Future Events Mihawk and the ultimate swordsmanship challenge

[trav]

it'd been mentioned that the pinacle of swordsmanship is to cut what you wants to cut depending on it's breath

false.
the pinnacle of swordsmanship is to either "cut" or "not cut". there is no distinction between breaths here.
Zoro mentiones the breath of Daz steel specifically, but he also applies BOAT to rocks and leaves.

we now know that the technique Zoro used to cut Daz was CoA haki. CoA haki also does not care which breath the target has.

its either cut or not. no matter what the target.
that still does not mean that a (haki) strike with the intention to cut is guaranteed to work. or else swordsman could just shear through their opponents weapons or any other form of defense at will. this clearly is not happening.

 

[Cinera]

and we know even top tiers like Big Mom begged for seastone cuffs to be removed, not to mention Shiki literally having to sacrifice his legs

This isn't a good argument as both are Devil Fruit users and were thus greatly weakened by the kairouseki.

 

[GreenEggsAHam]

They just brought 9 ships so he dont escape anywhere thats all

 

[Celestial D. Dragon]

Actually that is wrong since the flashback shows that Zoro was interested in cutting steel since he was a child

Post automatically merged: Jan 20, 2021

Well Oden was able to cut Poneglyph so this point doesn't really invalidate his argument of Kaido being the toughest.

He asked Koshiro about it, but then did nothing to pursue it until he was directly faced with an obstacle that required him to do so. He even thought he was strong enough to face Mihawk the first time around without having this ability, even though Koshiro told him that this ability was the pinnacle of Swordsmanship.

I don't think Oda really thought that scene in the flashback through, as it contradicts Zoro's actions up until that point. Even saying "Cutting Diamond would be a waste" while at the same time in the flashback he proclaims "I'll be a Swordsman who can cut anything". So which one is it? You don't care about cutting diamond cause it will be a waste, or you care about cutting Diamond, because you want to be a Swordsman who can cut anything?

 

[Den_Den_Mushi]

I don't think Oda really thought that scene in the flashback through, as it contradicts Zoro's actions up until that point. Even saying "Cutting Diamond would be a waste" while at the same time in the flashback he proclaims "I'll be a Swordsman who can cut anything". So which one is it? You don't care about cutting diamond cause it will be a waste, or you care about cutting Diamond, because you want to be a Swordsman who can cut anything?

Did you even read the Koshiro flashback? The entire point of that scene was that young Zoro didn't understand Koshiro's mindset and wanted to brute force his way through obstacles by being able to 'cut anything'. Up until he met Mihawk, Zoro carried that unhealthy bull-in-a-china-shop mentality before realising that peak swordsmanship involves subtlety and being able to protect the things he wants to.

Before chapter 10001, Kinemon had arguably superior cutting technique to Zoro's, being able to cut fire and employ Ryuou against Kaido himself. His complete and utter defeat has shown definitively that swordsmanship is not about cutting technique any more than Luffy's road to the pirate king consists of how many blocks of kairoseki he can punch through. It's incredible how so many people can't interpret Oda's message about what swordsmanship is and is not.

 

[Celestial D. Dragon]

Did you even read the Koshiro flashback? The entire point of that scene was that young Zoro didn't understand Koshiro's mindset and wanted to brute force his way through obstacles by being able to 'cut anything'. Up until he met Mihawk, Zoro carried that unhealthy bull-in-a-china-shop mentality before realising that peak swordsmanship involves subtlety and being able to protect the things he wants to.

Before chapter 10001, Kinemon had arguably superior cutting technique to Zoro's, being able to cut fire and employ Ryuou against Kaido himself. His complete and utter defeat has shown definitively that swordsmanship is not about cutting technique any more than Luffy's road to the pirate king consists of how many blocks of kairoseki he can punch through. It's incredible how so many people can't interpret Oda's message about what swordsmanship is and is not.

Ok, but I am not really sure what this has to do with my post, when I am not arguing against that?

