Rank These Qin Generals

Strongest Qin General


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#61
Ima stop you right there. The fact of the series is that Moubu is the strongest offensive power in Qin history. A statement that has little meaning until you realize that Kyou was a purely offensive 6GG, and that Moubu is also shown as stronger than Oukotsu. A huge part of Moubu’s current hype is that he is above these two, pulling a bunch of Kyou’s feats out of context doesn’t change this.
Lee bro, stop scaling Moubu so high as a general just based on him being the strongest.

In an army battle even a single arrow can change the course of battle. @Owl Ki knows the pain of arrow more clearly.

Here Kyou is not only has amazing strength (the way she put wounds on Houken in short battle) but she's also an amazing strategical general or more importantly part of Q6. So even if Moubu is higher in martial strength, Kyou can put him down by many different means (like arrow or spears).
 
#63
I didn’t say he was the strongest warrior, I said he was the strongest offensive power in Qin history. Which directly puts him above Kyou and Oukotsu as a general.
It's not like even the strongest offense can't be countered !! Like i said , if it's a battle of armies than Kyou is defeating Moubu for sure. She just needs to make him stop in one location for a while and archers or spear weirders can make multiple fatal blows.

Karin tried same thing on MouBu in coalition as well when he was fighting Kanmei.
 

Elder Lee Hung

Conqueror of the Stars
#64
It's not like even the strongest offense can't be countered !!
I never said it couldn’t lol. I said Moubu > Kyou which is factual. Kyou couldn’t even beat Houken.

Like i said , if it's a battle of armies than Kyou is defeating Moubu for sure.
Source: my ass hole

Karin tried same thing on MouBu in coalition as well when he was fighting Kanmei.
Which failed. Lol
 
#65
I never said it couldn’t lol. I said Moubu > Kyou which is factual. Kyou couldn’t even beat Houken.
Lmao.... what does MouBu being more stronger than Kyou meant when it's about ranking generals. You quote me first when as a general Kyou is above Moubu (which is based on there performance on field with armies not individually) otherwise even Ouki is more powerful than HakuKi (databook based info for manga) or Tou/Duke/YTW being more powerful than HakuKi or Ousen.

You would be more clear about it if your hole is capable enough or it might be leaking like your brain. Lol


But the arrow on Ouki didn't failed but you have some issues in understanding the point even when i put it above as an example as well.

To make it more clear for you , here's another example of Rokuomi getting distracted from arrows while getting pummeled by Chu's commander in coalition.
 
#66
I think Moubu's ability to raise morale is severly underestimated which then leads people to weird conclusions like Moubu only being good on a small scale. It's been shown on more then one ocasion how the troops go apeshit insane when Moubu leads them to the point where Ouki and Tou were calling him a cheater for overpowering full encirclement FROM ALL SIDES.

I know that a lot of things about Moubu just doesn't make much sense, but the hype and potrayal that Hara gave to this man should not be ignored.
 
#67
I know that a lot of things about Moubu just doesn't make much sense, but the hype and potrayal that Hara gave to this man should not be ignored.
Moubu has this unique ability to him where, somehow, he's able to have his army overcome tactics that any other Great General wouldn't be able to overcome if using just brute strenght. In an era where "strategy is everything" (Shouheikun) Moubu is the only man who can bring the opposite phenomenon (in terms of end result). He's the greatest offensive power in Qin's history now. Ouki said that his knowledge of warfare ran deep.

The Qin Six are all extreme as generals. Someone like Gaimou might well match Moubu in a 1v1 fight but he wouldn't get a Qin Six spot in a thousand years.
 

TheAncientCenturion

I will never forgive Oda
‎‎‎
#68

Elder Lee Hung

Conqueror of the Stars
#71
I think Moubu's ability to raise morale is severly underestimated which then leads people to weird conclusions like Moubu only being good on a small scale. It's been shown on more then one ocasion how the troops go apeshit insane when Moubu leads them to the point where Ouki and Tou were calling him a cheater for overpowering full encirclement FROM ALL SIDES.

I know that a lot of things about Moubu just doesn't make much sense, but the hype and potrayal that Hara gave to this man should not be ignored.
Somehow someway people got the impression that Moubu is strictly a warrior with no abilities as a general lol. To this day I have no idea how. I was rereading Moubu’s echelon at Coalition, and Heki even said that the strength he had gained from Moubu’s speech was unreal and was amping him up lol. The same was true for all Moubu’s troops whose strength was amped humonglusly from Moubu’s speech.

This is to mention nothing of Moubu amping the old men at Bayou to overpower an environment from trained elites from the inside. Moubu is one of the best morale raisers of all time, anyone who says different isn’t reading this series.
 
#74
His hype doesn't outshine Kanki, lmao.
I think I quite clearly demonstrated that it does given the context and individuals doing the hyping.

