells us that from the year 260-241 BC, Shunshinkun turned the state of Chu into a superstate by conquering the small states around them, which had powerful generals like Man'U and such. What's major here is that post Hakuki and co taking over the western part of Chu in 260 BC, this is when Chu decides to expand East. As you can see in the rough historical map below, there is a significant territorial gain made by Chu in the East. I believe this is what Hara will use for "Conqueror of the East".
Now in the manga the map for Chu is considerably different:
So we can expect a heightened "exaggeration" or w.e you'd want to call it for what Kouen did in conquering the eastern lands for the Chu. There will likely be a threat akin to the Xiongnu in the North created for him, something that's sort of hinted in Rinbukun's flashback, so these guys are 1 possible threat for conqueror fo the East:
The other being small Kingdoms akin to Juuko lying in the Eastern parts of China under Qi and next to Chu. Which as mentioned before plays into the whole thing about what Rokoumi states about how there's powerful mfs anywhere you go into Chu.
Summary of the KOUEN timeline:
- Participates in the huge Qin vs Chu wars that happen between 280BC-260BC, rising to the rank of a General/Great General by the end of it. Which he had become a top tier general, I don't think he was the main dog of Chu by the end of it. So Great General could be a reach, but at the very least he was a general.
- From 260-245 or so, he conquers the Eastern (+ partially southern) area of China. Where he'd face the Baiyue people (could be akin to the Xiongnu or just a downgraded Xiongnu) + Powerful small states akin to the Juuko ones. This is where he establishes himself as the top dog without a doubt. This is the time period when he for sure become a Great General, as he was one when Kanmei and co went against Oukutsu.
"longest service record" - simply means the person who has been in military for the most time, not the oldest mf in the military. I see him as being somebody who joined the military even under the age of 10, a prodigy like no other (especially considering who is grandson was). I think he'll be younger than Renpa for sure.
KOUEN - RIBOKU Comparison:
- As pointed out earlier in the historical timeline. I believe Hara has already set up Kouen's "xiongnu" equivalent or whatever you'd wanna call it, in comparison to Riboku, with the Baiyue people & Smaller states that Chu engulfed. Because we are to go by Bananji, Riboku has yet to face a threat as formidable as the Xiongnu. And as we know Riboku also had past experience as a soldier before going to Ganmon and had established himself as a general. So we could see a similar trajectory of Kouen establishing himself as a general in the Chu-Qin Wars, then then establishing himself as a Great General top 1 during his conquering of the East.
- Now Hara himself goes out of his way to drop this. You see Shouheikun and Ei Sei are discussing the threats that could stop them. The possibility of a coalition army is brought up.
Shouheikun then explains that another coalition won't happen, due to Shunshinkun (who possessed power rivaling a King) is dead & Riboku has been disgraced due to that failure. He tells everyone in the room that there is nobody in China who possesses the clout and prestige to lead another coalition.
He then states he would never allow such a thing to happen in the first place, due to them spreading out agents to disrupt relations between the states.
BUT right then and there Hara does something crucial, something very important for the future of the story. You see he has Shouheikun doubt his words. Shouheikun here thinks and then thinks to himself... ok maybe "Does not exist another figure with enough prestige and clout...." was an exaggeration. Why? Because to the mfin east is 1 figure whose true prowess they know very little of.
So Hara is giving the implication of Kouen being somebody who has enough clout to rival Riboku (The Prime minister + Top general of Zhao) & Shunshinkun (1 of the 4 lords of the warring states, possessing enough prowess to rival a King). That is what we are possibly getting from Kouen.
- Who is the person that Rein seeks out after Shunshinkun and the King are out of commission? Kouen. It is Kouen who guides Rein on the steps needed. And simply look at even Karin's face when Kouen is mentioned. More than likely he himself has no ambition of a political office like CoM & Prime Minister.
Conclusion:
I believe we will be getting peak Kouen, meaning physically & experience wise, he would be at the peak. And as a sheer general (not prime minister and long term campaigning and etc) I very much can see Kouen being the top 1 when we hit Chu Campaign. And there's enough historical during that campaign to justify that stance in terms of creative writing.
BUT at the VERY LEAST I do believe he will be Riboku caliber, even if he isn't better than Riboku. For me he is the top general in China right now after Riboku. And for me that's not going to change until something in the manga goes against it, due to what I just laid out above.
There is no other general in this series as much build to their introduction as Kouen. That's fucking insane bro. Think about this, he's first mentioned in the coalition army late 200s/early 300s chapter wise. He's then brought up twice in the 400s. And we are all the way into this series nearing 800 chapters, and this man has yet to be introduced in the series.
