Controversial MODERATION : Why refusing to name, call or label troubles is problematic

[Logiko]

To another person your opinions may seem detrimental and harmful, it's a matter of perspective.

No its not.

On one side you have people who are saying things that can actually hurt people
On the other side you have me that are telling to those people that their post are harmfull.

There is no equilibrium or relativity of consequences here mate.

Things I'm going against, are things that are OBJECTIVELY harmfull, those are not matter of circounstance or perspective.

The worst thing that I say to people is this :

>>

- "You are ignorant OR being ignorant" :

Do not try to equate this with people who say things like this :

>>

I don't consider a "trans women" as a woman, That's my view, I have the right to think that. So does many, many, many others. Not my fault you and the trannies can't handle it. You try lean on that word, respect, I really don't think you understand much in reality.

Your activism on an anime internet forum is inconsequential.

Maybe yes. We will see.

In this case, you define harmful whatever opinion that doesn't coincide with yours on social justice, so yeah you'd basically want mods to silence it for you.

And it goes back to what I'm saying here:

>>

> Another argument against that is when people are telling me that I label only people who disagree with me.

The problem with this logic is that it can be used in every situation, even when said person is being horrible. My personal reality is that I NEVER uses labels without a legitimate reason. There are in fact some people here that I refused to labels, even when they disagreed with me. But people saying that I'm only doing that as a counter don't really care. And this is also problematic.

Again

Problems which are not named are invisible ! The same goes for people.

If we refuse to see the toxicity of a person, we make said behavior acceptable. This is the normalization of prejudice !

WORST ! When a moderator exposes the struggle against those prejudices as problematic, it PROMOTES said behaviors !

It creates an harmfull and toxic environment and the erosion of the trust of people for the moderation !

But you did make a consensus, it's just against you. You can just try seeing things a little less black and white.

I can't. Not when it come to oppression and toxicity.

If you consider that we should accept harmfull behavior and wide spread negativity, its your choice and vision, I have mine. I'll do what I can to change that.

And if it's not possible.. well it's not possible and there will be no more reasons to fight for this forum anymore. I will let the world do to this fanbase what it does best:

 

[Brush D. Teeth]

No its not.

On one side you have people who are saying things that can actually hurt people
On the other side you have me that are telling to those people that their post are harmfull.

There is no equilibrium or relativity of consequences here mate.

Things I'm going against, are things that are OBJECTIVELY harmfull, those are not matter of circounstance or perspective.

The worst thing that I say to people is this :

>>


Do not try to equate this with people who say things like this :

>>

You are just unable to realize that others may see different things as harmful and your point of view is not absolute. That gives 0 chance of dialogue but still, whatever.

Maybe yes. We will see.



And it goes back to what I'm saying here:

>>




I can't. Not when it come to oppression and toxicity.

If you consider that we should accept harmfull behavior and wide spread negativity, its your choice and vision, I have mine. I'll do what I can to change that.

And if it's not possible.. well it's not possible and there will be no more reasons to fight for this forum anymore. I will let the world do to this fanbase what it does best:

Just remember that for now the general view is that you are the one with harmful behaviour and negativity, that's why you were banned. Personally I don't mind any namecalling but perhaps if it's not allowed here you should either follow the rules or leave.

 

[Logiko]

You are just unable to realize that others may see different things as harmful and your point of view is not absolute. That gives 0 chance of dialogue but still, whatever.

No, you don't understand.

I know that some people think that what I say to them is harmfull, for example, I know that some people don't like when I say that:

- "You are a far rightist" : Common

This doesn't mean that they are right or their words legitimate.

--

Again, I'm not here to say that people who say that Trump should be elected should be stopped, I say that if those people are using - for example - racist or transphobic rethoric, then we must stop them.

It's really simple. And its not relativistic. There is no "but I think that is not really harmfull", no. When people who are touched by said thing are systematically harmed by that and its documented, its harmfull, and we must not allow that. Period.

We can dialogue on everything else.

Just remember that for now the general view is that you are the one with harmful behaviour and negativity

Yes. I get that. And if I want, I can take two week off, just to make screenshots of ALL the toxic and harmfull things that were told on this forum against me or other and are still unmoderated.

I mean.. We can play that game if you want.



