Rank These Qin Generals
- Thread starter SakazOuki
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Ri Boku fought in the same wars as them. You know full well that is not the same as facing them, and you have enough context on Ri Boku being very wrong in his assessments very often times in the past that it matters.
I spared you this logic as it cuts both ways. It would be intellectually dishonest to claim YTW has 2 wins over Ri Boku because she sent him packing at Sai and throttled Zhao reinforcements by holding Ryouyou.
So did Ou Ki. He considered Tou an equal, I disagree with that, but I still put considerably more weight in what a man of his calibre and experience thinks of another he considers of equal ability. I don't think that's a crazy take. Also, no disrespect to Hakugoat, but what would he know about the real deal 6GG talents compared to those who are at that level and have done more than collect Ls against people in their echelon?
Your scale is off.
I think you're forgetting the most basic tenet of storytelling. What matters is what you're shown, not what you're told. This is Kingdom. Hyperbolic praise, reactions, comparisons and statements are nothing new. Characters sweat bullets when they receive the weather report.
I have no concerns about my memory of what happened, was said, or was said about what happened. The difference is that I don't forget the basic rule and place everything in the context it is delivered.
Like those two examples you posted. Ka Ryo Ten's assessment of Kan Ki at Koku You was based on real insight. She wasn't wondering whether Kan Ki's brutal methods were effective in reducing casualties, she was stating what she believed to be a fact based on actual insight. Ri Boku acknowledged a fallen adversary in making a speculative comment about their ability. Ka Ryo Ten stated, Ri Boku gave voice to a possibility he thought of. Big difference.
Kan Ki took a shot at Kei Sha and missed because of Ki Sui. It was a move that failed among many that didn't. Nothing to get excited over.
He did nevertheless did fail at that juncture and ultimately had nothing to do with Shin happening upon Kei Sha and killing him. He wasn't aware of it until after he had already acted on the information he extracted on Ki Sui.
Your characterisation of Eikyuu and Ko Chou are both categorically wrong. For one, Ko Chou was not overconfident, he was rightly suspicious of Kan Ki and investigating his strategy right until it was too late. Kan Ki may have counted on Ko Chou being overconfident - he never met the guy - but we know for a fact that Ko Chou was not underestimating him for a second.
Ko Chou needed to escape because his HQ was under his attack.
His HQ came under attack because it was vulnerable as a consequence of Ko Chou moving 5K soldiers.
Ko Chou moved those 5K soldiers because Eikyuu had fallen.
Eikyuu fell because Shin, Ou Hon, A Ka Kin, Kyou Kai and other talented officers worked their assess off, with no guidance or direction from Kan Ki beyond the order to take it.
You're being dishonest characterising it as "he left some details to the new gen" and that they were moving according to his scheme. They moved according to his desires and/or expectations because they managed to deliver results without his guidance or input.
Tou was up against four Fire Dragons and Ran Bi Haku with significantly inferior numbers. He was expected to call for reinforcements Qin couldn't necessarily afford at the time.
I don't think you grasp the gravity of the decision to not only treat the campaign as an opportunity for the young officers to cut their teeth, but to also trust them with its success. That's judgment, that's vision, and it's ballsy as fuck. It's not like Tou was just sitting on his ass in the meantime either. He had to play the role of decoy, that meant putting himself in danger to sell the ruse.
Kan Ki's strategy against Ko Chou doesn't work without others doing extreme heavy-lifting, and as established Kan Ki had no direction on Eikyuu's fall beyond ordering it to happen, which amounts to expressing a desire, an expectation at most (certainly of the HSU, not so much the Gyoku Hou).
He got Kei Sha in a trap, his prey still got away. "Blackmailing" or committing war crimes to force Ki Sui down the mountain wasn't necessary nor particularly impressive. It doesn't exactly require a deep thinker, just a willingness to hurt people that don't deserve it. I don't consider savagery a feat, just a personality default.
His ambush on Ri Boku was only possible because Gi'an was taken under his nose, which is another feat Kan Ki had nothing to do with as the HSU coming across Hanzen and independently deciding on a course of action was happenstance. Kan Ki spent that entire arc willingly walking into an ambush, losing close to the entirety of his 140K troops, on the run, hiding, and then fighting a race against time in a risky ambush. See, context.
He didn't just defend himself, he held his position, as he was ordered to do.
And again, you're being blatant in just framing the situation to Tou being faced with a numerical disadvantage. That was bad in and of itself, but what made it worse is that he lost Roku O Mi and Kan Ou during the battle, and that he was facing an army that was elite, fresh, equipped with numerous weapons, and led by an extremely talented unknown.
