Character Discussion Oda tries so hard to make the celestial dragons look evil. Its not good writing.

[TheSufferingGob]

.


Nobody is saying the celestial dragons aren't evil. People are pointing out the repetitive nature of showing they are.[/QUOTE]

If ur arguing that then you can believe that and I won't mind even if I don't agree ,but those aren't the unhinged ones that are making me lose faith. Repetitive is fine but arguing it's unrealistic and that real life genocide having a moral component to it is when I give up on people.
[automerge]1700503132[/automerge]
It also feels like people think they are way more uncommon then they actually are

 

[OneHater]

You are naïve at Best if you think you can't make People accept genocide

I never said that. I agree that you can convince people to accept genocide but that requires a VERY strong argument and the CD do not have such an argument.

… approximate 90 percent of the American people agreed in the use of an Atomic Bomb on two major civilian cities. If you don’t think people can be convinced that genocide is okay you really need to look back on history and see how horrible people can be when they’re convinced they’re above others.

This wasn't genocide but it's an okay example. The rationale was "we're at war and we SHOULD use this nuke to end the war and protect ourselves from dying." (self defense argument) The CD do not have this type of argument and that's why their actions look comical.

The best example is slave camels. During American slavery, slave masters rode horses rather slaves because riding slaves was ineffective. American slavery was caused because of greed, plantations, not just pure cruelty. If you understand real history then the CD aren't representative of reality.

 

[TheSufferingGob]

I never said that. I agree that you can convince people to accept genocide but that requires a VERY strong argument and the CD do not have such an argument.

This wasn't genocide but it's an okay example. The rationale was "we're at war and we SHOULD use this nuke to end the war and protect ourselves from dying." The CD do not have this type of argument and that's why their actions look comical.

The best example is slave camels. During American slavery, slave masters rode horses rather slaves because riding slaves was ineffective. American slavery was caused because of greed, plantations, not just pure cruelty. If you understand real history then the CD aren't representative of reality.

They don't need the argument, because in an authoritarian government where the people don't matter the decision isn't up to the people. That's why the morality doesn't matter because those only stop the ones where people care.

 

[lee33]

Repetitive.. how?
We have been shown them in two lights, ruthlessly snobby elitist nazi and in a few cases aware of their humanity and fighting for equality (the guy at the reverie and fishman).
They barely show up in the manga.

Repetitive means the action of repeating something that has already been said or written. We knew since pretime skip that CDs had slaves, raped, killed, etc. hence why it is repetitive. I seriously don't understand why you guys are having such a hard time understanding that.

 

[Gaimon The Pirate]

I never said that. I agree that you can convince people to accept genocide but that requires a VERY strong argument and the CD do not have such an argument.

This wasn't genocide but it's an okay example. The rationale was "we're at war and we SHOULD use this nuke to end the war and protect ourselves from dying." (self defense argument) The CD do not have this type of argument and that's why their actions look comical.

The best example is slave camels. During American slavery, slave masters rode horses rather slaves because riding slaves was ineffective. American slavery was caused because of greed, plantations, not just pure cruelty. If you understand real history then the CD aren't representative of reality.

Do you need reasons to kill the ants in your garden?
All across history slaves have been used as labour and subject to all kinds of violence, including sexual violence of course.
In ancient rome, instead of killing you directly for certain crimes, they'd put you in a bag with a cock, a cat and a snake and chuck you in a river.
Crassus crucified a slave a mile during Spartacus rebellion.
People have spent years chained in their filth in boats working as engine.
But no, riding slaves is too much for you, that's non believable in a world were humans have super-human strength.
[automerge]1700503908[/automerge]

Repetitive means the action of repeating something that has already been said or written. We knew since pretime skip that CDs had slaves, raped, killed, etc. hence why it is repetitive. I seriously don't understand why you guys are having such a hard time understanding that.

Every time CD have been shown we learnt more about them.
In reverie, that even nowadays they have good people among them trying to upset the status quo.
In God Valley, who the Holy Knights are and how CD can leave Maryjeoys in mass for certain reasons.
Complaining that the ruling nazis are shown to be ruling nazis and saying it is repetitive, it's like saying that it's repetitive to see BB do acts of piracy, or that is repetitive to see Goku fight or it's repetitive to see Akatsuki have countless meetings about Jinchuuriki.
You guys are as always cherry picking and being retarded, I don't know if it's on purpose or is it legitimately low intelligence.

