Current Events PSA: Zoro getting CoC was always the plan
- Thread starter Den_Den_Mushi
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Something to remember is that Conquerors haki is not something you train. Zoro isn't going to spend arcs trying to master it. It is something that will naturally become stronger as he grows stronger.
This is why Zoro was granted a haki draining sword, so that it would unleash his Conquerors without him realizing it. This would explain how young Oden may have been able to tame Enma at such a young age. He simply released all that he had at the time on it, which would've included Conquerors. He had the will to overcome the sword's. Zoro did as well, however....
Zoro did not try that, but avoided unleashing the sword most of the time throughout Onigashima, and as soon as he began doubting himself, it started overtaking his haki, his will. He needed to cast all that baggage away give all of himself for the sword to yield, just like Oden.
Lastly, Zoro is our first sample of someone awakening to their Conquerors after already learning the other two types. Other cases usually have the individual awakening their conqueror's first, then working their way up to the others, and understanding them. And as mentioned earlier, Conqueror's haki is tied to the strength of the user. The stronger they are, the stronger it will be, and Zoro was plenty powerful and adept at haki prior to 1033. It may seem unorthodox, but it works when you look at the context.
This is why Zoro was granted a haki draining sword, so that it would unleash his Conquerors without him realizing it. This would explain how young Oden may have been able to tame Enma at such a young age. He simply released all that he had at the time on it, which would've included Conquerors. He had the will to overcome the sword's. Zoro did as well, however....
Zoro did not try that, but avoided unleashing the sword most of the time throughout Onigashima, and as soon as he began doubting himself, it started overtaking his haki, his will. He needed to cast all that baggage away give all of himself for the sword to yield, just like Oden.
Lastly, Zoro is our first sample of someone awakening to their Conquerors after already learning the other two types. Other cases usually have the individual awakening their conqueror's first, then working their way up to the others, and understanding them. And as mentioned earlier, Conqueror's haki is tied to the strength of the user. The stronger they are, the stronger it will be, and Zoro was plenty powerful and adept at haki prior to 1033. It may seem unorthodox, but it works when you look at the context.
Wrong. Very wrong lol. For every example of a genetically gifted/societally privileged person attaining greatness that you can point to in real life, I can point to a dozen who attained greatness despite being born into obscurity. We could spend time nitpicking individual examples of irl great people reinforcing our own individual opinions, but this would both be pointless while also missing the greater point:
That Zoro’s story is simply less memorable as a result of Oda making him a descendant of Ryuma. And don’t lie to me and say “it’s still not confirmed!” ffs, every Zoro fan knows Zoro is Ryuma’s descendant.
Asking me to be impressed that Zoro, descendant of Ryuma, becomes the World’s Greatest Swordsman, is like asking me to be impressed that Lebron James Jr. makes it to the NBA lol. Like who cares, everyone knows that dude can make the NBA if he wants to.
It’s much more impressive and memorable when you hear about kids who made it to the NBA in spite of being born into families who have no history of professional athletics, because a lot of those times, those kids attained greatness through their own hard work and dedication, and not because their dad played in the NBA and made them with NBA level sperm lol.
This is Oda’s fictional story, he is in complete control of Zoro’s character arc and growth. However, Oda wrote a story where Zoro was handpicked for greatness by random chance just from the fact that he came from Ryuma.
I won’t give a single fuck when Lebron James Jr. makes it to the NBA, and now it’s impossible to give a single fuck when Zoro attains his dream, unless you’re an idiot.
I’ll give you that, Zoro’s escalation in power has been so pathetically ill-defined, full of asspulls, and forgettable, that the fact that he is related to Ryuma serves as a shield defending him from greater criticism lol.
You can point out how no one gives af about attaining Zoro’s goal accept for Zoro, how Zoro’s power growth has often been vague, and how Zoro seems to attain plot-gifted Powerups only when it seems certain that he is destined to lose,
And then you can shield Zoro from all criticism by saying “well what did you expect? He’s related to Ryuma!” Like Oda doesn’t need to tell a good story for Zoro because Lebron James Jr will make it to the NBA, there’s no need to question it or think deeply about it because Zoro was destined for this shit no matter what lol.
