Powers & Abilities General CoA Discussion - Basic & Advanced
- Thread starter Gol D. Roger
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yeah i found this on wiki
and there is the chapter
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/One-Piece-chapter-681-page-11.html
and there is the chapter
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/One-Piece-chapter-681-page-11.html
Did i mention Zoro
Latent Zoro-bringer here?
Luffy got VoAT and CoC and AdCoA and CoO is because he's MC and has gigantic plot armour. That's a fact. You can find another "in-verse" explanation, but the fact remains.
Latent Zoro-bringer here?
Luffy got VoAT and CoC and AdCoA and CoO is because he's MC and has gigantic plot armour. That's a fact. You can find another "in-verse" explanation, but the fact remains.
So you guys believe that Hardening and Barrier are two separate trees or is Barrier a more advanced progression of hardening? We see that when Roger and Newgate use their Barrier Haki to clash, the blades are still drawn black as if hardening is a prerequisite to using barrier or are they just stacking hardening and barrier?
@HPsyche
I wonder if there's a connection between the ability Zoro used in Alabasta to cut what he wanted to cut, but not cut what he didn't want to cut...and the ability Hyo was teaching Luffy that he describes as a swordsman cutting what he wanted to cut and not cutting what he wanted to cut. Which he attributed to Ryuo (or Haki).
Even the same "mighty blade" (or gouken) term was used in both instances.
Surely there's nothing connecting the two, right?
I wonder if there's a connection between the ability Zoro used in Alabasta to cut what he wanted to cut, but not cut what he didn't want to cut...and the ability Hyo was teaching Luffy that he describes as a swordsman cutting what he wanted to cut and not cutting what he wanted to cut. Which he attributed to Ryuo (or Haki).
Even the same "mighty blade" (or gouken) term was used in both instances.
Surely there's nothing connecting the two, right?
Introduction
The idea flying attacks are not wind-based sounds absurd given that this is a common trope in series where superhuman strength is a thing - I agree with that sentiment.
However, I have reason to believe this, and if you're open to new ideas that are evidence based and not pure speculation, then stick around, otherwise, no problem, the idea on its face sounds silly and attention-whoring.
This will include information that is not very well known in the series regarding Swordsmanship and new detail regarding Zoro's attacks.
Context: Sandman_AP Retranslation & Chapter 939
Sandman_AP: In OP chapter 939, it’s revealed that Hyou was known as the Mighty Blade (豪剣). Actually this Mighty Blade term was already used in chapter 23, 195 and 467 . Zoro and Ryuma are classified as Mighty Blade type. Sadly, there is a translation inconsistency in official Viz version 😂
Thanks to Sandman_AP and Artur, they both elaborate on the significance of the word. They're both pointing out that the phrase "way of the sword" as shown in chapter 195 and "powerful fighter" as used in chapter 467 should be replaced with "Mighty Blade" which is the translation of the Japanese word known as Goken which is used in Chapter 939.What Does It Mean To Be a Mighty Blade(Goken)
The earliest recording of Mighty Blade (Goken) is recorded in Chapter 195. Zoro is talking about reaching the true way of the Sword/Mighty Blade however one wants to phrase it.
The Narrative
Zoro is faced with a colossal challenge. A new foe against whom his every swing, though powerful, is made redundant by the passive nature of the enemy's steely body. It doesn't take long before he's on the receiving end and we see Zoro buried under a pile of rubble.
Not only is his confidence buried, but his Swordsmanship has just hit a wall194 . He questions his swordsmanship; he trains harder than anyone; more dedicated than anyone and strives higher than anyone. These are surely recipes for success, but still, Zoro has realised he's lacking something.
...Master Fails to Cut Paper but Talks of Cutting Steel??
Zoro buried in rubble and almost being lulled into unconsciousness reconnects with a distant memory where he ecstatically requests the truth as to whether there are Swordsmen capable of cutting steel.
This scene holds so much significance. What we see here is pretty outstanding. On the surface, it seems like a blunder, and an embarrassing one at that. Zoro asks his master of men that can cut steel, and his master awkwardly responds by attempting to cut paper; the paper is still intact.
How is failure to cut paper in any way relating to cutting steel? In reality, his mentor was actually letting him in on to the answer and goal he strove towards.
A Blade that Cuts all that it Touches Isn't Really a Sword
In his state of stupor, a memory of Master Koshiro patiently chastising him surfaces stating what seems to be a riddle which is a paradoxical conundrum that for the life of him, he cannot decipher. Koshiro states:
- There are Swordsmen in this world who able to NOT cut anything.