 

[OneHater]

They don't need the argument, because in an authoritarian government where the people don't matter the decision isn't up to the people. That's why the morality doesn't matter because those only stop the ones where people care.

Your understanding of society is oversimplified. Even an authoritarian ruler must must get the consent of his generals and bureaucrats otherwise they'll be coup d'état. Why was Stalin tolerated? Because the ruling class believed in Communism and so they believed the ends justified the means.

In One Piece this would mean getting the Admirals and all the Marines onboard with slavery and genocide but Oda hasn't shown why these people support the CD. What is in it for them? Why don't do they do a good old fashioned coup? The deception of the power structure of One Piece isn't realistic. The actions of the Celestial Dragons are not realistic. Everything is a cartoon caricature of reality and Oda is starting to be crushed under his bad worldbuilding like Kishimoto in Shippuden.

 

[Logiko]

I never said that. I agree that you can convince people to accept genocide but that requires a VERY strong argument and the CD do not have such an argument.

No it doesn't. You DON'T need a strong argument to convince people of taking out others, you only need to demonize them enough, that's all it takes. And in this case you don't need that. The majority of the population is unaware of the deeds of the CD and those who are are under their control. As for the CD themselves, there "monstruosity" is due to their status and location. When you are born in a place where :

- Slavery is normal
- Genocide is normal
- Your localization affirms your status
- Where you have all the rights

Then the crimes of the celestial dragon are completely logical. Nothing is caricatural here, that's just how any human being would act in their position. This is why understanding the problem of systemic issue is important because the problem is not the celestial dragon, its the power in place and the systemics affirmations that Celestial Dragon gets for their actions.

Then the only things that Oda is pushing are characters like Saint Charlos that are straight up personification of that systemic issue and the fact that those in power don't even care to hide their intent.

One Piece uses a lot of exageration, but the Celestial Dragon deeds are not one of them. Really. As a species in certains condition, we can become really, really bad, to a point where even Nazis pale in comparison.

But we also can be really, really good. And Oda is portraying both those extrems in One Piece

 

[Gaimon The Pirate]

Your understanding of society is oversimplified. Even an authoritarian ruler must must get the consent of his generals and bureaucrats otherwise they'll be coup d'état. Why was Stalin tolerated? Because the ruling class believed in Communism and so they believed the ends justified the means.

In One Piece this would mean getting the Admirals and all the Marines onboard with slavery and genocide but Oda hasn't shown why these people support the CD. What is in it for them? Why don't do they do a good old fashioned coup? The deception of the power structure of One Piece isn't realistic. The actions of the Celestial Dragons are not realistic. Everything is a cartoon caricature of reality and Oda is starting to be crushed under his bad worldbuilding like Kishimoto in Shippuden.

In a world where piracy is rampant, an entire part of the world is ruled by pirates, where pirates rule country and have so much power that the governement itself had to pay them, you wonder why marines exist?
We are not shown, but it's clear that if you hate pirates, as any normal person should since most people don't know CD even exist, you support the marines and would want to be part of them, since they are the only ones protecting you from pirates.
CD are no different from Roman ruling class or Aztecs, that would slaughter countless innocents because "the gods" wanted it.
Marines exists because CD needs them, not vice versa.
They are the God's people, and they see themselves as such. We have had events not different from this happen countless time across history, crusades and jihad's done by order of god's chosen or killing inferiors because they are.

What's in it for the Marines? It's either they bite the bullet of serving the CD and mantaining the peace for the rest of the world, aka 99.99% of the people, or the entire world becomes an anarchy ruled by pirates like Big Mom or Kaido. What would you choose?

 

[Sir Yasheen]

I never said that. I agree that you can convince people to accept genocide but that requires a VERY strong argument and the CD do not have such an argument.

This wasn't genocide but it's an okay example. The rationale was "we're at war and we SHOULD use this nuke to end the war and protect ourselves from dying." (self defense argument) The CD do not have this type of argument and that's why their actions look comical.

The best example is slave camels. During American slavery, slave masters rode horses rather slaves because riding slaves was ineffective. American slavery was caused because of greed, plantations, not just pure cruelty. If you understand real history then the CD aren't representative of reality.

When you purposefully kill millions of people because of who they are, that is literally an act of genocide. And no, the rationale people used was that the Japanese people were evil and killing them was a necessity. That’s literally what the CDs did to justify Ohara.