Zoro’s journey is simply pathetic, and the chiefest criticism of his character being “who cares if Zoro attains his goal because it is literally in his DNA”, somehow also functions to prevent the need for Oda to tell a good story in the first place. Because who cares, Zoro was destined for this shit lol.
Horribly wrong, Rock Lee trained to achieve his goal with guidance from Guy. Theoretically any adept ninja can train to do the same thing if they wanted to. And besides, Rock Lee isn’t exactly the strongest Naruto character lol.
Zoro has CoC because who cares, he’s related to Ryuma lol.
I never commented on this so not sure why you straw-manned me here?
I have a problem with characters being gifted shit by destiny that they have not earned. Like I said, I wouldn’t read the story of Lebron James Jr making it to the NBA because who gives a shit, it’s in his DNA. I don’t have a problem with all Straw Hats being geniuses if we see them working towards their goals and they achieve their goals through planned power progression rather than Oda just saying “fuck it, I don’t know how to make Franky’s progression as a shipwright interesting, so I’ll just make Franky the son of the shipwright King and hopefully Franky fans won’t notice that Franky’s progress towards his dream has been generic and pathetically written.”
Coincidentally, all of the Straw Hats have had shit character arcs and power progression so I can just blanket criticize them all.
That Zoro’s story is simply less memorable as a result of Oda making him a descendant of Ryuma. And don’t lie to me and say “it’s still not confirmed!” ffs, every Zoro fan knows Zoro is Ryuma’s descendant.
Asking me to be impressed that Zoro, descendant of Ryuma, becomes the World’s Greatest Swordsman, is like asking me to be impressed that Lebron James Jr. makes it to the NBA lol. Like who cares, everyone knows that dude can make the NBA if he wants to.
It’s much more impressive and memorable when you hear about kids who made it to the NBA in spite of being born into families who have no history of professional athletics, because a lot of those times, those kids attained greatness through their own hard work and dedication, and not because their dad played in the NBA and made them with NBA level sperm lol.
This is Oda’s fictional story, he is in complete control of Zoro’s character arc and growth. However, Oda wrote a story where Zoro was handpicked for greatness by random chance just from the fact that he came from Ryuma.
I won’t give a single fuck when Lebron James Jr. makes it to the NBA, and now it’s impossible to give a single fuck when Zoro attains his dream, unless you’re an idiot.
I’ll give you that, Zoro’s escalation in power has been so pathetically ill-defined, full of asspulls, and forgettable, that the fact that he is related to Ryuma serves as a shield defending him from greater criticism lol.
You can point out how no one gives af about attaining Zoro’s goal accept for Zoro, how Zoro’s power growth has often been vague, and how Zoro seems to attain plot-gifted Powerups only when it seems certain that he is destined to lose,
And then you can shield Zoro from all criticism by saying “well what did you expect? He’s related to Ryuma!” Like Oda doesn’t need to tell a good story for Zoro because Lebron James Jr will make it to the NBA, there’s no need to question it or think deeply about it because Zoro was destined for this shit no matter what lol.
Zoro’s journey is simply pathetic, and the chiefest criticism of his character being “who cares if Zoro attains his goal because it is literally in his DNA”, somehow also functions to prevent the need for Oda to tell a good story in the first place. Because who cares, Zoro was destined for this shit lol.
Horribly wrong, Rock Lee trained to achieve his goal with guidance from Guy. Theoretically any adept ninja can train to do the same thing if they wanted to. And besides, Rock Lee isn’t exactly the strongest Naruto character lol.
Zoro has CoC because who cares, he’s related to Ryuma lol.
I never commented on this so not sure why you straw-manned me here?