Ka Rin had every advantage a general could ask for. And again, the manga broke the fourth wall to praise Tou's response to supposedly insurmountable odds.
I'm not even going to bother talking about how easily he tore through the Juukou Army either. I feel that should speak for itself.
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Held off a 50K army with 5K, slew Rin Bu Kun with ease rendered his army to tatters, held his position against Ka Rin, conquered Choyou and defeated four Fire Dragons + Ran Bi Haku and played a leading role in defeating the powerful Juukou Army.
Not bad considering he's not had the much panel time, and I didn't even mention him killing Chou Sou at Bayou.
Tou's best achievement is defeating four Fire Dragons and Ran Bi Haku with inferior numbers.
Kan Ki's best feat is between a failed ambush in which he died a human pincushion and hiding long enough to kill an old man practically served up by other talented officers that will surpass him in short order.
That, and all the Chu and Wei armies he has faced and beaten. But whose keeping count?
Others had the real achievements.
Kan Ki was just close enough to get a contact credit.
I've been very clear in illustrating the obvious in Kan Ki's hands-off leadership. If you want to ignore it, I don't care to repeat it.
Nor am I, but I also don't see the use in assuming his career path to Head of Military Affairs involved comparable experience to field general with decades of experience.
I spared you this logic as it cuts both ways. It would be intellectually dishonest to claim YTW has 2 wins over Ri Boku because she sent him packing at Sai and throttled Zhao reinforcements by holding Ryouyou.
So did Ou Ki. He considered Tou an equal, I disagree with that, but I still put considerably more weight in what a man of his calibre and experience thinks of another he considers of equal ability. I don't think that's a crazy take. Also, no disrespect to Hakugoat, but what would he know about the real deal 6GG talents compared to those who are at that level and have done more than collect Ls against people in their echelon?
Your scale is off.
I think you're forgetting the most basic tenet of storytelling. What matters is what you're shown, not what you're told. This is Kingdom. Hyperbolic praise, reactions, comparisons and statements are nothing new. Characters sweat bullets when they receive the weather report.
I have no concerns about my memory of what happened, was said, or was said about what happened. The difference is that I don't forget the basic rule and place everything in the context it is delivered.
Like those two examples you posted. Ka Ryo Ten's assessment of Kan Ki at Koku You was based on real insight. She wasn't wondering whether Kan Ki's brutal methods were effective in reducing casualties, she was stating what she believed to be a fact based on actual insight. Ri Boku acknowledged a fallen adversary in making a speculative comment about their ability. Ka Ryo Ten stated, Ri Boku gave voice to a possibility he thought of. Big difference.
Kan Ki took a shot at Kei Sha and missed because of Ki Sui. It was a move that failed among many that didn't. Nothing to get excited over.
He did nevertheless did fail at that juncture and ultimately had nothing to do with Shin happening upon Kei Sha and killing him. He wasn't aware of it until after he had already acted on the information he extracted on Ki Sui.
Your characterisation of Eikyuu and Ko Chou are both categorically wrong. For one, Ko Chou was not overconfident, he was rightly suspicious of Kan Ki and investigating his strategy right until it was too late. Kan Ki may have counted on Ko Chou being overconfident - he never met the guy - but we know for a fact that Ko Chou was not underestimating him for a second.
Ko Chou needed to escape because his HQ was under his attack.
His HQ came under attack because it was vulnerable as a consequence of Ko Chou moving 5K soldiers.
Ko Chou moved those 5K soldiers because Eikyuu had fallen.
Eikyuu fell because Shin, Ou Hon, A Ka Kin, Kyou Kai and other talented officers worked their assess off, with no guidance or direction from Kan Ki beyond the order to take it.
You're being dishonest characterising it as "he left some details to the new gen" and that they were moving according to his scheme. They moved according to his desires and/or expectations because they managed to deliver results without his guidance or input.
Tou was up against four Fire Dragons and Ran Bi Haku with significantly inferior numbers. He was expected to call for reinforcements Qin couldn't necessarily afford at the time.
I don't think you grasp the gravity of the decision to not only treat the campaign as an opportunity for the young officers to cut their teeth, but to also trust them with its success. That's judgment, that's vision, and it's ballsy as fuck. It's not like Tou was just sitting on his ass in the meantime either. He had to play the role of decoy, that meant putting himself in danger to sell the ruse.
