General & Others Oda Explains the Lack of One on One Fights + Future of Powerscaling Debates in One Piece
- Thread starter Akai2
- Start date
First time I read a page of One Piece was probably in like 2002 or 2003 in a sample Shounen Jump I got from a hobby store. It was Luffy fighting Don Krieg. The Naruto chapter was Sasuke vs Orochimaru in the forest lol. But I didn't start actually reading One Piece until a bit before Punk Hazard. By the time I caught up, PH was just starting so ch. 655 or so. Read weekly for a bit but stopped. Don't remember when I picked it back up but I was reading weekly during the Colosseum stuff in Dressrosa. Stopped again sometime after the Sabo reveal. Picked back up and read to right as Zou was starting and then stopped again lmao. Picked back up once again and caught up to Whole Cake Chateau going down and have been reading weekly since. I wish I started sooner. 
But it's all good now. And I'm glad I didn't read all of Dressrosa and WCI weekly.
But it's all good now. And I'm glad I didn't read all of Dressrosa and WCI weekly.
First time I read a page of One Piece was probably in like 2002 or 2003 in a sample Shounen Jump I got from a hobby store. It was Luffy fighting Don Krieg. The Naruto chapter was Sasuke vs Orochimaru in the forest lol. But I didn't start actually reading One Piece until a bit before Punk Hazard. By the time I caught up, PH was just starting so ch. 655 or so. Read weekly for a bit but stopped. Don't remember when I picked it back up but I was reading weekly during the Colosseum stuff in Dressrosa. Stopped again sometime after the Sabo reveal. Picked back up and read to right as Zou was starting and then stopped again lmao. Picked back up once again and caught up to Whole Cake Chateau going down and have been reading weekly since. I wish I started sooner.
But it's all good now. And I'm glad I didn't read all of Dressrosa and WCI weekly.
But it's all good now. And I'm glad I didn't read all of Dressrosa and WCI weekly.
Exactly, its hard to keep in mind the fact that PL is dictated by plot.
Characters like Sanji are getting turned on with the tier placements thing when despite not getting 1s, Oda goes out of his way to show that he's strong as hell. Yet the fanbase claims Oda has turned his back on him and favors Zoro more when both characters have been getting major feats and both suffer from moments where they get messed up by people weaker than them to make the plot move forward.
Mentioning the taboo two isn't mean't to spark any arguments, but they are the to characters that come to mind as mostly discussed in pl discussions lol.
Characters like Sanji are getting turned on with the tier placements thing when despite not getting 1s, Oda goes out of his way to show that he's strong as hell. Yet the fanbase claims Oda has turned his back on him and favors Zoro more when both characters have been getting major feats and both suffer from moments where they get messed up by people weaker than them to make the plot move forward.
Mentioning the taboo two isn't mean't to spark any arguments, but they are the to characters that come to mind as mostly discussed in pl discussions lol.
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Hype tools. Barely anyone understands that Oda likes the "How do I make guy A look strong without Guy B looking weak" set up to preserve some ambiguity. Oda used Sanji as a hype tool for Dolfamingo but made sure to have Mingo call Sanji strong. People still say Sanji is weak.
WB was a hype tool for the admirals
Queen was a hype tool for BM
Luffy was a hype tool for most of his big opponents
Zoro was a hype tool for Hawkins
Luffy and Zoro was a type tool for Carrot
Sanji was a hype tool for Judge
It's simple wrestling booking. Gotta keep the guy looking strong till the pay-per-view.
WB was a hype tool for the admirals
Queen was a hype tool for BM
Luffy was a hype tool for most of his big opponents
Zoro was a hype tool for Hawkins
Luffy and Zoro was a type tool for Carrot
Sanji was a hype tool for Judge
It's simple wrestling booking. Gotta keep the guy looking strong till the pay-per-view.
Too bad he isn't that good at adventure, but just serviceable. And fights are still the main nodes of interest around which everything else is structured. And there are others who have to avoid being just like Dragonball and have way, way more fights (the issue is not about being just like Dragonball at all). And avoiding to be like Dragonballs implies the fights themselves too, which should be more than obvious. And aside from all that he is just as bad at delivering anything else as at delivering fights, except at just plainly "stalling" or trying to impress with some posing aura (primarily "strength"...).
Making this whole thread just one big fat manipulation attempt.
Making this whole thread just one big fat manipulation attempt.
Lol R.I.P all power level discussions and battle junkies then.
im not surprised though, I had a feeling oda was that kind of writer from the start.