Most of this:

Kanki's hype is as follows:
>Being called the best general in Qin at turning the tables by Mogou.
>Being compared to Ouki by Mougou (stated in guidebook 2).
>Being called equal to Riboku on few ocasions including by Riboku himself.
>Being called the best member of 6GG at the time + the most well known.

This is easily better then two statements Tou got from Ouki and GHM.
boils down to boasts, expressions of confidence and speculative claims. Even the biggest praise you list at the end was Ri Boku merely speculating - having never faced Mou Bu, Tou or Yo Tan Wa in battle.

Bad comparison are made in Kingdom all the time. We just had a chapter in which Ji Aga was compared to Mou Bu and I think that comparison is closer than Kan Ki ever was to Ou Ki's level.

The former best general of Qin, the current best general of Qin, the best general of Wei have all acknowledged Tou, who also has had way less focus by comparison (which will likely change during the Han Campaign).

I put considerably more weight in that then Mou Gou's assessment of Kan Ki or Ri Boku's speculation on how good he could truly be. If you want to argue he has more potential than Tou, I think that's pretty much a given. In terms of pure talent in warfare, Kan Ki is a different tier altogether (my view). Trouble is, Kan Ki was designed to be flawed. He was designed to be a savant of warfare that achieved only a fraction of what he was capable of because his abhorrent views and acts ultimately stunted him as a person.

He played a major role in Sanyou, at Kankoku Pass repelled Wei and orchestrated the death of Han's commander in chief.
These are good feats.

Is it your sincere view they measure up to Tou easily slaying Rin Bu Kun, defeating his army, and then performing as well he did against Ka Rin's fresh army + the remnants of the Rin Bu Kun Army without his strongest fighting officers? Do you put those feats on equal footing Tou's handling of the Choyou Campaign? I do not.

None of it had anything to do with new gen.
Everything else after did though, and those are his biggest wins - Koku You and Eikyuu.

The argument of new gen is fair in his later two battles, but it was still Kanki who was planing everything and it was him who was orchestrating those situations.
What did Kan Ki plan in taking Eikyuu besides ordering it to be taken? As I recall, he didn't even discuss it with Ou Hon, or any of the officers he sent to meat grinder before that.

You can't say the same about Tou in Chiyoyou who simply gave Ouhon the initiative and wen't along. Tou's only achievement in this war was recognizing new gen's potencial and giving them free reign plus playing the bait.
Cichy, am I supposed to pretend you're not smart enough to recall how Tou used Ou Hon and Mou Ten during the Coalition War and that you don't know how vital that context is to Tou's decision-making during the Choyou Campaign? Come on, my guy.

Tou weighed the options and decided on Ou Hon's plan, and then played his part, which speaks to his character and the intangibles I keep talking about. Do you think just any general would accept going along with Ou Hon's plan the way Tou did? Most would insist on being part of the strike forces in some shape or have their glory in some other way.

It's one thing to understand the importance in helping the next generation of generals, it's a whole other thing to take an active part in cultivating that. It's not just Tou that has done it either, which is why I bring up this exact issue in relation to Ou Sen as well. Ou Sen's actions with Q3 during the Q3 were deliberate and measured to get the absolute best out of them. Kan Ki did not do that, that simply wasn't his thing.

What? No, he didn't. Where are you taking those numbers from?
Chapter 262 - it's when Chu invade with 50K and Tou intercepts them with 5K.

Besides Tou failed at his job of protecting the mountain pass which was his main job in this war.
Was it just Tou's job to defend Kankoku Pass or was he sharing a battlefield with Mou Bu against Chu?

Mind you, Tou had 30K (and Mou Bu 60k) and fought 2/3 armies sent by Chu. He lost about 10K men defeating Rin Bu Kun, and lost his second strongest fighter in the battle. He then fought with like 20K or so against the 50K Ka Rin Army + 10K remnants from the Rin Bu Kun and still overcame an impossible situation in which 2/3 of his remaining officers were cut off.

Ka Rin had the numbers, she had the element of surprise, she had the weapons - and ultimately she could only get 5K men through and they still failed.

If your glaring indictment against Tou is that he let that happen, you don't have much of a case.
 
#76
boils down to boasts, expressions of confidence and speculative claims. Even the biggest praise you list at the end was Ri Boku merely speculating - having never faced Mou Bu, Tou or Yo Tan Wa in battle.
Riboku faced all of them in battle to various degree. Moubu and Tou in Bayou, Yotanwa in Coalition War, Ousen on Shukai Plains. He also must have got the exact reports about Yotanwa's performance in Ryouyou plus he witnessed the Battle of Koku You. In terms of knowledge of Qin's military Riboku is easily more reliable source then Gohoumei at this point due to having more experience facing them.