I have a problem with characters being gifted shit by destiny that they have not earned. Like I said, I wouldn’t read the story of Lebron James Jr making it to the NBA because who gives a shit, it’s in his DNA. I don’t have a problem with all Straw Hats being geniuses if we see them working towards their goals and they achieve their goals through planned power progression rather than Oda just saying “fuck it, I don’t know how to make Franky’s progression as a shipwright interesting, so I’ll just make Franky the son of the shipwright King and hopefully Franky fans won’t notice that Franky’s progress towards his dream has been generic and pathetically written.”
Coincidentally, all of the Straw Hats have had shit character arcs and power progression so I can just blanket criticize them all.
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This is what I've been saying the whole time. You don't need any kind of lineage to be a Conqueror or to be a haki genius. Hancock, Shanks, Linlin etc are not related to anyone particularly powerful. Also, there's no confirmation that Zoro is the descendant of Ryuma, so there's no point projecting that issue into this thread. Also, so what if he's related to Ryuma? Luffy, son of Dragon got his arse whopped by Bluejam, he ain't a natural born destroyer or anything like that.
To continue the sports analogy, so what? Professional sportspeople train, of course they do, but they're also physically and athletically gifted. Most people can never even dream about growing to the height of the average NBA player. Most pro gymnasts need a specific physique for better aerodynamics. If you trained 24/7 your entire childhood, you still probably wouldn't make it to the Olympics. Life ain't fair.
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Rock Lee can open his chakra gates. That's not something 99% of ninja can do, even with training.
Of all the characters you chose to criticise for not earning their powerups, Zoro is the worst example lmao. Man trains harder than anyone on the crew, constantly puts his life on the line and fights with handicaps, which is how you're supposed to get stronger in the series.
Good observation. Most CoC users are kids or rookies when they get it (Doflamingo, Yamato, Ace, Luffy etc) so they haven't actually learned proper training methods or haki control, they just lash out and use it involuntarily. Since Zoro already knew both COO and COA, it makes sense that he can wield CoC not long after learning he has it.
This is what I've been saying the whole time. You don't need any kind of lineage to be a Conqueror or to be a haki genius. Hancock, Shanks, Linlin etc are not related to anyone particularly powerful. Also, there's no confirmation that Zoro is the descendant of Ryuma, so there's no point projecting that issue into this thread. Also, so what if he's related to Ryuma? Luffy, son of Dragon got his arse whopped by Bluejam, he ain't a natural born destroyer or anything like that.
To continue the sports analogy, so what? Professional sportspeople train, of course they do, but they're also physically and athletically gifted. Most people can never even dream about growing to the height of the average NBA player. Most pro gymnasts need a specific physique for better aerodynamics. If you trained 24/7 your entire childhood, you still probably wouldn't make it to the Olympics. Life ain't fair.
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Rock Lee can open his chakra gates. That's not something 99% of ninja can do, even with training.
Of all the characters you chose to criticise for not earning their powerups, Zoro is the worst example lmao. Man trains harder than anyone on the crew, constantly puts his life on the line and fights with handicaps, which is how you're supposed to get stronger in the series.
Good observation. Most CoC users are kids or rookies when they get it (Doflamingo, Yamato, Ace, Luffy etc) so they haven't actually learned proper training methods or haki control, they just lash out and use it involuntarily. Since Zoro already knew both COO and COA, it makes sense that he can wield CoC not long after learning he has it.
1. We do not know who Hancock and Shanks are related to or descendants of, so they are bad examples.
2. Linlin is an even worse example, as she is someone who literally has not trained a single day in her miserable life. She was simply born a top tier lol.
But you’re missing the point of the greater criticism:
The greater criticism, is that why should anyone care if Zoro, descendant of Ryuma who was born great, attains his dream? Why should anyone care if Lebron James Jr makes it to the NBA? You are confusing my criticism of “there is no longer a reason to care about any of Zoro’s struggles or triumphs because greatness was simply baked into his DNA before he was even born,” with something else you made up because Luffy lost to Bluejam when he was like 5 years old? Idek what the point of bringing up that was lol, but the greater criticism is that Zoro’s dream and progression towards it (as shit as it has been) has now been made meaningless and uninteresting by the fact that he is essentially Lebron James Jr.
