Speculations Perception vs Reality in One Piece and why its important

#61
I was hoping this was about display of attacks rather than hearsay.
its what is causing the larger issues in power scaling imo.
decent post anyways.

Katakuri burries Luffy 2 stories deep into the ground with his final attack and Luffy slightly love taps Katakuri in the stomache.
Luffy gets back up, Katakuri eventually falls.

:kaidowhat:
 
#62
Katakuri the “undefeated, 1 billion berry, never fall on his back, invincible” man who lost to a guy who had trouble with Hody and Ceaser, needed help with Doffy and Cracker, and had completely inferior stats
I see, according to you characters remains static and won't grow in experience and strength...shit logic...the same Luffy had trouble with Mr. 3 long back....so this kind of logic is moot....besides Luffy didn't have any trouble with Hody on ground...
Post automatically merged:

this is sacred for people to trashtalk Luffy or to pacify their burning stomach...as simple as that...having luck is not the same as having plot armor...
 
#64
Yeah, but couldn't that be said for any of the known WS characters outside of Whitebeard, who is the only person confirmed to have fought someone that garnered him being worthy of his title?



As opposed to your implications that Moria was Top Tier back then? I'll take my assessment over yours any day of the week.

This might come as a huge shock to you, but there was a time where even Whitebeard followed someone else, and wasn't yet the World's Strongest Man. You know Shanks right? He didn't become Yonko material until 6 years ago. Blackbeard? Guess what! Just became strong enough to become a Yonko within the last two years. Crazy how people get stronger over the years isn't it? Not to mention, it's not like Sengoku himself didn't say that Big Mom and Kaido from back then are nothing like they are now. But tomatoes tomahtos right?
Sky God Kaido who not Roger, Rayleigh, Whitebeard or Big Mom have scarred = YC1

Please stop it. You're embarrassing yourself. Like I explained to you, base Moriah might not be Top Tier, but with 1,000 shadows, he clearly was in his prime. He had island splitting power. Moriah is like Hawkins, the more people at his disposable, the stronger he is.

In all of this you're forgetting 2 basic things:

(1) Age. Shanks and Blackbeard are 39 and 40 respectively. Oden was 39, and Kaido around the same age. You are saying Kaido was "YC1" when he was Shanks' and Blackbeards age.

(2) Territory. You can't be a Yonko without territory. Shanks didn't become a Yonko 6 years ago because of "strength". You need years to amass your own territory. It took Blackbeard 1 year, simply because Whitebeard wasn't there to defend his.
 

Elder Lee Hung

Conqueror of the Stars
#65
There was no "false perception" of Katakuri though. The statements made about him are from accounts of people who witnessed his accomplishments first hand. Those kind of statements hold much more weight than the statements of those made in hearsay. There is no biasness coming from his siblings here, because they have front row seats to the accomplishments. Brulee proved this as she witnessed the entire fight between Luffy and Katakuri. She could have easily went and told everyone that the fight ended in a stalemate, in which Luffy used that opportunity to escape, or even claim that Katakuri won. But she did not do that. She reported exactly what happened, and that is the fact that Katakuri had finally suffered his first defeat.

Things like what Big News Morgan reported is irrelevant to the hype that Katakuri received. It doesn't matter what is reported to the rest of the world. All that matters is what we the readers witnessed first hand, and the accounts of the characters who witnessed these accomplishments first hand.

Look at Gol D. Roger. The information provided surrounding his capture was completely fabricated by the World Government. They reported to the World that they caught him, and in the eyes of the people that makes the Marines look infinitely more powerful. The hype of the Marines because of the World Governments reports raises dramatically to the people of the World, while to the readers who know what really happened, it diminishes. So I am not entirely sure how you reach the conclusion that hearsay is much better hype than first hand accounts, as stories created by word of mouth tend to become more and more embellish the father the rumors spread.
I agree 100% with this post. Katakuri’s accomplishments are factual and verifiable. The hype surrounding his strength is perception (invincible, never touching the ground, etc.) but his victory record is a reality from which his fake hype is derived. His fake hype makes 0 sense if his victory record wasn’t insane to warrant such fake hype in the first place.

Mihawk on the other hand, it’s never been stated in the canon that he’s beaten any swordsmen at all, and the only source that mentions him beating other swordsman is unreliable and subject to contradicting the canon as we’ve seen numerous times before. The one time in the manga that Mihawk had an opportunity to demonstrate his title of WSS, and he utterly failed to make Vista drop a single bead of sweat.

The perception of Mihawk is that he’s the WSS, but the reality is that Vista is a worthy opponent for him. It is far more likely that the reality is that people like Shanks and Fujitora are stronger than Mihawk is.
 
#66
Sky God Kaido who not Roger, Rayleigh, Whitebeard or Big Mom have scarred = YC1

Please stop it. You're embarrassing yourself. Like I explained to you, base Moriah might not be Top Tier, but with 1,000 shadows, he clearly was in his prime. He had island splitting power. Moriah is like Hawkins, the more people at his disposable, the stronger he is.

