Character Discussion Regarding ZKK and people's criticism of Wano

#1
Let me start by saying that I'm not someone who supports the whole ZKK thing. We'll just have to wait for the story to unfold to see if that has any merit or not.

Anyway, I came across a Twitter thread yesterday discussing Zoro's recent declaration: that he will be the one to cut Kaido. One person said that there's no build-up that points to Zoro doing this and that the story wouldn't make sense for Zoro to be the one to beat Kaido since everything points to Luffy as the one to do it. I agree with that point, but then he said that (and I'm paraphrasing here) "Oda has made a liar out of Zoro this whole arc and I won't be surprised if he makes a liar out of him again with this statement". He's basically saying Oda had Zoro make this statement with apparently zero plans of following through with it, in essence betraying Zoro's character.

Now, we can look at this arc or even post-TS and probably think that makes sense, but I think most people are forgetting this one particular scene: "I will never lose again!". I think a lot of people would agree that this scene is one of the greatest scenes in pre-TS One Piece. Unfortunately, if we follow the same criticism people are throwing out today, then this epic scene would've been a lie. Zoro made a declaration, not unlike what he recently made, that before he beats Mihawk, he will NEVER lose again, and since then, how many times has Zoro lost?

Some of you might argue that "Of course it wouldn't make sense in the story if Zoro NEVER lost at all" and I would agree. The problem is when you declare that Zoro's Wano declaration, if not satisfied, is a betrayal of Zoro's character while you are perfectly fine with his declaration pre-TS. I have never seen anyone criticize this pre-TS moment and Zoro's succeeding loses afterwards. I know this since I'm 32 and I've been following this series half of my life and I remember thinking to myelf during Ennies Lobby "How many times has Zoro lost now? Didn't Zoro make that sweeping declaration of never losing again?".

All I'm saying with this is that people tend to put pre-TS on a pedestal and slandering post-TS by comparing the two without acknowledging the fact that when most people got into One Piece, most of pre-TS was already done and that the tone and direction of post-TS is completely different from pre-TS. The brilliant Marineford arc? If you read that week-on-week you'd know that felt like a mess sometimes plotwise. I loved it of couse because of all the epic moments, but that's how it felt at the time. As a completed arc though? It's majestic.

Thanks for reading.
 
#2
Either Luffy or Zoro could land the final blow on Kaido. Luffy is the main character and has declared he will defeat all of the Yonko, but Zoro has the inherited will of Ryuma and Oden. I would be happy either way. The fact that it's even a possibility for Zoro is astounding to me. I remember during Dressrosa, I saw people saying Zoro would defeat Doflamingo and thought they were stupid. Now, I think ZKK could legitimately happen.
 
#3
What Zoro meant after losing to Mihawk is that from now on, when Luffy entrusts him with an Opponent, Zoro won't lose again
It doesn't mean he won't fail again.

All the times where Zoro lost, it was against an Enemy that most Crew fought, it wasn't "HIS" Fight, it was a Danger they are facing together. However if we only check the Opponents where Zoro decided to handle himself or Luffy entrusted them to him then we get:

Hatchan - Tashigi - Mr. 1 - Braham - Ohm - T-Bone - Kaku - Ryuma - Hody - Hyouzou - Monet - Pica - Killer - Apoo

These are the Fights that Zoro said he will handle them & rest of Crew can leave him alone & these are the Fights that Luffy entrusted to him, these were "HIS" Fights/Job/Problem to solve & he never Lost

However the Defeats you're talking about are against a Common Enemy that it is Everyone's Job to defeat them but usually end up being Luffy's Problem & these are:

Arlong - Enel - Lucci - Oars & Moriah - Kuma - Kizaru

Not only these Opponents were whole's Crew Problem initially but he faced them in unfair situations & hardly considered "Loses"

He fought Arlong with Sanji after he just defeated Hatchan & he had that Huge Scar on his Chest, even Arlong was shocked when he saw it & wanted to kill Zoro because his existence insults Fishmen (Who are supposed to be stronger than Humans)

He fought Enel along with 3 others & after he survived an Hour of fighting multiple Enemies & Enel was a Logia, Zoro can't fight him even if he wanted to

Lucci was hardly a "Loss" because he simply lost the Clash & got sent flying with Luffy, he didn't lose the Fight completely, they were both surprised by Lucci's Power & were completely fine after that encounter

He didn't lose against Moriah & Oars, he definitely struggled a lot but again it wasn't his Fight, it was Whole Crew fighting

He fought Kuma after the whole Thriller Bark Battle, everyone was very exhausted & at their limits, and he basically didn't lose, he avoided the fight entirely once he knew he can't save his Captain from Kuma so he offered himself in return. In other words, Zoro didn't really lose, he simply met a far stronger opponent that he decided not to continue fighting

Kizaru wasn't a Fight, he was very injured & tired from Kuma's Injuries & Kizaru simply attacked him the moment he arrived

In Conclusion:

Zoro technically lost against Enel only & he refused to fight Kuma, aside from these Zoro never Lost a Fight & both those encounter don't meet the requirements meant from that Promise of Zoro since one he stopped fighting himself & the other one, it wasn't the fight entrusted to him, it wasn't his Job, it was simply a Common Enemy that only Luffy could counter among those present on the Island

"Zoro never broke his Promise to Luffy"
When it's "HIS" Job to handle someone in place of others, then he always wins
 
#8
I am skeptical of Zkk theory but oda has a thing to twist his readers to keep it unpredicatable , i can see him cut kaido or nearly kill him.

Wano did not see oden's feat so any scratch or fatal shot zoro does will be seen as heroic . Oda hates killing his villain and he knows well readers will attempt ryuma parallèle but after shusui sword got exchanged in wano i am not sure.
 