This is Hara's ENDGAME guy. That big boogeyman for the MC and co to conquer.
- Now Hara himself goes out of his way to drop this. You see Shouheikun and Ei Sei are discussing the threats that could stop them. The possibility of a coalition army is brought up.
Shouheikun then explains that another coalition won't happen, due to Shunshinkun (who possessed power rivaling a King) is dead & Riboku has been disgraced due to that failure. He tells everyone in the room that there is nobody in China who possesses the clout and prestige to lead another coalition.
He then states he would never allow such a thing to happen in the first place, due to them spreading out agents to disrupt relations between the states.
BUT right then and there Hara does something crucial, something very important for the future of the story. You see he has Shouheikun doubt his words. Shouheikun here thinks and then thinks to himself... ok maybe "Does not exist another figure with enough prestige and clout...." was an exaggeration. Why? Because to the mfin east is 1 figure whose true prowess they know very little of.
So Hara is giving the implication of Kouen being somebody who has enough clout to rival Riboku (The Prime minister + Top general of Zhao) & Shunshinkun (1 of the 4 lords of the warring states, possessing enough prowess to rival a King). That is what we are possibly getting from Kouen.
Immediately afterwards King Ouken comes in, has a chat with Sei and drops the bombshell that he seriously considered rallying a Coalition Army to crush Qin before Saitaku convinced him otherwise.
That aside, yeah Kouen is gonna be a ridiculously powerful commander.
Also, one panel from another post you had written:
Like I had told to @Great General Kanki...imagine the sheer amount of presence, respect and faith Kouen must command in the Chu.
Renpa also made a point about the Chu's pride and how he wasn't gonna be of much use in the Coalition war if he took command of them, pointing instead to Kouen.
I can see why you and Owl would think that's about Ouken.
Initially up until sometime into the WZI before we started talking about Kouen here, I also believed it was related to Ouken, due to him mentioning the East, and then of course we get Ouken who comes from the East. Though before the discussion of Kouen here with Lee I didn't really give that panel much thinking or time but just skimmed over it. Upon rereading it during those discussions is when I came to the conclusion it's not Ouken, it Kouen (I could be wrong, but I believe I was the first one to point out that being about Kouen here). The reasoning being:
1st. When you look at the panel of the map, while yes what Hara writes is Qi, but what takes up majority of the panel however is not the state of Qi, but Chu. And specifically the Eastern parts of Chu that were taken during Kouen's rise (the 20 year time period I mentioned in my above post). Had Hara wanted Qi to be the focus, he simply would've had the state of Qi be the central focus of the panel or atleast take up majority of it. Instead what we get is the Eastern conquered lands of Chu (cough cough conqueror of the East) taking up majority of the panel, with Qi simply being the location indicator.
2nd. The talk is of a coalition army. In the known history of Kingdom only two coalitions were formed. Who were they formed by? Military Men. First coalition formed by Gakuki, the head of Yan military. Second coalition formed by Riboku (Leader of Zhao military) & Shunshinkun (Leader of Chu Military). It wasn't the Yan King (who possessed more political clout than Gakuki) that formed the coalition it was Gakuki. A king by nature possesses more political clout or what have you than any of the people I mentioned here. Like by default. But the Kings don't form the coalition. Coalitions are formed by the men who will actually lead the coalition. Gakuki who led the first, and Riboku & Shunshunkin who lead the second coalition.
Thus the person who SHK speaks of would be a military man who would be capable of leading a coalition. Ouken is not one such man.
3rd. It can't be Ouken because the Qin would already know the calibre of Ouken due to him and Saitaku being close. Keep in mind, we the readers also already knew of the type of person Ouken was WAY before him pulling up on Qin. So he's not a mystery, and he's never presented as such. SHK would already know the caliber of Ouken through Saitaku (who is EXTREMELY close with SHK).
Overall:
- Eastern Conquered lands of Chu take up center and majority of that panel
- It's related to a military man who's capable of leading a coalition.
- Qin already knows Ouken's caliber, and his character in general isn't a mystery to the reader. He's also gotten decent panel time related to war during the coalition.
With those factors in mind, the only person left is the one sole general who Hara name dropped in the Coalition arc, twice, without ever showing him. In the coalition arc he's brought up as "Tiger of Chu" aka this man is the symbol of Chu's prowess akin to Shibashou being for Seika. He's named dropped again post-Coalition as "Conqueror of the East". Yet still no face on the man.