I mean ever since the luffy vs crocodile fight, we kinda got our answer of what kind of writer Oda would be for shounen battles.
For oda its more about what the fights means, its values and what's at stake. The lessons learned.
Oda is first and foremost about story, character and themes and I love and respect that. Too many shounen anime focus just on the fights and power levels that their stories are subpar.
At least now we know why fights in One Piece drag on for so long across the chapters, : oda cant write good fights continuously throughout the arc with no break.
Although oda says he isn't the best at writing fights, to me he certainly is the very best at drawing fighting choreography, I mean just look the manga pages and the perspectives and angles he uses for luffy's fight with arlong, crocodile and lucci etc. Those are absolutely amazing to look at and I feel like oda has constantly gotten better at it over time. The latest Luffy vs Katakuri fight had some of the best art and fight choreography in the One Piece manga to date.
Now the biggest question i have is if Oda dosen't think writing fights is his strong suit, then why doesn't he make more of an effort on exploration. For a manga about adventuring pirates sailing the world and discovering new islands, still to this day i feel like Skypiea was the one and only arc that conveyed a true sense of discovery, adventure and wonder. Every other major arc pretty much just follows the same old formula: go to new island, meet new people, conflict comes up, save damsel in distress, beat the big baddie, party and leave. Rinse and repeat.
What's also interesting to me was the importance of the shichibukai, i know that in previous interviews oda talked about this before, and the sources from this thread are all from 2015, 2016 and 2017. Now in 2019 Oda had the Shichibukai system abolished, and even before then its members had fallen quite a bit, i wonder if that importance of the warlords still hold the same importance today as it did before?
im not surprised though, I had a feeling oda was that kind of writer from the start.
I mean ever since the luffy vs crocodile fight, we kinda got our answer of what kind of writer Oda would be for shounen battles.
For oda its more about what the fights means, its values and what's at stake. The lessons learned.
Oda is first and foremost about story, character and themes and I love and respect that. Too many shounen anime focus just on the fights and power levels that their stories are subpar.
At least now we know why fights in One Piece drag on for so long across the chapters, : oda cant write good fights continuously throughout the arc with no break.
Although oda says he isn't the best at writing fights, to me he certainly is the very best at drawing fighting choreography, I mean just look the manga pages and the perspectives and angles he uses for luffy's fight with arlong, crocodile and lucci etc. Those are absolutely amazing to look at and I feel like oda has constantly gotten better at it over time. The latest Luffy vs Katakuri fight had some of the best art and fight choreography in the One Piece manga to date.
Now the biggest question i have is if Oda dosen't think writing fights is his strong suit, then why doesn't he make more of an effort on exploration. For a manga about adventuring pirates sailing the world and discovering new islands, still to this day i feel like Skypiea was the one and only arc that conveyed a true sense of discovery, adventure and wonder. Every other major arc pretty much just follows the same old formula: go to new island, meet new people, conflict comes up, save damsel in distress, beat the big baddie, party and leave. Rinse and repeat.
What's also interesting to me was the importance of the shichibukai, i know that in previous interviews oda talked about this before, and the sources from this thread are all from 2015, 2016 and 2017. Now in 2019 Oda had the Shichibukai system abolished, and even before then its members had fallen quite a bit, i wonder if that importance of the warlords still hold the same importance today as it did before?
I don't know if it's wrong for me to bump this old thread, but, considering the recent events, and also looking at some of the comments here, I think this thread REALLY is a jewel that needs to be looked upon once again.
I wasn't around during this time, so I took the time to look through the comments here.
Comparing what some of you had to say here, and how Onigashima raid is currently, what do you think about it?
I find it quite poetic the "Kishimoto tried to make Naruto as different as possible from One Piece", and the amount of "One piece has turned into Naruto" comments that popped up during this raid.
If memory serves, at the time this thread was created, we were on the first chapters of Oden's flashback.
About the fights...well, we all saw what happened during the Flying 6 fights, the Jack treatment, etc. Damn....really put things into perspective.
I wasn't around during this time, so I took the time to look through the comments here.
Comparing what some of you had to say here, and how Onigashima raid is currently, what do you think about it?
I find it quite poetic the "Kishimoto tried to make Naruto as different as possible from One Piece", and the amount of "One piece has turned into Naruto" comments that popped up during this raid.
If memory serves, at the time this thread was created, we were on the first chapters of Oden's flashback.
About the fights...well, we all saw what happened during the Flying 6 fights, the Jack treatment, etc. Damn....really put things into perspective.