 

[Luffy bin Dragon]

Once again, Zoro isn't the focus of the thread. What Zoro thinks of cutting diamond is literally irrelevant to what Mihawk could think of cutting diamond

That scene was meant to show Zoro development

As child he didnt really understands he thought it was to teach Zoro how to cut everything
Yet during the fight he understand that some things should be cut and others protected

That's why he says it's a waste.

The point of that Panel isnt "WoW AmAZiNg FoReShAdoWinG" it's to show zoros development
You referred to cutting Diamond as the Pinnacle of Swordsman ship but it's not you still havent you are much like Zoro you have read the story yet not learned the lesson.

Now onto Mihawk time and time again Mihawk is shown to value skill to similar extent to Koushiro

It would be a bigger disgrace if the WSS couldn't understand something called the pinnacle of swordsmanship rather than if he could not cut Diamond

 

[Den_Den_Mushi]

Ok, but I am not really sure what this has to do with my post, when I am not arguing against that?

You argued that the Koshiro flashback 'contradicts Zoro's actions up until that point' when really it does no such thing. It shows the evolution of Zoro's views on swordsmanship, from a childish 'cut errything!111!' to realising he doesn't need to prove his strength by cutting through random objects and materials. Having finally understood both Koshiro and Mihawk, Zoro proclaimed that cutting diamond would be a waste because what would cutting diamond achieve? The measure of a swordsman's strength is simply emerging victorious over the opponent in front of him. Just as Mihawk did against him, Zoro need only use as much force as he needs to win.

Once again, during the scene where Zoro receives Enma, Oda rejects the notion that 'ZOMG W0W BIG CUTTING' is the pinnacle of swordsmanship. Swordsmanship is not and never has been about cutting the thickest and toughest material. Say Zoro magically gained the ability to cut diamond right this moment. How would that help him win against Mihawk? Shiryu? King? It doesn't. Zoro will prove he is ready for Mihawk by defeating Commanders and showing that he, like Luffy, is ready to go mano-a-mano with the top tiers.

 

[GreenEggsAHam]

Mihawk wanted to cut whitebeard, he cut diamond harder than whitebeard and failed, its alright jozu is the toughest in the universe
outta BB nullifying his devil fruit

 

[Celestial D. Dragon]

You argued that the Koshiro flashback 'contradicts Zoro's actions up until that point' when really it does no such thing. It shows the evolution of Zoro's views on swordsmanship, from a childish 'cut errything!111!' to realising he doesn't need to prove his strength by cutting through random objects and materials. Having finally understood both Koshiro and Mihawk, Zoro proclaimed that cutting diamond would be a waste because what would cutting diamond achieve? The measure of a swordsman's strength is simply emerging victorious over the opponent in front of him. Just as Mihawk did against him, Zoro need only use as much force as he needs to win.

Once again, during the scene where Zoro receives Enma, Oda rejects the notion that 'ZOMG W0W BIG CUTTING' is the pinnacle of swordsmanship. Swordsmanship is not and never has been about cutting the thickest and toughest material. Say Zoro magically gained the ability to cut diamond right this moment. How would that help him win against Mihawk? Shiryu? King? It doesn't. Zoro will prove he is ready for Mihawk by defeating Commanders and showing that he, like Luffy, is ready to go mano-a-mano with the top tiers.

You're focusing on the "Protect what needs to be protected" aspect of what Koshiro says, but ignoring the "Cut what one wishes to cut" aspect." They go hand in hand.

And I don't know how you can deny that Zoro still doesn't want to be able to cut everything, when it's part of his mantra that we saw during the Pica fight.

Not to mention, that Zoro's entire focus post skip has been focused on cutting more and more things. First showcased against with his interest in learning to cut fire. Then showcased with him cutting a logia. Then showcased with him cutting a mountain, and Haki. Shiliew gaining the Clear-clear fruit, which indicates "Cutting something which one cannot see", and now up against Kaido where he has to go beyond his capabilities to cut Dragon scales.

Cutting new and various things has been Oda's main focus for Zoro this entire post timeskip.