Even if Zoro is not related to Ryuma (he absolutely is), Oda choosing to make CoC (an ability you’re born with and cannot unlock through any other means) the vehicle through which Zoro reaches top tier status, effectively communicates the same point. Why should anyone give a shit if Zoro becomes the strongest? He was born with CoC, this shit was his destiny. Again, Lebron James Jr.
You are so intent to distract from this point that I think you actually expected me to defend the myriad of shit writing choices that Oda has made about Luffy? Sorry to disappoint on that one lol.
Again, missing the greater point: It is much more entertaining to read stories about characters attaining their ambition against the odds, than it is to read a story about Lebron James Jr making it to the NBA. Oda was in full control of Zoro and making his story interesting but wrote himself into a corner where the only thing that could possibly explain Zoro’s nonsensical power progression (making it something he was born with) is also what ruins his entire character lol.
Rock Lee trained harder than 99% of ninja. It’s the entire reason people fell in love with him to begin with, he was doing thousands of exercises a day to achieve a greatness that everyone told him he would never attain.
Kishimoto fucked that one up too as he is a geneticist like Oda is and believes only those born to attain greatness will ever attain it lol.
Zoro achieves just as many ass pull Powerups as every other Shonen fanservice no character out there. Zoro unlocked Asura (CoC) without even knowing what Asura even was and with no explanation to the reader as to where this ability came from. Without Asura he’d have actually lost a fight, but Oda’s tiny penis prevents him from writing a story where any of his characters could possibly lose so he pulled an auto-win card out of Zoro’s ass with literally no explanation and Zoro fans ate that shit up lol.
The Breath of All Things was also not explained whatsoever, even Zoro didn’t know how he did that shit after Alabasta and trained in futility to access the ability at will lol. Probably because Oda realized that Zoro would be too powerful if he were frequently utilizing an ability that Oda only gave him so he wouldn’t lose one specific fight, and so Oda took it away from him (again with no explanation).
Oda may draw Zoro lifting big weights, but his power progression remains just as nonsensical and unexplained as every other shit Shonen fanservice character that Zoro fans think he is better than lol.
2. Linlin is an even worse example, as she is someone who literally has not trained a single day in her miserable life. She was simply born a top tier lol.
But you’re missing the point of the greater criticism:
The greater criticism, is that why should anyone care if Zoro, descendant of Ryuma who was born great, attains his dream? Why should anyone care if Lebron James Jr makes it to the NBA? You are confusing my criticism of “there is no longer a reason to care about any of Zoro’s struggles or triumphs because greatness was simply baked into his DNA before he was even born,” with something else you made up because Luffy lost to Bluejam when he was like 5 years old? Idek what the point of bringing up that was lol, but the greater criticism is that Zoro’s dream and progression towards it (as shit as it has been) has now been made meaningless and uninteresting by the fact that he is essentially Lebron James Jr.
Even if Zoro is not related to Ryuma (he absolutely is), Oda choosing to make CoC (an ability you’re born with and cannot unlock through any other means) the vehicle through which Zoro reaches top tier status, effectively communicates the same point. Why should anyone give a shit if Zoro becomes the strongest? He was born with CoC, this shit was his destiny. Again, Lebron James Jr.
You are so intent to distract from this point that I think you actually expected me to defend the myriad of shit writing choices that Oda has made about Luffy? Sorry to disappoint on that one lol.
Again, missing the greater point: It is much more entertaining to read stories about characters attaining their ambition against the odds, than it is to read a story about Lebron James Jr making it to the NBA. Oda was in full control of Zoro and making his story interesting but wrote himself into a corner where the only thing that could possibly explain Zoro’s nonsensical power progression (making it something he was born with) is also what ruins his entire character lol.
Rock Lee trained harder than 99% of ninja. It’s the entire reason people fell in love with him to begin with, he was doing thousands of exercises a day to achieve a greatness that everyone told him he would never attain.
Kishimoto fucked that one up too as he is a geneticist like Oda is and believes only those born to attain greatness will ever attain it lol.