- These Swordsmen also have the ability to cut through steel.
- A blade that just injures all it touches isn't really a sword.
What Koshiro is Saying & Doing?
In saying this, Koshiro also informs Zoro on the Pinnacle of Swordsmanship lies in being able to protect what one wishes and cut what one wishes. He shameless (in appearance) goes on to cut paper and fails to cut it.
Koshiro was actually giving Zoro the keys to the kingdom and the answer he wanted, but Zoro being too young was unable to comprehend his master was being literal.
His master was letting Zoro know that the Pinnacle of Swordsmanship is the ability to hit anything with a blade and choose whether it cuts or doesn't.
- By hitting paper with a sharp blade and failing to cut it, it proves that he (Master Koshiro) has reached this Pinnacle of Swordsmanship and subsequently has the power to convey his will into his blade; a blade that cannot cut anything but can also cut anything (steel in this case)
We see he used his blade to slash at a palm leaf, and what happened? It didn't get cut - one would think that a blade that sharp would cut the palm leaf and more so if it were with Haki; this is symbolic in literal terms as to what master Koshiro did in Zoro's youth in cutting that piece of paper attempt194 .
He then goes on to slice a rock which is far more durable and sturdier than the palm leaf, yet, he cuts it like a hot knife through butter.
He's replicated the exact feat his master did by failing to cut paper against the leaf. He's learnt to convey his will into his blade and has reached the Pinnacle of Swordsmanship which is why he's so confident in using one Sword to cut down Mr.1.
Conveyed
At this point, we see he now understands what his master was saying; the ability to not cut is the power to cut steel194&195 . It's exactly what his master was trying to teach him, a lesson in learning how to convey one's will into the blade which is why he called it a blade that can cut, but not cut at the same time; it's mastery over one's blade.
Furthermore, on recognising this power, he begins to master the art of slipping into this state in order to utilise this power like Koshiro who can use this ability at will which is shown by his failure (or success rather) to not cut the paper despite hitting it implying it's something Swordsman of high calibre should be capable of utilising.
BOAT (Breath Of All Things)/Goken Principle
What exactly is it? If we look at the panel in the above subtitle, it tells us that he's experienced this "breath of all things" state saying it's like the boundary between life and death. His senses got heightened when he's at death's door and the main focus is on the part where he says.. "my blade understands my will" which is referring to his new-found ability to project his intentions into his blade.
I think the point being made is that in order to control and convey one's will to their blade, one need to be able to get into this "breath of all things" state, or it's impossible. Whilst in this state, his senses are sharpened, his instincts are elevated , he becomes hypersensitive and aware of his surroundings which astonishes his opponent and the power and technique of his attacks are enhanced as a result.
By the end of his bout with Mr.1, Zoro begins to train to slip into this state to draw on the power anytime he wills it213.
Zoro Trains To Master Goken Principle/BOAT
As Zoro says, the ability to convey his will into his blade requires an extreme level of concentration that's so powerful he was able to perceive where the rocks would fall, where his Sword was and such which startled Mr.1195.
Ryuma a Goken pre-skip, but Zoro too?
As even Artur realised THANKS TO SANDMAN_AP, Goken is not Haki, but a Sword Technique for conveying wills into blades/weapons. As the image states, Ryuma is considered to be a Goken as stated by Brook, but do you know who else was called a Goken like Ryuma? Zoro, but why was he called a Goken like Ryuma?
In the scene where Sandman_AP translates what was lost, Ryuma was called a Goken/Mighty Blade467. This is the full scene, it calls Ryuma a Goken, but then, Zoro is called a Goken too467.
Why are both called Goken Types 467? Because both were capable of projecting their slashes, or rather, conveying their wills into their blades given that wills is the source of the power of a Goken. A Goken is more or less someone capable of conveying their will into their blade and this ability allows one to project attacks from distances.
Zoro's Next Use of the Goken Principle/BOAT after Alabasta: Skypiea
Zoro has learnt to convey his will into his blade through intense concentration. He conveys into his blade that it's a Cannon that fires blasts. Thus why he's able to convey to his Sword that it's a Cannon, and thus the first flying slash is executed.
It makes sense that Zoro has the mantra like he's psyching himself up like with the weird utterance of his Sword being like a Canon and most likely to augment whatever strength of will he's harnessing to focus and perform said technique.
Source of Asura and Similar Powers?
When Zoro first performed Asura, Kaku attributed Asura to Sheer Willpower; the fact the will is referenced here leads one to assuming Asura is something developed through his talent as Goken and conveying his will.
