General Mafia General Chat

I'm quoting this because it's not relevant to the current game, if it threatens to go there we will leave it for it.

X, can you explain to me, like I'm 5, what the issue is you have with me claiming Indie and not lying about it? What rule am I breaking? How is it even remotely comparable? I don't claim it when the rules ban claiming. I literally claim it *most* of the time, and historically I haven't lied about it. That's it...

You're accusing me of impropriety - the latest in a long line of examples where you seem to get at me or try to take shots for absolutely no reason. If I don't get a good explanation for this, and if you need to leave it till post game do so, but on a personal level I'm not prepared to accept this from you, I'm actually *this* close to calling time on our friendship.
Ratchet, I promise it ain't that deep. Never said you were rule breaking at all. Based on our conversation, I'm not sure if you want to act on the whole truth tell stuff in an official capacity. So I said that's why you let her get away with it because maybe you had some sympathy or understanding. I don't hold what you do with indie stuff anywhere near what Flower does. I'm not trying to take shots of call you anything.

But I'm not really sure why you need to make this a public show and then threaten me with calling time on our friendship? Not really sure what you hope to gain from this. Not really interested in anymore drama either.
 

MUUGEN

呪のろいの王
You bringing this to the public before the game even ended is an issue in itself.

You should know the rules better and you're discussing in game issues outside of the current ongoing game.

Yet you're the section mod so rules don't even apply to you, not like they even apply to begin with.

fucking pathetic........
 
Happy to discuss it in private too if you want X - I have an issue with you both accusing me of cheating and of facilitating cheating because you claim I do it, and I expect this to be either apologised for or recontextualised.
You obviously don't want to discuss this in private because you've never once tried to, despite calling me out numerous times over the last little bit.

I've never accused you of cheating. Never said that. Never said you were facilitating cheating either. But I've made my opinion clear on how I feel about the truth tell. You're the mod of this section. I feel something needs to be done.
 

Ratchet

The End and the Beginning
doesn't sound like a real friend if you're offended by this comment on a personal level then you would've reached out to dest in pms and had a personal discussion with him
I've spoken to him about this several times over the last few months. This is the last straw as far as I'm concerned - your opinion or input is not needed.
For this personal instance the issue is when you claim indie and you go I perfected this meta and have never lied in my 11 years of claiming indie. It is poor sportsmanship show the basis of mafia is lies and deceit. You claiming something and then complaining when someone doesn't believe you so you begin throwing names at players as evidently shown on NF in faves and many other games.
It's not poor sportsmanship, it's literally "I have a tendency to claim this where allowed because I think it's optimal, and also I tend not to lie about it". Absolutely nothing wrong with that. I imagine a great many people have never lied about something within Mafia - being a Cop maybe. Same principle, if your solution is that I should fake claim it for the sake of it then I think that makes my point - this whole discussion is silly.

Speaking of Faves, I'm glad you've brought it up. I've apologised to Naomi and she's accepted that apology - the issue is resolved and I will be more civil with her in the future. I thought we had turned a corner there too, but here we are again. I'm not going to insult you, I will simply re-iterate - I do not agree with Flower's trust tell. Ultimately, I believe it should be up to the host to act on it. I want hosts to have ultimate freedom about what they allow in their games - if you, or anyone complaining, want to host a game and ban it, you have my full backing. When Flower broke a rule by posting her role PM, she received a strike for it, as you did later on. I'm not prepared to micromanage hosts because I believe that will make hosting less appealing.
You won't do anything about though even if you have the entire game telling you it's wrong to do.
This needs to be discussed at the end of the game. I'll let you post in the thread once that has ended so you'll be able to say whatever you want about it then, in that thread, until then, politely, drop it.
Drago was a better mod than you and I have no respect for you in any regard.
You tell me this every time Muugen, it gets old. You're free to have your opinion.
 

Ratchet

The End and the Beginning
You obviously don't want to discuss this in private because you've never once tried to, despite calling me out numerous times over the last little bit.

I've never accused you of cheating. Never said that. Never said you were facilitating cheating either. But I've made my opinion clear on how I feel about the truth tell. You're the mod of this section. I feel something needs to be done.
No no no. You did accuse me of cheating. You were given what happened in the ongoing game and had a comparison drawn, which you then equated, and suggested that I was okay with it because I do something in the same vein. That is both questioning my integrity on a personal level, and accusing me of cheating. You don't get to spin this away because I've taken exception to it.
 

Ratchet

The End and the Beginning
Ratchet, I promise it ain't that deep. Never said you were rule breaking at all. Based on our conversation, I'm not sure if you want to act on the whole truth tell stuff in an official capacity. So I said that's why you let her get away with it because maybe you had some sympathy or understanding. I don't hold what you do with indie stuff anywhere near what Flower does. I'm not trying to take shots of call you anything.

But I'm not really sure why you need to make this a public show and then threaten me with calling time on our friendship? Not really sure what you hope to gain from this. Not really interested in anymore drama either.
I'm not threatening. I don't know why you think it's acceptable to take your frustrations out on me, which I'm pretty sure is what you're doing. Did you give Gramma this earful, when he explicitly allowed it in a game designed to be competitive? Of course you didn't. But you think it's acceptable to say I'm okay with something that's obviously lacking in integrity because I do the same thing and benefit from it? Hogwash, absolute hogwash.