Kan Ki's strategy against Ko Chou doesn't work without others doing extreme heavy-lifting, and as established Kan Ki had no direction on Eikyuu's fall beyond ordering it to happen, which amounts to expressing a desire, an expectation at most (certainly of the HSU, not so much the Gyoku Hou).
He got Kei Sha in a trap, his prey still got away. "Blackmailing" or committing war crimes to force Ki Sui down the mountain wasn't necessary nor particularly impressive. It doesn't exactly require a deep thinker, just a willingness to hurt people that don't deserve it. I don't consider savagery a feat, just a personality default.
His ambush on Ri Boku was only possible because Gi'an was taken under his nose, which is another feat Kan Ki had nothing to do with as the HSU coming across Hanzen and independently deciding on a course of action was happenstance. Kan Ki spent that entire arc willingly walking into an ambush, losing close to the entirety of his 140K troops, on the run, hiding, and then fighting a race against time in a risky ambush. See, context.
He didn't just defend himself, he held his position, as he was ordered to do.
And again, you're being blatant in just framing the situation to Tou being faced with a numerical disadvantage. That was bad in and of itself, but what made it worse is that he lost Roku O Mi and Kan Ou during the battle, and that he was facing an army that was elite, fresh, equipped with numerous weapons, and led by an extremely talented unknown.
Ka Rin had every advantage a general could ask for. And again, the manga broke the fourth wall to praise Tou's response to supposedly insurmountable odds.
I'm not even going to bother talking about how easily he tore through the Juukou Army either. I feel that should speak for itself.
[automerge]1702075913[/automerge]
Held off a 50K army with 5K, slew Rin Bu Kun with ease rendered his army to tatters, held his position against Ka Rin, conquered Choyou and defeated four Fire Dragons + Ran Bi Haku and played a leading role in defeating the powerful Juukou Army.
Not bad considering he's not had the much panel time, and I didn't even mention him killing Chou Sou at Bayou.
Tou's best achievement is defeating four Fire Dragons and Ran Bi Haku with inferior numbers.
Kan Ki's best feat is between a failed ambush in which he died a human pincushion and hiding long enough to kill an old man practically served up by other talented officers that will surpass him in short order.
That, and all the Chu and Wei armies he has faced and beaten. But whose keeping count?
Others had the real achievements.
Kan Ki was just close enough to get a contact credit.
I've been very clear in illustrating the obvious in Kan Ki's hands-off leadership. If you want to ignore it, I don't care to repeat it.
Nor am I, but I also don't see the use in assuming his career path to Head of Military Affairs involved comparable experience to field general with decades of experience.
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1: Hakuki
2: Ousen
3: Ouki
4: Moubu
5: SHK
6: Tou
7: Duke
8: YTW
9: Kanki
10: Kyuo
11: Shibasaku
12: Koushou
13: mr i got one shoted by a 14 year old Kanmei
Not sure if i'm happy with this
The only thing i'm confident on is Kanki is the weakest of this generation and Hakuki was the strongest of the former generation while the bum Ou kutsu can rest comfortably at the last place of all time
I have put Moubu over Ousen before but he's more versatile so i guess i'll put him ahead here
Ouki could be above Ousen as well
I have Insane expectations from SHK
Wouldn't shock me if he ended up above even Ousen
2: Ousen
3: Ouki
4: Moubu
5: SHK
6: Tou
7: Duke
8: YTW
9: Kanki
10: Kyuo
11: Shibasaku
12: Koushou
13: mr i got one shoted by a 14 year old Kanmei
Not sure if i'm happy with this
The only thing i'm confident on is Kanki is the weakest of this generation and Hakuki was the strongest of the former generation while the bum Ou kutsu can rest comfortably at the last place of all time
I have put Moubu over Ousen before but he's more versatile so i guess i'll put him ahead here
Ouki could be above Ousen as well
I have Insane expectations from SHK
Wouldn't shock me if he ended up above even Ousen
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So? Riboku having more experience against Qin then Gohoumei is a fact. He is more reliable source between the two. I'm not saying Riboku is always right, but he is a guy who metodically researches everything he can about his opponents.
If we are talking in general sense then Tou is Ouki's equal, but you can say the same about a lot of characters now, so the statement itself doesn't hold that much weight. And as I mentioned before Kanki also has a statement comparing him to Ouki.