 

[GreenEggsAHam]

"Cutting something, that cannot be cut" Kaido ez

"Cutting something which one cannot see"

 

[Den_Den_Mushi]

You're focusing on the "Protect what needs to be protected" aspect of what Koshiro says, but ignoring the "Cut what one wishes to cut" aspect." They go hand in hand.

And I don't know how you can deny that Zoro still doesn't want to be able to cut everything, when it's part of his mantra that we saw during the Pica fight.

Not to mention, that Zoro's entire focus post skip has been focused on cutting more and more things. First showcased against with his interest in learning to cut fire. Then showcased with him cutting a logia. Then showcased with him cutting a mountain, and Haki. Shiliew gaining the Clear-clear fruit, which indicates "Cutting something which one cannot see", and now up against Kaido where he has to go beyond his capabilities to cut Dragon scales.

Cutting new and various things has been Oda's main focus for Zoro this entire post timeskip.

You really are stretching for this one aren’t you

Monet/ Logias/ Kaido are all extensions of Zoro’s COA. Pray tell what technique was used to harm Kaido? Ryuou. The same internal destruction haki used by *flips back through the manga* Oden, the Scabbards and Rayleigh. Even now, Zoro has said nothing of his cutting ability, only remarking that he needs to master Enma in order to hurt Kaido properly.

‘Cutting something one cannot see’... so, a human. Who’s made of regular flesh enhanced with haki just like *checks notes* every fighter of note in the New World. Oh, how silly of me to think that Zoro needed to improve his COA like Luffy, he just needed to learn to cut... invisible humans. Who are somehow different to cut from normal humans. Got it.

Oh whatever will he learn to cut next in his journey to defeat Mihawk? I think these will be Zoro’s next steps in his mastery of swordsmans- cutting.

Cutting iron (balloon) - Big Meme
Cutting drunkard - Red Haired Shanks
Cutting gravity man - Fujitora
Cutting ghosts - Perona
Cutting emo drunkard - Mihawk

Guess the final showdown with Mihawk will be the ‘who can cut this Poneglyph’ competition, presided over by Kinemon and O-Kiku, the only two remaining ‘pure’ swordsmen in the OP verse, the rest like Kaku, Inu etc having been disqualified on the grounds that they do more than just cut things.

 

[Celestial D. Dragon]

You really are stretching for this one aren’t you

Monet/ Logias/ Kaido are all extensions of Zoro’s COA. Pray tell what technique was used to harm Kaido? Ryuou. The same internal destruction haki used by *flips back through the manga* Oden, the Scabbards and Rayleigh. Even now, Zoro has said nothing of his cutting ability, only remarking that he needs to master Enma in order to hurt Kaido properly.

‘Cutting something one cannot see’... so, a human. Who’s made of regular flesh enhanced with haki just like *checks notes* every fighter of note in the New World. Oh, how silly of me to think that Zoro needed to improve his COA like Luffy, he just needed to learn to cut... invisible humans. Who are somehow different to cut from normal humans. Got it.

Oh whatever will he learn to cut next in his journey to defeat Mihawk? I think these will be Zoro’s next steps in his mastery of swordsmans- cutting.

Cutting iron (balloon) - Big Meme
Cutting drunkard - Red Haired Shanks
Cutting gravity man - Fujitora
Cutting ghosts - Perona
Cutting emo drunkard - Mihawk

Guess the final showdown with Mihawk will be the ‘who can cut this Poneglyph’ competition, presided over by Kinemon and O-Kiku, the only two remaining ‘pure’ swordsmen in the OP verse, the rest like Kaku, Inu etc having been disqualified on the grounds that they do more than just cut things.

Where is the stretch here? It's been Oda's main focus for Zoro since post timeskip began. Instead of putting various strong people in Zoro's path, Oda has had him showcase his cutting abilities in every single arc.

And cutting "one which you cannot see" is not a feat of strength, rather than a feat that will require strong Observation Haki, which Zoro will need in his fight against Mihawk.