I put considerably more weight in that then Mou Gou's assessment of Kan Ki or Ri Boku's speculation on how good he could truly be.
Mougou having good eye for talent is one of his main sticks. He is the goat when comes to understanding and evaluating talent of others.

These are good feats.

Is it your sincere view they measure up to Tou easily slaying Rin Bu Kun, defeating his army, and then performing as well he did against Ka Rin's fresh army + the remnants of the Rin Bu Kun Army without his strongest fighting officers? Do you put those feats on equal footing Tou's handling of the Choyou Campaign? I do not.
If we take all of them together then sure, they are above of what Tou was able to accomlish.

I think you already forgot how much the manga was wanking Kanki's acomplishments.




Everything else after did though, and those are his biggest wins - Koku You and Eikyuu.



What did Kan Ki plan in taking Eikyuu besides ordering it to be taken? As I recall, he didn't even discuss it with Ou Hon, or any of the officers he sent to meat grinder before that.
I'm talking about his overall plans in those battles. In Koku You he found a way to expose Keisha to danger + later removed Kisui with his bluff that gave Qin victory. In Eikyuu he created a situation where Kochou became overconfident in his abilities and he even predicted the exact direction of Kochou's escape to block him. Sure, he left some details to the new gen, but they still moved according to his scheme.

Cichy, am I supposed to pretend you're not smart enough to recall how Tou used Ou Hon and Mou Ten during the Coalition War and that you don't know how vital that context is to Tou's decision-making during the Choyou Campaign? Come on, my guy.

Tou weighed the options and decided on Ou Hon's plan, and then played his part, which speaks to his character and the intangibles I keep talking about. Do you think just any general would accept going along with Ou Hon's plan the way Tou did? Most would insist on being part of the strike forces in some shape or have their glory in some other way.

It's one thing to understand the importance in helping the next generation of generals, it's a whole other thing to take an active part in cultivating that. It's not just Tou that has done it either, which is why I bring up this exact issue in relation to Ou Sen as well. Ou Sen's actions with Q3 during the Q3 were deliberate and measured to get the absolute best out of them. Kan Ki did not do that, that simply wasn't his thing.
Tou shown good judgement by trusting in Ouhon, but I'm not gonna pretent like Chiyoyou war is some amazing achievement on his part, because let's be honest, it's not. Kanki cooking up schemes that give Qin victories is more impressive then Tou making the right call about delegating 90% of the job to someone else. In Kanki's battle's even if new gen were responsible for parts of the execution it was always Kanki's mind that directed of whats about to happen (Sun Bin, waiting out Keisha, blackmailing Kisui, ambush on Riboku etc). But in Chiyoyou both the plan and most of the execution is a result of new gen doing their thing.

Mind you, Tou had 30K (and Mou Bu 60k) and fought 2/3 armies sent by Chu. He lost about 10K men defeating Rin Bu Kun, and lost his second strongest fighter in the battle. He then fought with like 20K or so against the 50K Ka Rin Army + 10K remnants from the Rin Bu Kun and still overcame an impossible situation in which 2/3 of his remaining officers were cut off.

Ka Rin had the numbers, she had the element of surprise, she had the weapons - and ultimately she could only get 5K men through and they still failed.
Tou being able to defend himself despite overwhelming number disadvantage is a good feat for him. But Kanki being able to score an actual victory despite overwhelming number disadvantage and outplaying high caliber general is even better. Simple as that.
 
#77
Words are ultimately just that. They cannot substitute the worth of action.

We've seen Tou's worth through his actions numerous times now during the Coalition War, Choyou and Juukou.

Kan Ki, by comparison, does not measure up to him under any honest scrutiny.
What has Tou done as a leading general compared to Kanki
Tou‘s best feat so far revolves around giving Ouhon the responsibility to formulate a plan against the Wei dragons
His second best feat was handing the command of the left and right wings to Ouhon and Mouten in the coalition war
Tou’s hype comes solely from words

Kanki has countless achievements under his belt

As for his achievements, while he certainly deserves his share of the credit, when it comes to his greatest achievements, Kan Ki simply shares too much of it with others, whose contributions he could not reasonably claim any credit for because of the undeniable fact he's
never been a hands on commander.
You’re thinking too much into it, this happens with every general
Kanki is a genius recognized by countless top tiers, and performed insanely well against impossible odds

We can speculate a great deal on what SHK may or may not have done off panel.

We know for a fact a great many things Tou has actually done and achieved.

Surely you can appreciate the difference and see how it doesn't make sense to assume a military mind mostly devoted to the grand strategy of an entire nation is equally capable in the field to someone like Tou who has devoted their entire life to it?
I do appreciate Tou’s experience, which is why I said SHK might be lacking some experience compared to him
Speculation can go so far but I’m not gonna pretend SHK became Qin’s chief of military affairs by farming potatoes lol
 
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