I asked you - what is the issue with my Indie thing? Seriously, what is it? You said I shouldn't do it, so what is it I shouldn't be doing X? Not lying when it doesn't benefit me? Should I not claim when the rules allow it when I'm Indie, is that the issue? Is it that I don't lie (much) and undermine myself when I roll it because there is no reason to?

I think what I "hope to gain from this" is very clear. An actual explanation, because this isn't it. Whether you do it here and now, in private, after the game - I don't care. But if you think I'm going to keep putting up with these little snits because you think I'll just be okay with it- no, I'm not doing that.
 

MUUGEN

呪のろいの王
Speaking of Faves, I'm glad you've brought it up. I've apologised to Naomi and she's accepted that apology - the issue is resolved and I will be more civil with her in the future. I thought we had turned a corner there too, but here we are again. I'm not going to insult you, I will simply re-iterate - I do not agree with Flower's trust tell. Ultimately, I believe it should be up to the host to act on it. I want hosts to have ultimate freedom about what they allow in their games - if you, or anyone complaining, want to host a game and ban it, you have my full backing. When Flower broke a rule by posting her role PM, she received a strike for it, as you did later on. I'm not prepared to micromanage hosts because I believe that will make hosting less appealing.
Faves is what turned me off from you once again, I even tried speaking to you as minimally as possibly in Pokemon and Faves overall. You don't really respect people and you're one of the first to call others out on the same things that you do. You refered to Naomi as a Cunt and whatever else you used. I call be idiots and scum and trash and betatier, anyone outside of kek it stays in game and only there but your attacks always feel heavier and they seem personal. I also thought a new leaf was fine with Flower but I asked her 3 questions and she went right back to her same crybaby, defensive fit mode. It is utterly unenjoyable for everybody and it ruins the entire flow and game overall. Just cause you don't know how to properly defend yourself after 5+ years of playing mafia doesn't mean you can subtly cheat cause things aren't going your way. Cake was right anyone and everyone can give out some stupid truthtell and call it fact. The entirety of dead chat is disappointed & annoyed ofFlower and her shenanigans this game. No one wants it to be allowed that's what i don't understand you don't get.

The only two people who've agreed with flower have been trin and nat, her friends. She's enabled to act in such a poor manor every game truth tell is one thing but the way she carries here is so repetitive and in bad faith.

Your entire job is to moderate this section to keep flowing and in a good state that people enjoy them selves here and want to play more games. You are failing in this regard.
 
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Ratchet

The End and the Beginning
Faves is what turned me off from you once again, I even tried speaking to you as minimally as possibly in Pokemon and Faves overall. You don't really respect people and you're one of the first to call others out on the same things that you do. You refered to Naomi as a Cunt and whatever else you used. I call be idiots and scum and trash and betatier, anyone outside of kek it stays in game and only there but your attacks always feel heavier and they seem personal.
You're assuming an *awful* lot here. What I called Naomi in that game was, obviously, egregious, and not acceptable. It's not how I want to conduct myself. For everything else - what happens in the games stay in the games. You really should know this better about me than you do, I have never had an issue with moving on from conflict within Mafia to being fine with the person outside of it. Not even with you - when you subbed in to the team I was on in Pokemon, did I start anything with you Muugen? Nope, I don't do that. We did fine, won the game, all is well, except apparently not.

It's entirely up to you what you want to think about me. You can call me whatever names you want, I'm beyond done engaging with it. I'm telling you now though, it's never personal with me.
I also thought a new leaf was fine with Flower but I asked her 3 questions and she went right back to her same crybaby, defensive fit mode. It is utterly unenjoyable for everybody and it ruins the entire flow and game overall. Just cause you don't know how to properly defend yourself after 5+ years of playing mafia doesn't mean you can subtly cheat cause things aren't going your way. Cake was right anyone and everyone can give out some stupid truthtell and call it fact. The entirety of dead chat is disappointed in Flower and her shenanigans this game. No one wants it to be allowed that's what i don't understand what you don't get.
I don't necessarily disagree with any part of this. I'm not confused and unsure as to why people are upset - I don't like it too! At the same time, I don't agree with hard ruling against trust tells. I would rather hosts themselves enact it, if they feel it warrants a modkill they have full rights to make one. If they feel it requires a force sub, go right ahead. The problem lies with me telling them "this is what you must do". I want to avoid that as much as I possibly can.
Your entire job is to moderate this section to keep flowing and in a good state that people enjoy them selves here and want to play more games. You are failing in this regard.
What you neglect to consider Muugen is that precedent is important. Hosts need to be able to host games without feeling like they're going to need X, Y and Z adhered to. Common sense rules, like don't post your role PM, obviously need to be enforced, and it's up to the hosts to do that. If there was an open setup where posting your role PM wasn't a free clear/confirm, then it would probably not be modkillable. Same principle here - if I say "no trust tells", which MafiaUniverse uses, then every host will have to adhere to it, which means for anything that comes under that umbrella.

That's what I'm trying to explain, in theory, I have nothing against a hard rule. It can even be the standard, and that's fine. But ultimately, I want hosts to be the ones who make the final call on the rules they enact. I want that because I think that's the fairest way to do it.
 
This is all honesty too much drama for me. Ratchet if you want to believe I called you a cheater and questioned your integrity, then that is absolutely your choice and I support that. Obviously this has got you upset, so I apologize for that, because that was never my intention.

Now, if you want to continue, it looks like Muugen is willing to be your sparring partner; this is too much drama for me. All I can say is that I'm not sitting here just fuming and sitting on negatives comments ready to fire away at people, it ain't that deep.
 
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