And now I see the issue here. You think I am arguing that this is some form of protest against Zoro and Mihawk actually fighting and it will boil down to "Who is a better cutter" scenario. Well it's not. Zoro will still have to fight against Mihawk at the end of the series to prove he is in fact worthy of the WSS title. But at the same time, Zoro will be a Swordsman who can cut anything and everything, which Oda has literally been building him up for, for decades now.

 

[Bogard]

What you guys are failing to understand is that Zoro didn't "Just" learn to cut Iron
Zoro didn't "Learn to Cut Iron", that is a lacking statement because it implies Zoro can only cut Iron
Zoro learned to cut & not cut what he wants, which includes much much more than just Iron

When Zoro remembered Breath of All Things & started feeling it, nothing in him changed, except that he can now feel the Breath of something & can freely choose what to cut

This new Knowledge completely turned Zoro from being unable to give Daz Bones even a single Scratch to one-shotting him, which means Zoro never lacked Power or Technique, he simply lacked the Ability to ignore Material Durability

And Zoro didn't just learn to cut Daz Bones, after that he can cut Normal Iron too which further proves my point

So for a Swordsman to be able to cut Diamond, he needs to have "Breath of All Things", so it doesn't matter how strong you're, you need to apply "Breath Technique" to be able to cut something, as proven when even Mihawk didn't cut Daz Bones because he was attacking Luffy, but afterwards he one-shotted him

Saying Ultimate Swordsmanship Challenge is cutting Diamond means even with "Breath of All Things", you cannot cut Diamond which makes the whole concept of "Breath of All Things "pointless, because apparently you just need to attack harder which we know doesn't work!!

Zoro's Attacks were very powerful against Daz Bones, same for Mihawk, but without "Breath", they are useless completely.
And this "Breath" doesn't make the Attack stronger, it simply makes it "Work"

This is why Zoro replied to Mr.1 like that, because it doesn't matter anymore, when Zoro learned the Breath, cutting Hard Materials isn't a Challenge anymore

For example Big Mom was compared to an Iron Balloon & not Diamond, does that mean Alabasta Zoro can hurt her?
Stop focusing on these Materials

Poneglyphs were stated to be indestructible, to explain why they are preserved, don't think much about it

We don't know the full concept of the breath of all things yet. Maybe it has levels of mastery applying comparatively to the durability of the material you wants to cut, but one thing is for sure. Alabasta Zoro couldn't cut everything just because he awakened the breath of all things

Kaido is literally the living proof this. Hell even Kuma and Pacifistas already proved this way of thinking wrong considering that even after awakening the breath of all things in Alabasta, he had issues breaching through Kuma / Pacifistas tough material

And it's even worse in Kaido's case since it happened after he trained his armament during 2years, with new world + Enma training growth, yet couldn't use the breath on Kaido to bypass his tough skin / durability

So that alone shows that cutting a durable material could still be a challenge for a swordsman, in this case being diamond who is one of the most hyped materials when it comes to durability

 

[Geo]

He asked Koshiro about it, but then did nothing to pursue it until he was directly faced with an obstacle that required him to do so. He even thought he was strong enough to face Mihawk the first time around without having this ability, even though Koshiro told him that this ability was the pinnacle of Swordsmanship.

I don't think Oda really thought that scene in the flashback through, as it contradicts Zoro's actions up until that point. Even saying "Cutting Diamond would be a waste" while at the same time in the flashback he proclaims "I'll be a Swordsman who can cut anything". So which one is it? You don't care about cutting diamond cause it will be a waste, or you care about cutting Diamond, because you want to be a Swordsman who can cut anything?

Him lacking the ability to comprehend it doesn't change the fact that he was interested in which your statement claims the contrary.
His arrogance also doesn't change that fact.

Those two statements do not contradict each other. This because the technique was to be able to cut nothing and anything. Once Zoro unlocked that, in his mind (whether he was right or wrong), he believed there was no need to go but Diamond also.