Not only do we have instances where Zoro appears to have transformed to a demon, he's also able to perform attacks where he appears bestial where he takes on the form of a Gorillar or Cheetah.
Zoro's Flying Attack Names Translated to English
If you go to the Wikia and find the translation of Zoro's flying attacks, I believe they all end with the word Cannon. He tends to chant these mantras like he's psyching himself up that his Sword is a Cannon, but it seems to just be conveying his will into his blade with these mantras.
- Hyakuhachi Pound Ho (百八煩悩ポンド鳳 Hyakuhachi Pondo Hō?, kanji meaning "Feng of 108 Kleshas"; furigana meaning "108 Pound Phoenix/Cannon")
- Senhachiju Pound Ho (千八十煩悩ポンド鳳 Senhachijū Pondo Hō?, literally meaning "1080 Pound Cannon")
- Kokujo: O Tatsumaki (黒縄・大龍巻 Kokujō: Ō Tatsu Maki?, literally meaning "Kalasutra: Great Dragon Twister")
- Ul-Tora Gari (極虎狩りウルトラがり Uru Tora Gari?, literally meaning "Extreme/Polar Tiger Hunting"
Conclusion
Anyone who read this far, thanks. This is just my opinion, could well be wrong, but I'm certain given that I think I have more than sufficient evidence for this stance.
A Goken is a master swordsman, someone that is able to convey their wills into their blades and their swordsmanship which expresses itself as a tremendous form of power.
Flying Attacks and Zoro's ability to project entities like the auras and Asura are all based on his ability to convey his will through conveying his will (BOAT) as a Goken (Master Swordsman).
I think this is also the case for other Swordsmen, but I guess Zoro's pretty exceptional and would expect other formidable Swordsmen to have similar skill.
Goken is the ability to convey a a will into a blade; Ryuma was said to be a Goken by Brook who was neither a Haki user nor knew about Haki. So, Goken/BOAT is not Haki. Zoro was also said to be a Goken, so he wasn't a Haki user.
It's just what readers do, anything they don't understand, they call Haki.
It's just what readers do, anything they don't understand, they call Haki.
Actually, it was never attributed to Haki. It's combined with Haki.
The technique to cut and not cut = Goken/Boat
Hyou was saying if you combine the ability to convey one's will into a weapon (usually a sword), but into Haki, one can move their Haki concentrate it to emulate the barrier pushing technnique we see and other advanced Haki technique.
It's no different to seeing a Rokushiki technique powered by Haki, it doesn't make it Haki, it's just Rokoshuki combined with Haki. Combination of 2 different techniques in essence.
Never said it was Haki, this is due to misreading and misunderstanding by most readers.
The technique to cut and not cut = Goken/Boat
Hyou was saying if you combine the ability to convey one's will into a weapon (usually a sword), but into Haki, one can move their Haki concentrate it to emulate the barrier pushing technnique we see and other advanced Haki technique.
It's no different to seeing a Rokushiki technique powered by Haki, it doesn't make it Haki, it's just Rokoshuki combined with Haki. Combination of 2 different techniques in essence.
Never said it was Haki, this is due to misreading and misunderstanding by most readers.
Wrong.
Luffy just couldn't discern it.
Of course it does.
When Luffy didn't understand Haki in chapter 504, he couldn't discern Haki and Rayleigh's hands aren't black.
Post-skip, they are because Haki can be discerned.
It's not a literal colour, it's a visual aid.
As the manga said which you'd hvae to be in denial of, Haki is invisible as stated by Rayleigh.
And as stated by Hyo.
Luffy just couldn't discern it.
Of course it does.
When Luffy didn't understand Haki in chapter 504, he couldn't discern Haki and Rayleigh's hands aren't black.
Post-skip, they are because Haki can be discerned.
It's not a literal colour, it's a visual aid.
As the manga said which you'd hvae to be in denial of, Haki is invisible as stated by Rayleigh.
And as stated by Hyo.
Okay, just to simplify things for you.
A sentence can talk about 2 things. Apparently, most readers don't know something that's learnt in elementary school, e.g. I like cars and I like eggs = a sentence saying 2 things or talking about 2 different topics being cars and eggs.
Invisible thing spoken about = Haki.
Cut or not Cut = Goken/Boat.
It's not complicated.
And nope, the power to cut or not cut is not Ryou, that's Goken/Boat.
You read carefully, he simply said the invisible power (Haki) that Luffy was using is called Ryou in Wano. Not that Ryou is the power to cut or not cut.