Zoro achieves just as many ass pull Powerups as every other Shonen fanservice no character out there. Zoro unlocked Asura (CoC) without even knowing what Asura even was and with no explanation to the reader as to where this ability came from. Without Asura he’d have actually lost a fight, but Oda’s tiny penis prevents him from writing a story where any of his characters could possibly lose so he pulled an auto-win card out of Zoro’s ass with literally no explanation and Zoro fans ate that shit up lol.
The Breath of All Things was also not explained whatsoever, even Zoro didn’t know how he did that shit after Alabasta and trained in futility to access the ability at will lol. Probably because Oda realized that Zoro would be too powerful if he were frequently utilizing an ability that Oda only gave him so he wouldn’t lose one specific fight, and so Oda took it away from him (again with no explanation).
Oda may draw Zoro lifting big weights, but his power progression remains just as nonsensical and unexplained as every other shit Shonen fanservice character that Zoro fans think he is better than lol.
What if a descendent of Lebron not only make it to the NBA but (1) wins 6 back-to-back rings like MJ (2) after several hundred years, when (3) most people don't remember Lebron anymore? Would that impress you?
You are underselling Zoro's greatness. Even in this latest chapter, he unlocked the AdCoC only when he decided to risk his life. Thats what makes Zoro awesome, the willpower to choose death over defeat that even shocked Mihawk in the first place. He is the only character in the series who works 24/7 to achieve his goal.
Why didn't all the descendants of Ryuma become the WSS? Because they didn't have his talent for hard work or they didn't have Zoro's willpower.
You are underselling Zoro's greatness. Even in this latest chapter, he unlocked the AdCoC only when he decided to risk his life. Thats what makes Zoro awesome, the willpower to choose death over defeat that even shocked Mihawk in the first place. He is the only character in the series who works 24/7 to achieve his goal.
Why didn't all the descendants of Ryuma become the WSS? Because they didn't have his talent for hard work or they didn't have Zoro's willpower.
You are deliberately misrepresenting my argument
It is problematic because both Luffy and Zoro have it and are using it in battle, and yet Oda didn't explain what ACoC actually does beforehand.
Oda uses mysteries to drive the series. He could have just had CoC play an integral role in the series from the beginning. He could have had Rayleigh use ACoC and show it to Luffy, as Luffy is a conqueror. But he didn't, because he needs to keep the mystery going to keep fans invested.
Yeah we were sure that some form of ACoC existed, merely due to the fact that CoC had zero story relevance despite being hyped so much. However, ACoC was never revealed up until the moment when Luffy awakened it in 1010, which imo is a problem.
If you disagree, then disagree, but stop portraying this as cope
I literally don't care about your retard fandom wars.
It is problematic because both Luffy and Zoro have it and are using it in battle, and yet Oda didn't explain what ACoC actually does beforehand.
Oda uses mysteries to drive the series. He could have just had CoC play an integral role in the series from the beginning. He could have had Rayleigh use ACoC and show it to Luffy, as Luffy is a conqueror. But he didn't, because he needs to keep the mystery going to keep fans invested.
Yeah we were sure that some form of ACoC existed, merely due to the fact that CoC had zero story relevance despite being hyped so much. However, ACoC was never revealed up until the moment when Luffy awakened it in 1010, which imo is a problem.
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If you disagree, then disagree, but stop portraying this as cope
I literally don't care about your retard fandom wars.
I would still not care, because he only accomplished what he accomplished because he is Lebron sperm lol. Sure it would be more impressive than just making it to the NBA, but all of his achievements are undercut by the fact that he would’ve never made it that far if he didnt come from Lebron.
And besides, nobody cares about the WSS title aside from Zoro. Zoro is only competing with himself, and we know he’s going to succeed because he is the descendant of someone who already pulled it off, and Zoro unlocks asspull lineage Powerups every time it seems like he might not actually achieve his goal lol. So again, who cares.