Post automatically merged: Jan 20, 2021

yet couldn't use the breath on Kaido to bypass his tough skin / durability

Bold claim when nothing shows that he tried to use it.
Just because someone has a certain ability doesn't mean they use that ability Everytime and for every second when in a fight

 

[Seraphoenix]

Yeah I can't wait to be told Zoro is stronger than Roger because he can't cut diamond.

They just brought 9 ships so he dont escape anywhere thats all

So how many ships were needed to capture him in a fight? Do they even need an admiral?

 

[Mr. Tuna Sandwich]

 

[Celestial D. Dragon]

Him lacking the ability to comprehend it doesn't change the fact that he was interested in which your statement claims the contrary.
His arrogance also doesn't change that fact.

Those two statements do not contradict each other. This because the technique was to be able to cut nothing and anything. Once Zoro unlocked that, in his mind (whether he was right or wrong), he believed there was no need to go but Diamond also.

Post automatically merged: Jan 20, 2021

Bold claim when nothing shows that he tried to use it.
Just because someone has a certain ability doesn't mean they use that ability Everytime and for every second when in a fight

And I am saying his actions as an adult, up until he met Mr. 1 don't reflect the mindset he had when he was a child. From what we've seen of him as an adult, his mindset was he needed to find and defeat Mihawk in order to become the World's Strongest. He thought his strength alone was going to allow him to becomes the World's Strongest, and Mihawk mocks Zoro for it, telling him if he was a competent Swordsman, he wouldn't need to cross blades to see that his skills with a Sword far surpasses that of Zoros.

It wasn't until Zoro fought Mr. 1 and was on the cusp of being killed that he remembered back to when he was a kid that it became clear to him that you can't just brute force your way to the top of the Swordsman World. For whatever reason, the mindset of being a Swordsman who can cut anything was lost to him at some point from when he was a child, to when he set out to fight Mihawk. He had over 10 years to try and understand what Koshiro told him as a kid, but he never pursued it.

Whatever the case, I wrong about saying he never had an interest in cutting steel, as he did when he was a child, but as an adult, it took his fight against Mr. 1 to recall back to that time and renew his resolve to want to be a Swordsman capable of cutting steel.

 

[sanjikun]

Let's remember something. Air slashes = Long range attack.

They can fully transmit POWER, but they can't fully transmit cutting ability. The cutting ability of a long range attack is reduced in order to gain more range. Otherwise Zoro wouldn't need to strike Pica physically. He'd just use an air slash.

There are always trade-offs... To gain more power, you lose more speed. To gain more speed, you lose more power. To gain both, you lose more Haki (Luffy in G4). There is a trade off to long range attacks too.

 

[Geo]

And I am saying his actions as an adult, up until he met Mr. 1 don't reflect the mindset he had when he was a child. From what we've seen of him as an adult, his mindset was he needed to find and defeat Mihawk in order to become the World's Strongest. He thought his strength alone was going to allow him to becomes the World's Strongest, and Mihawk mocks Zoro for it, telling him if he was a competent Swordsman, he wouldn't need to cross blades to see that his skills with a Sword far surpasses that of Zoros.

It wasn't until Zoro fought Mr. 1 and was on the cusp of being killed that he remembered back to when he was a kid that it became clear to him that you can't just brute force your way to the top of the Swordsman World. For whatever reason, the mindset of being a Swordsman who can cut anything was lost to him at some point from when he was a child, to when he set out to fight Mihawk. He had over 10 years to try and understand what Koshiro told him as a kid, but he never pursued it.

Whatever the case, I wrong about saying he never had an interest in cutting steel, as he did when he was a child, but as an adult, it took his fight against Mr. 1 to recall back to that time and renew his resolve to want to be a Swordsman capable of cutting steel.

Since you corrected yourself, I will address the main point here which is him never pursuing that ability. Zoro states during the fight with M1 that he had experienced such feelings multiple times before. He just didn't know how to do it voluntarily. Which he later continues training in order to achieve. So him not pursuing it as an adult is also not proved