The CD are one hundred percent representative of human nature and history. Hell look up the Stanford Prison experiment where after 5 days the experiment had to get cancelled because of the torture and inhumane treatment that happened from the test subjects. Now consider if those people were told for 800 years that they are gods, everyone in the world owes their lives to you, and the greatest power in the world is willing to protect you as you take anything you want. The CDs are incredibly fucking realistic like god damn.

 

[OneHater]

In a world where piracy is rampant, an entire part of the world is ruled by pirates, where pirates rule country and have so much power that the governement itself had to pay them, you wonder why marines exist?

Here is the problem. Someone else already posted this too. When we were originally introduced to One Piece, what you're saying made sense but as the show has progressed, the biggest thread to people has become the WG, maybe starting with allowing Airlong to operate to now 3 yr genocides. Additionally, the pirates are not ALL evil and living under Yonko rule is probably preferable to WG: obviously Shanks and Whitebeard but probably even Kaido and Big Mama. I'd rather give her some lifeforce or work as Kaido's slave than possibly be randomly killed every 3 years. Based on what we know now, it would seem like overthrowing the WG would be everyone's common rule and this is probably Oda's end-game setup but it also ruins the worldbuilding by creating plot holes and it's very cartoony and unrealistic.

 

[Gaimon The Pirate]

Here is the problem. Someone else already posted this but I'm too lazy to research the thread. When we were originally introduced to One Piece, what you're saying made sense but as the show has progressed, the biggest thread to people has become the WG, maybe starting with allowing Airlong to operate to now 3 yr genocides. Additionally, the pirates are not ALL evil and living under Yonko rule is probably preferable to WG: obviously Shanks and Blackbeard but probably even Kaido and Big Mama. I'd rather give her some lifeforce or work as Kaido's slave than possibly be randomly killed every 3 years. Based on what we know now, it would seem like overthrowing the WG would be everyone's common rule and this is probably Oda's end-game setup but it destroy all the worldbuilding by creating plot holes and it's very cartoony and unrealistic.

You are missing critical pieces.
Based on what we know now, this is a silly argument.

What we know is different from what the average Marine and person knows. First of all, most people are not aware of CD and their doing.
God's valley is a secret event, for example.
This is notorious, multiple time it's been shown the WG modifying reality to suit their narrative, I don't know why you're choosing to ignore it.

From the perspective of a random citizen, they live in harmony and peace if it wasn't for Pirates. Looks at Gosa, look at most East Blue village. The only danger for them are pirates.
And Marine fight pirates.

You are confounding the perspective of the reader with the perspective of a random person living in Alabasta (almost destroyed by pirates) or Drum (destroyed by pirates).

 

[Rednick]

I dont understand the point of this thread. Even in our world some people are just born evil for no particular reason. The CD are people who think they are gods so in their perpesctive they are not evil. Its just their birth given right to do whatever they want. And not all of them are evil, there are some exceptions.

 

[Steven]

I dont understand the point of this thread. Even in our world some people are just born evil for no particular reason. The CD are people who think they are gods so in their perpesctive they are not evil. Its just their birth given right to do whatever they want. And not all of them are evil, there are some exceptions.

This

CD´s are seen as Gods of the OP World

As if a "God" cares what the normal folk wants lol.

If you kill a fly,are you evil as well?Its the same shit

 

[Rivaille]

Imaging depicting a group as the limitâtes scumbags and have the boss of the day scumbag being defeat in a looney tunes way. Imagine how anticlimactic it’s gonna be

 

[lee33]

Every time CD have been shown we learnt more about them.
In reverie, that even nowadays they have good people among them trying to upset the status quo.

Correction, we knew since Dressrosa there were good people among them with Doffy's parents. But this is not the point of the thread. The thread is about the CDs repetitive evil subplot Oda keeps recycling.

In God Valley, who the Holy Knights are and how CD can leave Maryjeoys in mass for certain reasons.

This has nothing to do with this thread.

Complaining that the ruling nazis are shown to be ruling nazis and saying it is repetitive, it's like saying that it's repetitive to see BB do acts of piracy, or that is repetitive to see Goku fight or it's repetitive to see Akatsuki have countless meetings about Jinchuuriki.