Part 1 - Eiichiro Oda Deliberately De-emphasizes The Combat Elements
“Dragon Ball made such a deep impression on everyone; I think fans could still remember it five years after it ended. And it was certainly one of my favorites, too. I would never have stood a chance against it. So I had to come up with something different. That’s why I really tried to emphasize the adventure element for readers, rather than the fight scenes.”
-Oda Eiichiro interview with Naruto’s Creator Masashi Kishimoto, 2015
-Oda Eiichiro One Piece Magazine Volume 1, 2017 (Sandman's translation)
The same sentiment was echoed by one of the editors that Oda insisted on less fights to differentiate from other mainstream manga. This is how I always viewed combat in One Piece; a complimentary aspect to the overall series rather than the main focus.
The fights are about tying up the arc’s themes (destroying Nami’s room, ringing the bell, stopping Doffy’s control, bonding with Katakuri over familial drama, etc...), intensity and emotional drama rather than power stats and ability/strategy exposition.
They’re not video game vs. style combat without story elements interfering. For example, Nami and Law helped Luffy defeat Cracker and Doffy. Katakuri grew to respect Luffy as the person that can free his siblings from Mama’s emotional oppression so he handicapped himself/was happy he escaped. Story and characterization will always prevent the powerscalers’ dream of character A vs character B at full strength going all out for multiple chapters to see who’s outright stronger.
Heck, Luffy’s strongest ability is to attract people to help him. So he might not be individually the strongest combat wise but he can compete with stronger opponents by making allies.
Part 2 - Challenges of Creating a Weekly Manga and One Piece's Giant Cast/Plot
The inhumane demands of creating a weekly manga are well-documented. If you have 3 days each to create the story and art while sleeping 3 hours a day, you have to pick and choose which areas you’ll focus on. It’s always weird seeing fans claim that “series x doesn’t have a complex fighting system like series y” or “series x doesn’t have expansive world building like series y”. It’s infeasible to cover all aspects in one weekly comic.
To choose to create a story with an ever-expanding lore of islands and characters, will lead to narrative focus being on political tension/plot lines, drama, humor, adventure, and existing character personalities/interaction/backstories rather than one on one fights. While also introducing new characters, islands, mysteries and plot lines to maintain the “ever expanding adventure” feel.
The complex plot then becomes more about untangling this web of political/power structures to achieve the ultimate goal of reaching one piece and less about the simple crew adventures. Juggling all these characters and plot lines to coherently reach the conclusion lessened the attention to combat details and lighthearted Strawhat adventures. That’s why the later arcs are different in tone compared to earlier arcs (that’s a longer discussion for another thread
).
Oda said the reason One Piece became so lengthy is because he introduced the Shichibukai and he (Jokingly) regrets it. This is basically an admission that he realized he created a monstrous world full of mysteries and plot threads that are begging to be resolved. And that his perfectionist self will need a long time to do justice by each thread.
Part 3 - Future of Power Level Debates
I’m not naive to think that powerscaling discussions aren’t an integral of any battle shonen. I don’t look down on powerscalers or anything like that. Everyone that has a passion for any aspect of One Piece, regardless of how significant it is, is on my team. Greg said that Oda himself is happy about fans speculation and discussion about power levels. The fans should and will continue to have fun with powerscaling discussions.
Shout out to @Admiral Lee Hung , @Jo_Ndule , @Topi Jerami , @Light D Lamperouge and all the passionate powerscalers here :cheers:
I just see some people taking them way too seriously in a series that’s not designed to decisively satisfy those discussions. After that, they extrapolate the feelings about characters’ lack/abundance of feats to bash/praise that character from a story perspective (Big Mom and Sanji in WCI are an example of that. Maybe another long thread about this in the future
).
So I’m just hoping that those cats aren’t setting themselves up for disappointment, because when One Piece ends, we most likely still won’t have definitive answers to their (EOS strawhats, YCs, Yonko vs Admiral, etc…) power level debates.
What’s required to resolve this complex world will demand every last bit of Oda’s remaining mangaka HP.
“I need the courage to chip away at the ideas I come up with. It’s a race against time between my remaining lifespan and the end of the series (laughs)”.
-Eiichiro Oda to Fuji TV, 2016
That told me he’s decided to stick with this style until he’s able to draw the ending.
And I can’t say I blame him. He spoke about health concerns in the past as well as wanting to spend time with his daughters. There’s a human element that some people ignore. Hopefully the pressure of finishing up such a giant series doesn’t lead to a Berserk/Bastard/Hunter x Hunter/Nana situation.