No different to how in English and French... Cheese = Fromage. Not that Cheese and Fromage are 2 different things. Ryou is just Haki in Wano's native language and it's called Haki in other places.
As Sandman and Ohara said, Ryuma is a Goken. Brook called him a Goken. Brook didn't know about Haki, so he can't be calling Ryuma and Zoro pre-skip Haki users. Goken/BOAT is just the ability to project will or desire into weapons. And in Hyou's case, he's saying Will or Desire can be projected into Haki, not just Swords.
A sentence can talk about 2 things. Apparently, most readers don't know something that's learnt in elementary school, e.g. I like cars and I like eggs = a sentence saying 2 things or talking about 2 different topics being cars and eggs.
Invisible thing spoken about = Haki.
Cut or not Cut = Goken/Boat.
It's not complicated.
And nope, the power to cut or not cut is not Ryou, that's Goken/Boat.
You read carefully, he simply said the invisible power (Haki) that Luffy was using is called Ryou in Wano. Not that Ryou is the power to cut or not cut.
No different to how in English and French... Cheese = Fromage. Not that Cheese and Fromage are 2 different things. Ryou is just Haki in Wano's native language and it's called Haki in other places.
As Sandman and Ohara said, Ryuma is a Goken. Brook called him a Goken. Brook didn't know about Haki, so he can't be calling Ryuma and Zoro pre-skip Haki users. Goken/BOAT is just the ability to project will or desire into weapons. And in Hyou's case, he's saying Will or Desire can be projected into Haki, not just Swords.
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Haki is simply a power that people latently have.
It's not WIll power.
If you read Wano... Luffy is in Kairoseki which disables the use of Haki.
Luffy's still said to have willpower because he's able to move and fight despite Kairoseki.
If Haki was willpower, then Luffy would be able to use Haki regardless of Kairoseki.
By your logic, since Haki is "willpower", then Luffy should have no willpower. He however still has willpower because he's moving vigorously even though he shouldn't be able to move much. He shouldn't have the desire to fight Kaido if he had no willpower, but he wants to fight Kaido and is being antagonistic which indicates he has willpower.
Readers often make a mistake and that's assume things without EVIDENCE.
It says Haki CAN... not that it means.
Can doesn't mean something is, it just means possibly is.
Wiki never said it is willpower, they just said it Can.
It can also mean Ambition, not that it means ambition.
It can mean Spirit, not that it means spirit.
Wiki actually never tells us what Haki means.
The only fact we know is Haki is a power. And we know it's not willpower because Luffy always has willpower. Willpower is not something that can be switched off. Will power is just the ability to do something even when it's difficult e.g. Kairoseki makes you physically weak less active, however, Luffy can remain incredibly active because he has the willpower to push himself.
If Haki was willpower, Haki would never deplete. Haki depletes.
Luffy couldn't use Haki against Joker or Katakuri because he depleted it. Did he lose the willpower to defeat Joker or Katakuri at any point? Nope, he simply lost Haki.
Haki is just something that is finite super power. Simple as that.
It's not WIll power.
If you read Wano... Luffy is in Kairoseki which disables the use of Haki.
Luffy's still said to have willpower because he's able to move and fight despite Kairoseki.
If Haki was willpower, then Luffy would be able to use Haki regardless of Kairoseki.
By your logic, since Haki is "willpower", then Luffy should have no willpower. He however still has willpower because he's moving vigorously even though he shouldn't be able to move much. He shouldn't have the desire to fight Kaido if he had no willpower, but he wants to fight Kaido and is being antagonistic which indicates he has willpower.
Readers often make a mistake and that's assume things without EVIDENCE.
It says Haki CAN... not that it means.
Can doesn't mean something is, it just means possibly is.
Wiki never said it is willpower, they just said it Can.
It can also mean Ambition, not that it means ambition.
It can mean Spirit, not that it means spirit.
Wiki actually never tells us what Haki means.
The only fact we know is Haki is a power. And we know it's not willpower because Luffy always has willpower. Willpower is not something that can be switched off. Will power is just the ability to do something even when it's difficult e.g. Kairoseki makes you physically weak less active, however, Luffy can remain incredibly active because he has the willpower to push himself.
If Haki was willpower, Haki would never deplete. Haki depletes.
Luffy couldn't use Haki against Joker or Katakuri because he depleted it. Did he lose the willpower to defeat Joker or Katakuri at any point? Nope, he simply lost Haki.
Haki is just something that is finite super power. Simple as that.