And we will see if me saying:

>>

- "You are ignorant OR being ignorant" :

or
>>

- "You are being bigoted"

... Will come even close to the degree of toxicity that I will be able to catch.



Let's see:

Visualizer : https://ibb.co/3mpHMw6

Personally I don't mind any namecalling but perhaps if it's not allowed here you should either follow the rules or leave.

And I explained here why it dangerous to prevent anyone from labelling people and why its not a sign AT ALL of toxicity, but literally the opposite in my case.

 

[Zenos7]

one side you have people who are saying things that can actually hurt people
On the other side you have me that are telling to those people that their post are harmfull.

Not like you only post to tell ppl they are being harmful.

 

[Logiko]

Not like you only post to tell ppl they are being harmful.

That's only because you don't care to see my other posts.

 

[Brush D. Teeth]

No, you don't understand.

I know that some people think that what I say to them is harmfull, for example, I know that some people don't like when I say that:



This doesn't mean that they are right or their words legitimate.

--

Again, I'm not here to say that people who say that Trump should be elected should be stopped, I say that if those people are using - for example - racist or transphobic rethoric, then we must stop them.

It's really simple. And its not relativistic. There is no "but I think that is not really harmfull", no. When people who are touched by said thing are systematically harmed by that and its documented, its harmfull, and we must not allow that. Period.

We can dialogue on everything else.



Yes. I get that. And if I want, I can take two week off, just to make screenshots of ALL the toxic and harmfull things that were told on this forum against me or other and are still unmoderated.

I mean.. We can play that game if you want.



And we will see if me saying:

>>

or
>>


... Will come even close to the degree of toxicity that I will be able to catch.



Let's see:

Visualizer : https://ibb.co/3mpHMw6


And I explained here why it dangerous to prevent anyone from labelling people and why its not a sign AT ALL of toxicity, but literally the opposite in my case.

What you mean is that you think it is harmful to people like you. Certainly some others don't find it harmful at all.

I don't think you were banned the first time you did some namecalling, so it was probably because you were making it a habit.

 

[Hanners220]

@Logiko I feel like a lot of people burned out after Wano. What are some threads that you can create to rejuvenate people’s passion for One Piece again? I am interested in seeing what sort of Norse references Oda uses in Elbaf. Also have you ever participated in the OST competitions?

There are non toxic places and people on this forum. For those toxic users, the ignore button exists for a reason.

 

[Logiko]

What you mean is that you think it is harmful to people like you. Certainly some others don't find it harmful at all.

And they are wrong.

I don't think you were banned the first time you did some namecalling, so it was probably because you were making it a habit.

I only making it a habit people people don't stop being harmfull.. of have reactionnary position.

I wouldn't have to be like that if people were acting like decent human beings.

@Logiko I feel like a lot of people burned out after Wano. What are some threads that you can create to rejuvenate people’s passion for One Piece again?

If you look at my signature, I've created a mother-thread were I would put all other threads talking about the wonder of storytelling of the Story.

Sadly I stopped it. I think I simply saw that in this environment, those thread have absolutely no impacts. They are trashed on, laughed at, and ignored for the most part.

Even if - on a technical standpoint - they are (humbly) gold mines for writers who would love to write like Oda or people who really want to have a deeper understanding of the narration of One Piece.

I could finish the mother thread in a better environment, but right now, with the current state of the forum .. I simply do not have the strenght or the will to do that.

--

But.. i'm not only as me making better thread to restructure the forum. I mean, restructuring the forum in a way that it will PUSH people to make better threads. In a positive manner, not a negative one.

OK..

I'll give you all a little glimps of what I proposed to TAC and the staff (but don't tell them that I told you):

>>
""1 - I propose the creation of this new prefix to promote pertinent threads choosed by the moderation:

This prefix will be added to the one of the thread. and will be ... (i'm not saying more for now, as it might never be implanted)

As you can see, its not a thread. Its something different. Something related to the fundamental structure of the forum.

My goal, is to create a few of those "restructuration".. on top of other idea and change.. to create a mold. Said "mold" COULD push people naturally to create better and better thread. And it will also push people (with other changes) to be less toxic and more positive.

Toxicity will be contained and the forum will gain in attractivity.