Even if you believe the manga statements are hyperbolic, my initial point still stands. Kanki's hype is superior to Tou's. Kanki was put on a high pedestal by several characters (Mougou, Riboku, Ousen, Karyoten, even Shin to some extent). Tou received two favorible statements from Ouki and Gohoumei. No matter what mental gymnastics you make the manga praised Kanki's abilities more.
I'm not denying that new gen were working without the guidance or that the plan depended on their success. But they were just part of the puzzle. The other part was luring Kochou into false sense of security due to his advantages. Which resulted in him moving most of his army to attack and lowering his defences, since at this point he believed Kanki is finished. In the end it was Kanki's plan that gave Qin victory and allowed to turn the tables. Not Ouhon's, Shin's or anyone else.
I understand it, but I'm not gonna pretend that what happened in this war is some amazing achievement on Tou's part. Delegating task to new gen and being a decoy is something that any commander of this caliber should be able to do. I would be more impressed if Tou himself came up with a plan that would give Qin a victory, but that is still not something we've seen.
Technically it didn't got away, since Shin killing Keisha was a result of him leaving his web and would be impossible under normal circumstances. There were some miscalculations (mainly Kisui overperforming), but overall Keisha exposing himself and dying was the result of Kanki's scheme.
Then it means you are biased, because those were presented as legitimate war tactics that are available for Kanki that most generals in the series won't even consider.
I'm not gonna argue too hard here, because I do think this arc overall was a weak performance on Kanki's part. With all that in mind Kanki was still capable of creating a situation where he nearly killed Riboku with only handful soldiers and it was implied that he was the only man in 6GG who could get this close. And for that he deserves some praise.
He didn't have Rokuomi and Kanou, because he sent them to engage enemies first wave. It was direct consequence of his own decision. You also have to remember that Karin's main goal was not to take Tou's head, but to sneak the troops behind him. The assaults main purpose was a distraction, which she herself admitted so it's unclear if the result would be the same if Karin was aiming for Tou from the start.
If we are talking in general sense then Tou is Ouki's equal, but you can say the same about a lot of characters now, so the statement itself doesn't hold that much weight. And as I mentioned before Kanki also has a statement comparing him to Ouki.
Even if you believe the manga statements are hyperbolic, my initial point still stands. Kanki's hype is superior to Tou's. Kanki was put on a high pedestal by several characters (Mougou, Riboku, Ousen, Karyoten, even Shin to some extent). Tou received two favorible statements from Ouki and Gohoumei. No matter what mental gymnastics you make the manga praised Kanki's abilities more.
I'm not denying that new gen were working without the guidance or that the plan depended on their success. But they were just part of the puzzle. The other part was luring Kochou into false sense of security due to his advantages. Which resulted in him moving most of his army to attack and lowering his defences, since at this point he believed Kanki is finished. In the end it was Kanki's plan that gave Qin victory and allowed to turn the tables. Not Ouhon's, Shin's or anyone else.
I understand it, but I'm not gonna pretend that what happened in this war is some amazing achievement on Tou's part. Delegating task to new gen and being a decoy is something that any commander of this caliber should be able to do. I would be more impressed if Tou himself came up with a plan that would give Qin a victory, but that is still not something we've seen.
Technically it didn't got away, since Shin killing Keisha was a result of him leaving his web and would be impossible under normal circumstances. There were some miscalculations (mainly Kisui overperforming), but overall Keisha exposing himself and dying was the result of Kanki's scheme.
Then it means you are biased, because those were presented as legitimate war tactics that are available for Kanki that most generals in the series won't even consider.
I'm not gonna argue too hard here, because I do think this arc overall was a weak performance on Kanki's part. With all that in mind Kanki was still capable of creating a situation where he nearly killed Riboku with only handful soldiers and it was implied that he was the only man in 6GG who could get this close. And for that he deserves some praise.
He didn't have Rokuomi and Kanou, because he sent them to engage enemies first wave. It was direct consequence of his own decision. You also have to remember that Karin's main goal was not to take Tou's head, but to sneak the troops behind him. The assaults main purpose was a distraction, which she herself admitted so it's unclear if the result would be the same if Karin was aiming for Tou from the start.
YTW leadership, kingly weight, experience, martial skills and strategies, I still can't see any of Qin 6 winning against her with her Mountain People by her side.
Individually as GG though I'd rank Hakuki and Ouki above her. Maybe Houken, Ousen and SHK also, but that's about it. No wonder her stats are 2nd bests overall.
Individually as GG though I'd rank Hakuki and Ouki above her. Maybe Houken, Ousen and SHK also, but that's about it. No wonder her stats are 2nd bests overall.