Spoiler One Piece Chapter 1072 Spoilers Discussion

Which character is stronger ?

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Blother Fertitta

Blother Fertitta

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#10,224
#10,224
NotTommy

NotTommy

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#10,227
#10,227
Arthur Fleck said:
If he is a baby during God Valley then it might be no. He would have to be as young as Shanks for that to happen.
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Funny enough, Weevil's actually younger than Shanks by a bit. Would him being a Whitbeard clone work? Perhaps that could explain Whitebeard not acknowledging or knowing of him but then Bakkin shows up after his death to claim some money. Plus if Bakkin was both a former MADS member (assuming the person on the cover page is her, not the clone) and a former Rocks member then it could fit together quite nicely unless there's something I'm forgetting. To be honest, she wouldn't even need to be the one that's a member of MADS, just understanding the situation would be enough.
 
HeroesNZ

HeroesNZ

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#10,231
#10,231
Bogard said:
You didn't get my point. I was not doing a panel-to-panel comparison. It's pointless because it always depends on the circumstance. What I was doing was show the difference in portrayal between both battles overall, and I'd explain in the quote below why I believe Luffy had better portrayal / showing against a stronger opponent



This is how the Luffy vs Lucci clash ended
Lucci was one hit away from the KO against a laughing / trolling Luffy. So not sure what you meant by better lol. If you're referring to the G5 drawback, it's far less restrictive than G4. He becomes an old man for a single panel, then right away he is back to normal form as if nothing happens, so the "drawback" is negligeable
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You're making an invalid comparison. Luffy vs Lucci had two callbacks because the fight was completed. The first callback: We find out that Luffy needs G5 to match Awakened Lucci in a clash of fists. Second callback: Luffy wins.

Zoro vs Kaku, first callback: Zoro can now overpower Awakened Kaku relatively casually. Second callback: oops, there is none, because the fight was incomplete.

Point being, Luffy's first callback with Lucci was objectively worse than Zoro's first callback with Kaku and look how Luffy vs Lucci turned out. Lucci got folded. So the natural assumption is that Kaku would've also ended up getting folded seeing as Zoro started his fight even better than Luffy did and clearly these two fights are paralleling their EL versions.
And in terms of output comparison, Asura is a single attack while Luffy has multiple high ends G5 moves. KOH is just an amplified version of ACOC, so not sure why you seperated them lol. And in terms of ACOC, Luffy has a superior level to what Zoro possess. Same goes for ACOA, so in terms of who was holding more back, it's Luffy, yet despite that, Oda ended the Luffy vs Lucci conflict by showing that Lucci was an opponent that even a trolling Luffy(sleeping in some panels) could KO if he wanted to
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Zoro has multiple high-end moves too. In fact, every high-end move Zoro possesses has 3 levels, e.g - He has Asura, KOH Asura and KOH 9 Dragon Style Asura. KOH needs to be separated because it's stronger than Zoro just using ACoC.

Luffy possesses a higher degree of mastery of CoA but his CoA is not stronger than Zoro's - this is indicated by Flying Dragon Blaze receiving superior portrayal to every pre-1010 G4 attack outside Kong Organ, and FDB was not even a high-end attack for rooftop Zoro. So I disagree, Luffy holding back ACoA is less significant to Zoro holding back high-release CoA.

That leaves Luffy holding back ACoC which is significant, but Zoro was also holding back ACoC/KOH. Luffy is stronger than Zoro so he has more to hold back, but Luffy objectively used more of his arsenal and was pushed to a higher level of difficulty than Zoro was vs Kaku.

To make this clear, let's flip the question - what more could Zoro have held back? His CoA, and that's it. Because he didn't use a named attack, he didn't use ACoC, he didn't use KOH, he didn't use high-release CoA - did I mention that he literally used no named attacks. He didn't even try to cut Kaku, he just overpowered his nose as a callback to EL.

What more could Luffy have held back? He could've held back using one of his strongest Gears, he could've held back his CoA. Luffy used more against a Lucci who used less of his arsenal than Kaku did. Lucci used zero named attacks on Luffy and only attacked like twice - the rest of the time he was aiming for Sentomaru. Meanwhile Kaku directly attacks Zoro with a named attack and gets overpowered.
In the Zoro vs Kaku's case however, Kaku's named attack briefly pushed Zoro back(compare this to Luffy daydreaming mid-Lucci attack ) and while ultimately overpowered, he still came out of his clash unscathed, with Oda having to use a plot device(Stussy) to take him out.




How the Luffy vs Lucci clash ended
How Kaku ended after his clash with Zoro
Oda using Stussy as a plot device to stop the battle before both they could go all out

This was the Enies Lobby callback

Yet what dominated Zoro afterwards was this


To the point, it forced him to unconsciously use Asura for the first time

As you stated, Zoro handled his bigan far better than in Enies Lobby where he had to use Ni Gorilla, but Kaku is a yontoryu user, taking advantage of his giraffe power to make full use of his yontoryu fighting style(blades and body). Something we didn't even see him use here, let alone the awakened version of amanedachi(though to be fair, we didn't see the awakened version of Lucci's rokugan as well)

Yet even before the clash could go any further, Oda used a plot device(Stussy) to take Kaku out

So overall, am I saying that Zoro couldn't beat him ? No, I don't even believe they are on the same level, but what I'm saying is that Oda left it much more inconclusive than the battle between Luffy and Kaku's superior(Lucci)
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You admit Lucci didn't use Rokougan which makes up for Kaku not using Yontoryu, but you don't mention that Lucci didn't use anything against Luffy. Not one single named attack. Lucci held back much more of his arsenal vs Luffy than Kaku held back against Zoro. Kaku looks fresh after his clash with Zoro because Zoro didn't try to cut him, he tried to overpower his nose and succeeded. Ultimately, Zoro looks much, much better after his first callback with Kaku than Luffy did after his first callback with Lucci. You're comparing a completed fight to an incomplete clash.

Stussy was not a plot device used to knock out Kaku because Zoro is unable, it's more so Oda made it abundantly clear that Zoro is superior to Kaku and now he can introduce Stussy as the next plot point.

Finally, my take home from all this are two things:
1) Luffy and Zoro could utterly curbstomp Lucci and Kaku if they wanted.
2) Oda sees ACoC-less Zoro as comparable to ACoC-less G5 Luffy.
 
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