“Dragon Ball made such a deep impression on everyone; I think fans could still remember it five years after it ended. And it was certainly one of my favorites, too. I would never have stood a chance against it. So I had to come up with something different. That’s why I really tried to emphasize the adventure element for readers, rather than the fight scenes.”
-Oda Eiichiro One Piece Magazine Volume 1, 2017 (Sandman's translation)
The same sentiment was echoed by one of the editors that Oda insisted on less fights to differentiate from other mainstream manga. This is how I always viewed combat in One Piece; a complimentary aspect to the overall series rather than the main focus.
The fights are about tying up the arc’s themes (destroying Nami’s room, ringing the bell, stopping Doffy’s control, bonding with Katakuri over familial drama, etc...), intensity and emotional drama rather than power stats and ability/strategy exposition.
They’re not video game vs. style combat without story elements interfering. For example, Nami and Law helped Luffy defeat Cracker and Doffy. Katakuri grew to respect Luffy as the person that can free his siblings from Mama’s emotional oppression so he handicapped himself/was happy he escaped. Story and characterization will always prevent the powerscalers’ dream of character A vs character B at full strength going all out for multiple chapters to see who’s outright stronger.
Heck, Luffy’s strongest ability is to attract people to help him. So he might not be individually the strongest combat wise but he can compete with stronger opponents by making allies.
Part 2 - Challenges of Creating a Weekly Manga and One Piece's Giant Cast/Plot
The inhumane demands of creating a weekly manga are well-documented. If you have 3 days each to create the story and art while sleeping 3 hours a day, you have to pick and choose which areas you’ll focus on. It’s always weird seeing fans claim that “series x doesn’t have a complex fighting system like series y” or “series x doesn’t have expansive world building like series y”. It’s infeasible to cover all aspects in one weekly comic.
To choose to create a story with an ever-expanding lore of islands and characters, will lead to narrative focus being on political tension/plot lines, drama, humor, adventure, and existing character personalities/interaction/backstories rather than one on one fights. While also introducing new characters, islands, mysteries and plot lines to maintain the “ever expanding adventure” feel.
The complex plot then becomes more about untangling this web of political/power structures to achieve the ultimate goal of reaching one piece and less about the simple crew adventures. Juggling all these characters and plot lines to coherently reach the conclusion lessened the attention to combat details and lighthearted Strawhat adventures. That’s why the later arcs are different in tone compared to earlier arcs (that’s a longer discussion for another thread
).Oda said the reason One Piece became so lengthy is because he introduced the Shichibukai and he (Jokingly) regrets it. This is basically an admission that he realized he created a monstrous world full of mysteries and plot threads that are begging to be resolved. And that his perfectionist self will need a long time to do justice by each thread.
Part 3 - Future of Power Level Debates
I’m not naive to think that powerscaling discussions aren’t an integral of any battle shonen. I don’t look down on powerscalers or anything like that. Everyone that has a passion for any aspect of One Piece, regardless of how significant it is, is on my team. Greg said that Oda himself is happy about fans speculation and discussion about power levels. The fans should and will continue to have fun with powerscaling discussions.
Shout out to @Admiral Lee Hung , @Jo_Ndule , @Topi Jerami , @Light D Lamperouge and all the passionate powerscalers here :cheers:
I just see some people taking them way too seriously in a series that’s not designed to decisively satisfy those discussions. After that, they extrapolate the feelings about characters’ lack/abundance of feats to bash/praise that character from a story perspective (Big Mom and Sanji in WCI are an example of that. Maybe another long thread about this in the future
).So I’m just hoping that those cats aren’t setting themselves up for disappointment, because when One Piece ends, we most likely still won’t have definitive answers to their (EOS strawhats, YCs, Yonko vs Admiral, etc…) power level debates.
What’s required to resolve this complex world will demand every last bit of Oda’s remaining mangaka HP.
“I need the courage to chip away at the ideas I come up with. It’s a race against time between my remaining lifespan and the end of the series (laughs)”.
-Eiichiro Oda to Fuji TV, 2016
That told me he’s decided to stick with this style until he’s able to draw the ending.
And I can’t say I blame him. He spoke about health concerns in the past as well as wanting to spend time with his daughters. There’s a human element that some people ignore. Hopefully the pressure of finishing up such a giant series doesn’t lead to a Berserk/Bastard/Hunter x Hunter/Nana situation.
That is:
- if only he's not too busy hyping up everyone to the extreme, in order to please every character fandom.