In all of this you're forgetting 2 basic things:

(1) Age. Shanks and Blackbeard are 39 and 40 respectively. Oden was 39, and Kaido around the same age. You are saying Kaido was "YC1" when he was Shanks' and Blackbeards age.

(2) Territory. You can't be a Yonko without territory. Shanks didn't become a Yonko 6 years ago because of "strength". You need years to amass your own territory. It took Blackbeard 1 year, simply because Whitebeard wasn't there to defend his.
You do realize that Kaido was only an apprentice when he was in the Rock's pirates right? That would have made him only 12-14 years old at the time, and made him 30-32, 20 years ago.

You also must have missed the part where the Vivre Cards stated that Shanks and Kaido are from the same pirating Generation, which is the Generation created after Roger was killed. Meaning they both would have been rookies around the exact same time, which would have been around the time Oden and Kaido fought. But yeah, keep telling yourself rookie Kaido who was rivals with Moria was top tier.
 
#67
One of the most important thing that a lot of people fail to do when it comes to power scaling several One Piece character is fail to look at things such as titles, hype statements, rumors with a certain level of Nuance.

The most obvious example of it is Katakuri who although not many people seem to use the hype he received from his siblings as an argument for his superiority over other first commanders of emperors, I have seem some people like @Admiral Lee Hung use that as a legitimate argument. But perception vs reality is even much more so than Kaido, is evident with Katakuri
Perception of Katakuri's siblings of Katakuri vs Reality of Katakuri
Perception vs Reality was very much evident in whole cake Island with Katakuri's siblings buying the false perception that Katakuri has created with his made up perfectionism and a victory record that is supposed to be legendary rest of the world doesn't care about. A record so irrelevant to the unbiased people of the world that they don't recognize him as king of 1v1 fights, instead they recognize Kaido as one. So much so that Big News Morgan didn't even mention Katakuri's undefeated record while giving Luffy his 1.5 Billion belly bounty, I mean he didn't even specifically name drop Katakuri, instead he was just one of the two sweet commanders that Luffy defeated. Obviously if Big News Morgans bought false perception of Katakuri that his siblings did, his defeat would be one of the main focuses of his new article.
So the false perception isn't necessarily that the record exist, instead the weight that the record holds and the legend of it. While his siblings that buy the false perception that Katakuri has created would consider the record the greatest thing that has ever exist, to the rest of the unbiased world, the record doesn't mean much. Even to someone who was trying to glorify straw hat Luffy's accomplishment and make him look as great as he possible can to annoy Big Mom, the worth of Katakuri's title wasn't enough to give him a name drop in the article.
Another important thing to consider is that it is very hard to believe he has faced likes of King and Marco when Oda made a big deal of the fact that he hit his back to the floor for the very first time when he faced Luffy. I am not willing to take a leap of faith that Katakuri has defeated likes of Marco, Katakuri or even Vista in a low difficulty effort without his back touching the floor even once. So it was just an empty hype statement from people who admire him. Maybe he has undefeated record but undefeated record hardly means anything when you have only faced scrubs. Zoro was also an undefeated and invincible swordsman in East Blue until Mihawk had to show him that he is nothing more than a mere big fish in a tiny sea or rather big frog in a tiny well.
It is one of the most integral nuance of Katakuri's character that he has created false perception of perfectionism around him that only his siblings believe in. It is very important because one of the most important developments Katakuri received during his fight with Luffy was him attempting to escape that perception and express his true self freely after he took off that mask.

The World's Perception of Kaido vs Reality of Kaido
Another example of it is Kaido and all the hype surrounding him. I have seen many people find weird ways to try to dismiss Kaido's hype and all the statements narrator of the story made regarding him during his introduction. I have heard people say things like "Well his title doesn't apply to human beings as humans are not Creatures" which again the idea of humans not being creatures depending on your definition of creature maybe true, the Japanese word Seibutsu directly translates to "Living Organism" which certainly includes all the humans. Another even more ridiculous argument that I have heard is that "Kaido is only physically strongest and not necessarily strongest overall fighter" which is weird because narrator simply said "In 1v1 battle, always bet on Kaido" before giving him that distinction of strongest creature in the world.

But one logical argument that I hardly hear is regarding the perception of him vs reality.
The perception to the world is that Kaido has won his battle with Kozuki Oden, reality is that he won due to taking unfair advantage. He defeated Oden by having an old lady transform into Momonuske, Oden's son which was enough for Oden to loose his focus and look away from Kaido momentarily and Kaido took advantage of that and smacked Oden on the head with his club and incapacitated him

Although the readers saw Kaido defeat him through underhanded tactics, the history would say Oden lost his battle to Kaido. Its very possible that people of Wano neglected the fact that Kaido won his battle due to underhanded tactic of "using a hostage" to his advantage. I don't know if the rest of the world is aware of Kozuki Oden's defeat to Kaido, although its very possible because it is implied Oden had a bounty and it was likely a very high bounty. But that is not necessarily very important to the topic at hand, instead it gives room to an interesting idea. Perhaps Kaido has won majority of his fights through cheating, dirty tactics, hostages etc but world just looked at his victory record and ran with the idea that Kaido is invincible in 1v1 battle.