Sounds to me like you just described every other Shonen character lol. There is literally nothing unique about Zoro here. Asta from Black Clover trains ten times harder than Zoro, and Asta didn’t come from a lineage full of people who already achieved his dream before him like Zoro does lol.
Seems like they basically did lmfao, the only other descendant of Ryuma we had ever heard of was the Shogun of Wano at the time. So it seems like Zoro came from a lineage of people who already achieved his dream lol. How am I supposed to be impressed by Zoro again? This shit is literally in his DNA, who cares if he becomes the WSS lol.
The only WSS we’ve ever heard of who didn’t seemingly come from a lineage of previous WSS is Mihawk, but even Mihawk seems to be related to Imu somehow so again, who gives a shit lol. There’s nothing impressive about genetic god-children reaching a goal that is literally baked into their DNA.
What Zoro didn’t understand when he was a child is that Kuina was correct, Zoro would’ve never achieved his goal if he wasn’t specifically born to achieve it. He might train his entire life, hit a wall, and then straight up give up as he realizes he was born incorrectly, but since he was born from Ryuma he’ll achieve his dream. That is literally the only reason at this point, and again, who cares lol.
Zoro should’ve been the one to die, and Kuina should’ve trained her entire life to reach WSS. With a competent writer at the helm, that would’ve been interesting.
(Coincidentally I’ve inadvertently described Shin from Kingdom, who unless Hara ruins Shin by giving him a legendary lineage as well, will actually achieve something impressive in the end unlike Zoro).
And besides, nobody cares about the WSS title aside from Zoro. Zoro is only competing with himself, and we know he’s going to succeed because he is the descendant of someone who already pulled it off, and Zoro unlocks asspull lineage Powerups every time it seems like he might not actually achieve his goal lol. So again, who cares.
Sounds to me like you just described every other Shonen character lol. There is literally nothing unique about Zoro here. Asta from Black Clover trains ten times harder than Zoro, and Asta didn’t come from a lineage full of people who already achieved his dream before him like Zoro does lol.
Seems like they basically did lmfao, the only other descendant of Ryuma we had ever heard of was the Shogun of Wano at the time. So it seems like Zoro came from a lineage of people who already achieved his dream lol. How am I supposed to be impressed by Zoro again? This shit is literally in his DNA, who cares if he becomes the WSS lol.
The only WSS we’ve ever heard of who didn’t seemingly come from a lineage of previous WSS is Mihawk, but even Mihawk seems to be related to Imu somehow so again, who gives a shit lol. There’s nothing impressive about genetic god-children reaching a goal that is literally baked into their DNA.
What Zoro didn’t understand when he was a child is that Kuina was correct, Zoro would’ve never achieved his goal if he wasn’t specifically born to achieve it. He might train his entire life, hit a wall, and then straight up give up as he realizes he was born incorrectly, but since he was born from Ryuma he’ll achieve his dream. That is literally the only reason at this point, and again, who cares lol.
Zoro should’ve been the one to die, and Kuina should’ve trained her entire life to reach WSS. With a competent writer at the helm, that would’ve been interesting.
(Coincidentally I’ve inadvertently described Shin from Kingdom, who unless Hara ruins Shin by giving him a legendary lineage as well, will actually achieve something impressive in the end unlike Zoro).
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@Fleet Admiral Lee Hung reading all your posts, it almost seems as if this topic were personal to you man.
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Ryou is not Advanced Armament. Is basic armament applied on objects/barrier haki.
Advanced Armament is internal destruction which Luffy is doing. Not sure how that would works with weapons.
Sky Splitting was just revealed to be ACoC feat when Luffy and Kaido did. Before that we had Roger and WB spreading clouds which is different and better feat since they were the strongest at their prime. Luffy and Kaido first did that too. Yamato and Kaido too.
Advanced Armament is internal destruction which Luffy is doing. Not sure how that would works with weapons.
Sky Splitting was just revealed to be ACoC feat when Luffy and Kaido did. Before that we had Roger and WB spreading clouds which is different and better feat since they were the strongest at their prime. Luffy and Kaido first did that too. Yamato and Kaido too.