-> Eastern lands of Chu that take up majority of that panel -> Chu's #1 great general "Conqueror of the East"
-> Military man who's capable of leading a coalition -> The 1st-in-command of the Military of the strongest state
-> Somebody who SHK wouldn't know much about -> character which the Qin had never shown interacting with and which we the readers have also never seen.
Then we have "The East" itself, there's only 2 major figures in the manga who have been correlated to the East in regards to strength/prowess.... and one of them is Kouen.
But yea addition to what I already mentioned historically in the above post, I'm 100% confident this is about Kouen, not Ouken.
That aside, yeah Kouen is gonna be a ridiculously powerful commander.
Also, one panel from another post you had written:
Like I had told to @Great General Kanki...imagine the sheer amount of presence, respect and faith Kouen must command in the Chu.
Renpa also made a point about the Chu's pride and how he wasn't gonna be of much use in the Coalition war if he took command of them, pointing instead to Kouen.
I expect Kouen to have more morale boosting prowess than Renpa or Ouki tbh.
His title "Tiger of Chu" easily rivals Ouki's "Monstrous Bird of Qin", though I would argue it's superior due to the symbolism of "Tiger". So what he means to that fucking state is going to be insane, based on what we're told regarding the process from Rinbukun on how somebody becomes a general or even soldier in Chu.
I would reckon it rivals Yotanwa's with Mountain people.
I expect Kouen to have more morale boosting prowess than Renpa or Ouki tbh.
His title "Tiger of Chu" easily rivals Ouki's "Monstrous Bird of Qin", though I would argue it's superior due to the symbolism of "Tiger". So what he means to that fucking state is going to be insane, based on what we're told regarding the process from Rinbukun on how somebody becomes a general or even soldier in Chu.
I would reckon it rivals Yotanwa's with Mountain people.
When it comes to comparing Kouen to the old Qin Six/Zhao Three (in the manga) - I believe he's stronger than all of them. He's gonna be an absolute juggernaut, I'm telling you man lol.
When it comes to comparing Kouen to the old Qin Six/Zhao Three (in the manga) - I believe he's stronger than all of them. He's gonna be an absolute juggernaut, I'm telling you man lol.
Thinking more on it after the Gakuki thread, gonna jump off a massive cliff here... He is 100% superior to Riboku and is presently the Best General in China.
Kouen is not affected by any portrayal that Riboku has gotten in his life so I agree with @Xione that Kouen might be > Riboku.
Riboku probably only has limited data on him through hearsay and reputation. Hell I'm not even sure if the Qin six knew anything about Kouen themselves.
If SBS gets this kind of hype I won't be able to handle Kouen.
Kouen is not affected by any portrayal that Riboku has gotten in his life so I agree with @Xione that Kouen might be > Riboku.
Riboku probably only has limited data on him through hearsay and reputation. Hell I'm not even sure if the Qin six knew anything about Kouen themselves.
If SBS gets this kind of hype I won't be able to handle Kouen.
Renpa, who at least knows Kouen, did call Riboku the most dangerous man in China and Ouki did say that "China's battles would now revolve around that man [Riboku]" , as well as very prominent figures like Saitaku, Sei and Ouken agreeing in calling Riboku the greatest threat to Qin's unification plan. That and the other stuff makes me pick Riboku over every other enemy, Kouen included.
That being said, I've said in the past that imo Kouen is the guy who could potentially have a shot at being stronger than Riboku and Hara might find a way to have him written as such - and perhaps some limited data could play into that like you said.
(In any case, he's going to be ridiculous.)
But yeah if they had me pick as of chapter 771, I must give it to Riboku. His portrayal is just too crazy.
the problem with kouen
it's not his short role in history it's just similar to rbk who fought qin only twice in history.
the problem is his late role in kingdom and hara didn't give him any focus (arc with kouen )while the manga will reach almost 1000 without him .
hara has long time to play with rbk and introduce him too early and build him slowly even if we knkw it's filler but it's sorked very well.
but with kouen naha hara can't even if he wanted , the manga is already long and hara is similar to oda age
so logically he doesn't have a chance with kouen build up as he did with rbk
so this reason only .
will make it impossible for kouen to be better than rbk .
Something I was thinking about yesterday: Kou En defended Chu from Oukotsu by sending Kanmei to deal with him. This means Kou En very likely has other 6GG tier vassals.
And would this also mean that Kou En gets credited for defeating Oukotsu as well? As it was his vassal who defeated Oukotsu.
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