- if only he's not too busy creating a trillion of new pointless characters which only serve to become fodders, gags and shenanigans for every chapters
---
Imo thats it. Get rid of pointless focus in empty hype and fodder characters, and i think he can create a powerlevel and battle system which is at least half as amazing as HxH.
I genuinely feel it's the contrary.
Oda actually jams so much into one chapter, that plots have only 1-2 pages of development, so they feel like they don't move forward, or that barely anything happens at all.
That's what I criticized at the time Roof Piece happened.
That moment had entire multiple chapters dedicated to nothing but the Roof fight itself.
1001-1002 full roof piece. 1003? 90% roof piece.
That fight had time to breath. Had time to develop. Had time to showcase everyone doing something.
Meanwhile we had a claustrophobic shit show going on downstairs, that had the same amount of chapters as Roof PIece had, but with 10x more things needing attention.
And we still have that.
Fucking orochi coming back ten thousand times. Not only 1 "time bomb" being Onigashima dropping on the Flower Capital, but ANOTHER "time bomb" with the fire yokai trying to reach the arsenal.
Then we have CP0 in the middle of the chaos.
We STILL have 3 major fights in M3 vs Kaido+Calamities, a trash filler Raizo vs Fukurokujo, another filler fights in Apoo+Drake vs CP0 now, and the longest filler fight of all: BM vs Kid and Law.
We also need to deal with not just the fire yokai, but the fire spreading throughout the castle as well.
We also need the development from Momo finally stopping Onigashima.
We also need the Hyori development.
We also are gonna see more of Yamato, more of the remaining Numbers, probably.|
It just doesn't fucking end.
Oda actually jams so much into one chapter, that plots have only 1-2 pages of development, so they feel like they don't move forward, or that barely anything happens at all.
That's what I criticized at the time Roof Piece happened.
That moment had entire multiple chapters dedicated to nothing but the Roof fight itself.
1001-1002 full roof piece. 1003? 90% roof piece.
That fight had time to breath. Had time to develop. Had time to showcase everyone doing something.
Meanwhile we had a claustrophobic shit show going on downstairs, that had the same amount of chapters as Roof PIece had, but with 10x more things needing attention.
And we still have that.
Fucking orochi coming back ten thousand times. Not only 1 "time bomb" being Onigashima dropping on the Flower Capital, but ANOTHER "time bomb" with the fire yokai trying to reach the arsenal.
Then we have CP0 in the middle of the chaos.
We STILL have 3 major fights in M3 vs Kaido+Calamities, a trash filler Raizo vs Fukurokujo, another filler fights in Apoo+Drake vs CP0 now, and the longest filler fight of all: BM vs Kid and Law.
We also need to deal with not just the fire yokai, but the fire spreading throughout the castle as well.
We also need the development from Momo finally stopping Onigashima.
We also need the Hyori development.
We also are gonna see more of Yamato, more of the remaining Numbers, probably.|
It just doesn't fucking end.
I can see your clearly doesn't understand power scalling and oda's bullshits about fighting scenes and ending the series.
First of all, power scalling is not about having a perfect tier list of who is strong and who is weak. Is about understanding the current power of each character based on feats and portrayals. When we talk about power scale is to understand how far Katakuri is from Kaido since he needed 1000 blows to knock out Luffy while Kaido needed one.
I never read DBZ manga. Only started OP manga at Oden's FB basically. So considering anime, I guess OP sometimes has even better fight scenes that DBZ. One Piece is more relatable to real life than DBZ so I guess it make sense for us to enjoy more OP fighting style.
Anyway, having a good panel doesn't mean you need to spend 2 chapters on that fight. This is just a poor excuse.
Oda really wants to end this series? Because I'm pretty sure he won't make on those 5 years he said a time ago. Look at Wano, how much bullshit he added without any value for the plot.
First of all, power scalling is not about having a perfect tier list of who is strong and who is weak. Is about understanding the current power of each character based on feats and portrayals. When we talk about power scale is to understand how far Katakuri is from Kaido since he needed 1000 blows to knock out Luffy while Kaido needed one.
I never read DBZ manga. Only started OP manga at Oden's FB basically. So considering anime, I guess OP sometimes has even better fight scenes that DBZ. One Piece is more relatable to real life than DBZ so I guess it make sense for us to enjoy more OP fighting style.
Anyway, having a good panel doesn't mean you need to spend 2 chapters on that fight. This is just a poor excuse.
Oda really wants to end this series? Because I'm pretty sure he won't make on those 5 years he said a time ago. Look at Wano, how much bullshit he added without any value for the plot.