Not a good analogy at all. Let us take Chimera arc in HxH as an example. When the ants was first introduced they were pillaging, killing and eating humans for food. And then after that what happened? We see them grow, gain personality, develop, etc. Togashi didn't just repetitively write them pillaging villages. But with Oda he keeps recycling the same shit and doesn't like to progress the story.

You guys are as always cherry picking and being retarded, I don't know if it's on purpose or is it legitimately low intelligence.

Every argument someone makes about One Piece is cherry picking to yall.

 

[Cherry Hilk]

People here are missing the point. It’s not the fact that they are evil (of course they have to be) but how ridiculously caricatural Oda’s portrayal of them is and how this is continuously shoven down our throats. That’s what is starting to get annoying. It doesn’t help that even the Gorosei are starting to fall under the « super evil » area, when in early One Piece they were shown to be more like pragmatic (although ruthless) politicians rather than literal demons. Sadly a lot of nuances got lost along the way. I guess that this is because otherwise the most naive and gullible readers might‘ve got confused about who the good guys are. This says a lot about the opinion Oda has of his readers intelligence.

 

[Gaimon The Pirate]

Correction, we knew since Dressrosa there were good people among them with Doffy's parents. But this is not the point of the thread. The thread is about the CDs repetitive evil subplot Oda keeps recycling.

It is not repetitive if we learn something new in the few panels we see them.
Doffy's left Maryjeoys 30+ years ago, so no, we only saw at the reverie that there are still CD that want to fight the status quo TODAY.

This has nothing to do with this thread.

It has to do, because we are shown NEW things. If the things shown are NEW they cannot be repetitive by definition.

Not a good analogy at all. Let us take Chimera arc in HxH as an example. When the ants was first introduced they were pillaging, killing and eating humans for food. And then after that what happened? We see them grow, gain personality, develop, etc. Togashi didn't just repetitively write them pillaging villages. But with Oda he keeps recycling the same shit and doesn't like to progress the story.

Not a good definition at all?
You are comparing full fledged characters like Meruem and the Chimera ants to CD, who have had all together what, 50 panels?
They appears probably 10 tops chapter in a 1090 chapter manga, and you compare with Chimera ants who were dedicated 100 chapters.
LOL.

Akatsuki is a secret organisation, and yet, every time we see them not fighting, they are just being shady and being silhouette in a cave. HOW REPETITIVE.
Every time we see sayans they are fighting or training. HOW REPETITIVE.
Every time we see Shohoku, they are playing basket. HOW REPETITIVE.

 

[Fn Lucci]

People here are missing the point. It’s not the fact that they are evil (of course they have to be) but how ridiculously caricatural Oda’s portrayal of them is and how this is continuously shoven down our throats. That’s what is starting to get annoying. It doesn’t help that even the Gorosei are starting to fall under the « super evil » area, when in early One Piece they were shown to be more like pragmatic (although ruthless) politicians rather than literal demons. Sadly a lot of nuances got lost along the way. I guess that this is because otherwise the most naive and gullible readers might‘ve got confused about who the good guys are. This says a lot about the opinion Oda has of his readers intelligence.

Ridiculous caricature as a portrayal

Hi welcome to manga

 

[Juanpiz]

It is not repetitive if we learn something new in the few panels we see them.
Doffy's left Maryjeoys 30+ years ago, so no, we only saw at the reverie that there are still CD that want to fight the status quo TODAY.


It has to do, because we are shown NEW things. If the things shown are NEW they cannot be repetitive by definition.

Not a good definition at all?
You are comparing full fledged characters like Meruem and the Chimera ants to CD, who have had all together what, 50 panels?
They appears probably 10 tops chapter in a 1090 chapter manga, and you compare with Chimera ants who were dedicated 100 chapters.
LOL.

Akatsuki is a secret organisation, and yet, every time we see them not fighting, they are just being shady and being silhouette in a cave. HOW REPETITIVE.
Every time we see sayans they are fighting or training. HOW REPETITIVE.
Every time we see Shohoku, they are playing basket. HOW REPETITIVE.

Everytime we see aizen he is arrogant and powerful

 

[Weeman]

They are over-exaggeratedly evil but that's just how OP has always been written tbh

We have some saint-like impossibly altruistic peole like Kuma, Rosinante or Otohime to contrast with the absolute worst evil that one could imagine from humans.

And honestly it's not hard to imagine any regular human ending up like the CD's if they were given that amount of power, lack of consequences and being raised to believe they are literal gods.