Also have you ever participated in the OST competitions

Where Ost are going against eachothers, yes I did. But people don't like my music taste lol

 

[Brush D. Teeth]

And they are wrong.

0 evidence, just your perspective. You just want people to be punished for disagreeing with you. Totally not totalitarian behaviour, eh?

 

[Logiko]

0 evidence, just your perspective. You just want people to be punished for disagreeing with you. Totally not totalitarian behaviour, eh?

>>

2. Transphobia

To really understand what is transphobia: Those two sources are the most important:

What is Transphobia : From the site TransActual (a trans activist site)
What is Transphobia : From the site Planned Parenthood (The institutions that helps LGBTQI+ people and young women in distress)

For our problem here, the important part to understand is this one (Quote from the second source):

"Transmisia/transphobia takes many forms. In general, transmisia/transphobia is any attitude, belief, behavior, or policy that:

• Stigmatizes or harms trans, nonbinary, and gender nonconforming people;
• Denies the validity of their identities;
• Sees them as less human; and/or
• Treats them as less worthy of care and respect."

HERE : Is a "Some More News" Video debunking a lot of transphobic myth and bigoted history

And a few ressources on transphobia :

- [VIDEO] - What is transphobia ? - Philosophy Tube
- [STUDY] - Transphobia's impact on Trans men
- [STUDY] - Transphobia's impact on Trans women

THIS

Is the evidence.

Again. you can not care if you want, but this is reality.

(And that's only for one subject)

Again, there is no relativism to seek here. It's NOT a question of perspective.

 

[Dr. Watson]

logiko believe me when i say i have gone through a similar thought process

but in this life, you have to pick your battles. i am telling you that your willingness to create change here falls on deaf ears because the culture prevents that. what's going to happen is your exhausting efforts will wear you thin resulting in severe burnout

so i learned it's better to pick your battles. yes OP has a very important statement toward politics and corruption. yes, it's lost on some people.
but dedicating your time to make change is more likely to yield results at communities where cultures already have cut their toxicity successfully.

you have more potential and it's absolutely wasted here. you could spend time writing essays and opening posts to communities that have a dire need for it to inspire.

i don't think that you'll inspire change here because everything is set in stone already. it's very difficult to transition to a different culture and maintain it unless all of staff have a cohesive plan to do so. most anime or general niche forums have a melting pot of staff that hold very different conclusions over what is best for the site. that also prevents any major change from occurring - multiple chefs in the kitchen step over each other all the time and it's very difficult for most to find a compromise they feel is worth their time.

i would love to see you sore in other platforms - places like tumblr that have a majority that prefers zero or limited toxicity already and have a more broad view and are in agreement with one another over what a baseline of respect is for them. that's a battle and side that'll pay off in time.

it's extremely subjective here and elsewhere. this community just isn't built for it. if you really want to make a change here, be prepared for burnout. it's not a good feeling

Post automatically merged: Aug 15, 2024

for example ral and i have a sort of game plan for one last forum. the plan is making a network of communities (hence why we wanted to affiliate here) and other OLF spinoff sites that focus primarily on community impact for mental health and support for people that need it.

that will come later.

for OLF itself, the community already has multiple subcultures (some aggressive, some chill.) interfering with that to micromanage others and force them to bow to us is just going to cause friction. it will bring the opposite effect - more anger, some disgruntled people. people are going to fight that every step of the way (nevermind that i deplore micromanaging) - - not many people will appreciate what we'd do. they'd bite back. they wouldn't care for kindness and to follow whatever rules we decided to randomly push
we tend to try to set an example of how to communicate to get points across (zero aggression, open to compromises, asking questions, community input) but i also expect not everyone will follow. that's okay.

we can't make change on OLF. but we can direct some of our energy to places of our own to assist people and spread kindness.