I think it is by design as I don't think it is a very smart move from an author's perspective to have someone who represents peak of strength in One Piece show his full power in the middle of the story and then get defeated. It also clashes with Whitebeard and his reputation as the King of his era after Gol D Roger's death all the while Kaido has his title. I mean technically Kaido could have been stronger than Whitebeard this entire time but the lore of One Piece favors Whitebeard over Kaido.


World's Perception of Mihawk vs Reality of Mihawk
Now Mihawk seems to be the kind of guy unlike Kaido where the perception might actually be reality just because of the way Mihawk has been presented in the story, his inner conflict, his personality and his role in the story.

Mihawk has not been presented as the the kind of a guy to cheat or take short cuts of any kind instead he has been presented as polar opposite of that to the point where he wouldn't even face a man who is at a disadvantage due to loss of an arm. His approach to Shanks is that he knows Shanks is simply not strong enough to give him a competitive fight due to having only one arm and if the fight happened he would simply win each time. He can take an unfair victory over Shanks due to Shanks being at a disadvantage but that goes directly against his personality of being against taking unfair advantage because he failed to defeat Shanks at the peak of his power when he had both his arms. Its antithesis of how Kaido views his battles where he has no qualms of taking unfair advantage in the midst of battle and smacking someone in the head from behind.

It is even more evident when he didn't show much interest in Vista and "postponing" their duel simply to never try to find him again. In a sense he treated Vista same way he treated Don Krieg because he is aware Vista isn't someone who can give him a proper fight.
It is important as Mihawk is so desperate to get thrill of battle that he would go to ends of hell to find Vista and finish his fight with him if he truly viewed him as someone who can give him a competitive fight. It is same man who traveled from Grand Line to East Blue on a coffin boat just because one ship slipped by him after he cut down 49 ships.

Obviously Mihawk's title is also perception based, the world perceives Mihawk as the strongest swordsman in the world because of feats that Mihawk has pulled, because of people that Mihawk has defeated. Obviously its not a judges contested title where a few strong swordsman might not have recognized. Its simple just like Kaido, world is recognizing Mihawk as the strongest in the world, be it through his big swordsmanship feats, his duel with Shanks or simply the undefeated victory record he has.

The difference with him and Kaido is that he isn't using underhanded tactics to win his battles as that is simply not his personality. He is more than happy to find somebody who is strong enough to defeat him and take his title from him, as a matter of fact he is desperately looking for someone to defeat him.

Another point that Mihawk has going for him is that he has been shown to be end of be all when it comes to swordsmanship due to the black blade he has, him being the ultimate destination of only main character whose character arc revolves around swordsmanship and become stronger in the way of swordsmanship.

Maybe it is the reason why Oda chose to gave Mihwak and Whitebeard introduction boxes with "World's Strongest" in it while with Kaido he simply called it a rumor.


Anyways in conclusion perception and reality can be the same like in case of Mihawk and can be different like in the case of Katakuri. With Kaido its up in the air because we don't know the path he took after his fight with Kozuki Oden.

Your Kaido stuff doesn't even make sense. The world barley even knows about Wano and Oden did lose to Kaido. Oden was trying to catch Kaido slipping and drunk and Kaido caught Oden slipping unintentionally, but the facts are the beasts pirates beat the red scabbards that day. That literally a fact.

Bro what are you talking about. The world barley knows about the Pden situation cause of news Nd Oda already said he lost 7 times. Which means the 1 v 1 thing is talking about currently. Not that he forever had that 1 v 1 title. For example lets say Mike tyson lost a few boxing match from age 14-17, but from 18-29 he undefeated. They would say in a 1 v 1 bet on Mike.

Also the narrative you speak about underhanded stuff makes no sense since he killed the old lady and told them to release BM
 
#68
I agree 100% with this post. Katakuri’s accomplishments are factual and verifiable. The hype surrounding his strength is perception (invincible, never touching the ground, etc.) but his victory record is a reality from which his fake hype is derived. His fake hype makes 0 sense if his victory record wasn’t insane to warrant such fake hype in the first place.

Mihawk on the other hand, it’s never been stated in the canon that he’s beaten any swordsmen at all, and the only source that mentions him beating other swordsman is unreliable and subject to contradicting the canon as we’ve seen numerous times before. The one time in the manga that Mihawk had an opportunity to demonstrate his title of WSS, and he utterly failed to make Vista drop a single bead of sweat.

The perception of Mihawk is that he’s the WSS, but the reality is that Vista is a worthy opponent for him. It is far more likely that the reality is that people like Shanks and Fujitora are stronger than Mihawk is.
Are you being sarcastic about Shanks is in reality is likely to be stronger than Mihawk? Because i seem to remember that you think Shanks as a fraud that is weaker than Mihawk, a snitch etc.
 
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