#9
What Zoro meant after losing to Mihawk is that from now on, when Luffy entrusts him with an Opponent, Zoro won't lose again
It doesn't mean he won't fail again.

All the times where Zoro lost, it was against an Enemy that most Crew fought, it wasn't "HIS" Fight, it was a Danger they are facing together. However if we only check the Opponents where Zoro decided to handle himself or Luffy entrusted them to him then we get:

Hatchan - Tashigi - Mr. 1 - Braham - Ohm - T-Bone - Kaku - Ryuma - Hody - Hyouzou - Monet - Pica - Killer - Apoo

These are the Fights that Zoro said he will handle them & rest of Crew can leave him alone & these are the Fights that Luffy entrusted to him, these were "HIS" Fights/Job/Problem to solve & he never Lost

However the Defeats you're talking about are against a Common Enemy that it is Everyone's Job to defeat them but usually end up being Luffy's Problem & these are:

Arlong - Enel - Lucci - Oars & Moriah - Kuma - Kizaru

Not only these Opponents were whole's Crew Problem initially but he faced them in unfair situations & hardly considered "Loses"

He fought Arlong with Sanji after he just defeated Hatchan & he had that Huge Scar on his Chest, even Arlong was shocked when he saw it & wanted to kill Zoro because his existence insults Fishmen (Who are supposed to be stronger than Humans)

He fought Enel along with 3 others & after he survived an Hour of fighting multiple Enemies & Enel was a Logia, Zoro can't fight him even if he wanted to

Lucci was hardly a "Loss" because he simply lost the Clash & got sent flying with Luffy, he didn't lose the Fight completely, they were both surprised by Lucci's Power & were completely fine after that encounter

He didn't lose against Moriah & Oars, he definitely struggled a lot but again it wasn't his Fight, it was Whole Crew fighting

He fought Kuma after the whole Thriller Bark Battle, everyone was very exhausted & at their limits, and he basically didn't lose, he avoided the fight entirely once he knew he can't save his Captain from Kuma so he offered himself in return. In other words, Zoro didn't really lose, he simply met a far stronger opponent that he decided not to continue fighting

Kizaru wasn't a Fight, he was very injured & tired from Kuma's Injuries & Kizaru simply attacked him the moment he arrived

In Conclusion:

Zoro technically lost against Enel only & he refused to fight Kuma, aside from these Zoro never Lost a Fight & both those encounter don't meet the requirements meant from that Promise of Zoro since one he stopped fighting himself & the other one, it wasn't the fight entrusted to him, it wasn't his Job, it was simply a Common Enemy that only Luffy could counter among those present on the Island

"Zoro never broke his Promise to Luffy"
When it's "HIS" Job to handle someone in place of others, then he always wins
First of all, I have no problem with that statement from Zoro to Luffy. I love that moment. Secondly, no matter which translation you go with, Zoro never mentions "I will never lose in another sword-fight again!" or "I will never lose in another 1-on-1 again" or "I will never lose in a fight you've entrusted me again". He just plainly says "I won't ever lose again". Now I am perfectly fine and somehow agree with how you've interpreted that. That's how I like to interpret that as well. But that's just it, an interpretation, for us to be able to accept that line a little better. But somehow, when another similar scenario is made for Zoro post-TS, we are unable to do the same and instead say that Oda is betraying Zoro's characterization. That's exactly what I'm trying to point out.
Post automatically merged:

Has Zoro lied though? Has Zoro lost a sword fight since?
OK I'm just gonna go ahead and paste my response to the other guy since it applies here.

First of all, I have no problem with that statement from Zoro to Luffy. I love that moment. Secondly, no matter which translation you go with, Zoro never mentions "I will never lose in another sword-fight again!" or "I will never lose in another 1-on-1 again" or "I will never lose in a fight you've entrusted me again". He just plainly says "I won't ever lose again". Now I am perfectly fine and somehow agree with how you've interpreted that. That's how I like to interpret that as well. But that's just it, an interpretation, for us to be able to accept that line a little better. But somehow, when another similar scenario is made for Zoro post-TS, we are unable to do the same and instead say that Oda is betraying Zoro's characterization. That's exactly what I'm trying to point out.
Post automatically merged:

@Boy_Sabaw

0 times.

Losing a fight implies remaining unable to move after receiving the final strike. These characteristics never fully concretized since the time he had sworn his promise of never losing again.
That happened to him after Enel and Kuma
 
#13
First of all - When the fuck did Zoro lose a fair fight, specialy against another swordman?
Second- Zoro says he is there to beat Kaido, and he is on the roof taking active part in that beating, wheres the lie here? And i dont think ZKK will be a thing because its pretty damn clear at this point that Oda dosent like killing characters, specialy when the SW's are the ones doing the killing, no opponent as of yet have been killed dosent matter how bad of a beating they give them.
 

Warchief Sanji D Goat

Queen Gunko!➡️⬆️⬇️⬅️
#14
Zoro stated that he won't lose in a sword fight again because that's his promise. He can still lose against the non-sword users and he did. What's matter is that Zoro grew from past mistakes and he swore to get stronger even if he have to throw his pride away (like begging his enemy Mihawk to train him for example) so that Zoro could achieve his dream.
 
#15
Lmao the amount of excuses yall are making for Zoro.


The dude said " I will never lose again"

Heres the SP translation



Since then hes lost multiple times. Hes never ever mentioned it being about sword fights at all. The whole point is about him not losing to someone hes fighting.

"Buh....buh....they werent his opponents"



Seems like his opponent to me.
 
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