 

[Logiko]

logiko believe me when i say i have gone through a similar thought process

but in this life, you have to pick your battles. i am telling you that your willingness to create change here falls on deaf ears because the culture prevents that. what's going to happen is your exhausting efforts will wear you thin resulting in severe burnout

so i learned it's better to pick your battles. yes OP has a very important statement toward politics and corruption. yes, it's lost on some people.
but dedicating your time to make change is more likely to yield results at communities where cultures already have cut their toxicity reduction.

you have more potential and it's absolutely wasted here. you could spend time writing essays and opening posts to communities that have a dire need for it to inspire.

i don't think that you'll inspire change here because everything is set in stone already. it's very difficult to transition to a different culture and maintain it unless all of staff have a cohesive plan to do so. most anime or general niche forums have a melting pot of staff that hold very different conclusions over what is best for the site. that also prevents any major change from occurring - multiple chefs in the kitchen step over each other all the time and it's very difficult for most to find a compromise they feel is worth their time.

i would love to see you sore in other platforms - places like tumblr that have a majority that prefers zero or limited toxicity already and have a more broad view and are in agreement with one another over what a baseline of respect is for them. that's a battle and side that'll pay off in time.

it's extremely subjective here and elsewhere. this community just isn't built for it

It's rare to see someone give me a good and pertinent criticizism while completely respecting me. Thank you for that !

My battle here comes with a context. I come from the Carrot fanbase, I was what you could call a leading figure at least when it came to understand and analyse her story. But over time, I have felt toxicity rising harshly against Carrot fans. To a point where certain persons were afraid to share their point of view on Carrot or their love for the character out of fear of being harassed or laughed at.

So of course, you know me, I jumped in the battle head on against those people. I fought for two years against multiples groups of fans.. and one day, some Carrot fan directed me to Worstgen (that I didn't know at the time) and the Nakama thread. Here, I saw the ALL the behaviors I was facing at the time multiplied by 10, against Carrot and against her fans.

So I decided to join the forum and see if there was a way to counter said toxicity. Over the month.. I noticed that this toxicity was not really the result of the hate toward Carrot, but a bigger problem, the system and the moderation. System that was allowing such toxicity to prevail and grow.

Of course, I managed to counter the toxicity against Carrot in the Nakama thread but the problem was still here and I started to see other facettes of what I was facing, the growing of the hate toward One Piece... on a One Piece forum. So I wondered.. and I tried to find a solution.

At first, I thought that by creating a political section to make people understand more One Piece would be the solution to help them understand more the story and discuss the toxicity.. But I then faced another problem that I didn't anticipate at the time : The LARGE number of reactionnarism on the forum. Behavior which, by extention, created a large number of oppressive and harmfull rethoric.

The lack of moderation of said rethoric added to the fact that the political disucssion were hidden in a sub section kept the status co locked in.

So...

I'm thinking about a more radical approach : Directly asking the staff to modify the system.

This will be my LAST attempt to do something about the toxicity here.

So don't worry, I will not let it get it to my health. I know myself and I know when to stop. I just want to be sure that I tried everything I could. And if it's impossible, I will let the forum burn itself and I will fight on the positive side of the fanbase.

you have more potential and it's absolutely wasted here. you could spend time writing essays and opening posts to communities that have a dire need for it to inspire.

Thanks for that. If I fail here (which will really not be my failure, but the failure of people here), I think I will try to find a real positive space where I can talk, have fun, make essays about the story, and regroup to counter this negativity effectively.

 

[Zenos7]

That's only because you don't care to see my other posts.

How is this making any sense as a response to my post lmao?

 

[Logiko]

How is this making any sense as a response to my post lmao?

You Seemed to imply that I was only posting to say that people's behaviors are harmfull..

When in reality, I post about One Piece pretty much everyday. You just don't see those post.

 

[Zenos7]

You Seemed to imply that I was only posting to say that people's behaviors are harmfull..

When in reality, I post about One Piece pretty much everyday. You just don't see those post.

Yeah thats not even remotely what i said.

 

[Logiko]

Yeah thats not even remotely what i said.

That's what you said right ?

>>

Not like you only post to tell ppl they are being harmful.

But maybe I missinterpreted your sentence ?

 

[Zenos7]

But maybe I missinterpreted your sentence ?

yes you did.

 

[Logiko]

yes you did.

Then I'm sorry. What did you meant by that ?

 

[Zenos7]

You Seemed to imply that I was only posting to say that people's behaviors are harmfull..

lets say basically the opposite of this lmfao.

 

[Logiko]

lets say basically the opposite of this lmfao.

Oh.

Defense bias, plus negation. I missunderstood it. Sorry for that.