Powers & Abilities So does everyone agree Enma not a power up now.

[Jew D. Boy]

I disagree partially.
It boils down to whether you consider a power-up as something that comes immediately. I personally don't, for me a power-up is simply something that makes a person stronger. A power-up can be obtained throught training like Luffy's gears or in this case, Enma's taming. That doesn't make it cheap or easy. Every kind of new power needs some sort of mastery, I think. Once Zoro tamed Enma, he will be stronger than he is now and it will be because of his own determination. Since he is stronger than before, it is a power-up.
When you say:

I can agree with you even if I consider Enma as a power-up, since its power is only fully obtained once Zoro mastered Enma. I also like the comparison you made between Enma and battleing an opponent. Fights also seem to be a way in wich power-ups can be obtained (see Luffy's future sight).

I’m also of the belief that anything - equipment like Enma/Raid Suit, or a move like Gear Fourth - that tangibly makes a person stronger constitutes a power up. You nailed it by saying that whatever allows you to draw more power (even if that only comes after mastering the tool by which you can do so) still qualifies; I see where you’re coming from, @Chessaddict, in that Enma first presents as a challenge to overcome, but even by that logic, Zoro rising to meet said obstacle still qualifies this as a power up. The difference is that the power is obtained through the process, not as an end that justifies the means.

 

[trav]

@Poque @Jew D. Boy
semantics

if a character becomes stronger by training then that character powered up.
if a character receives an item or ability that does not require training then that character received a power up.

most DF are a direct power up. rarely anyone (fishmen maybe...) would become weaker if they ate a logia, for example.
a sword on the other hand is only a powerup if its grade is greater than the one it replaced.

Gears can be argued either way. I do not consider a thought process as training. simply thinking up a concept that increases your ability is a power up in my eyes.
as you can see, the lines get blurry sometimes, but in Enmas case they are crystal clear.
Enma by itself gives Zoro nothing.
only through training is he able to properly weild the sword. its a treadmill so to say.

 

[Just a member]

The feat of Enma is that you must have a great haki control in order to use it properly (otherwise you have it ucking up all your haki and leaving you unconscious like every swordsman in Wano, not named Oden, who tried to control it before Zoro). Is it even stated somewhere that this sword is better than Ryuma's Shusui in power etc.? If anything it was Shusui which was already a perma black blade some sort of power up even if, if we look a bit deeper, we know that it is not a real power up either cause every sword chooses the swordsman in its own way:

The kitetsu choosed Zoro through a "luck" trial when he challenged it in the shop in Logue town.

About the Wado we don't know about any trial but that is the sword of the promise, imo it accepted to be used by Zoro given Kuina, her end and Zoro's promise, maybe Kyoshiro's will to give it to Zoro played a bit as well.

Shusui was used by his former master Ryuma and it is Ryuma who gives it to Zoro.at the end of the fight so the sword accepts it.

Enma now has no ties with Zoro, it his Oden's daughter to give it to Zoro but this sword requores a.new kind of trial which is the coa one we have seen.

About lesser swords there is just probably now will in them or something loke that. Ot wpuld be interesting how other swordsmans aquired their swords in OP world. Then there is Luffy and his kitetsu.. I don't know about that, was simply that Luffy's luck was above the sword curse as well even if he didn't even tried it lile Zoro did, furthermore Luffy treated it as a toy and a cursed sword of the family of Kitetsu should have bite back.. Then there was no progression on that story line with Zoro and the other kitetsu at elast until now..

 

[Jew D. Boy]

@Poque @Jew D. Boy
semantics

if a character becomes stronger by training then that character powered up.
if a character receives an item or ability that does not require training then that character received a power up.

most DF are a direct power up. rarely anyone (fishmen maybe...) would become weaker if they ate a logia, for example.
a sword on the other hand is only a powerup if its grade is greater than the one it replaced.

Gears can be argued either way. I do not consider a thought process as training. simply thinking up a concept that increases your ability is a power up in my eyes.
as you can see, the lines get blurry sometimes, but in Enmas case they are crystal clear.
Enma by itself gives Zoro nothing.
only through training is he able to properly weild the sword. its a treadmill so to say.

The whole idea is semantics...splitting hairs over the methods to increasing your strength when the end result is the same no matter what.

Your very first point is confusing - so training is a power up AND receiving an item is one too? So Zoro receiving Enma AND learning how to master it is TWO power ups by your own logic...trying to discern the difference feels more like semantics to me than anything.

DFs are just like weapons, you still have to learn how to wield them before you can reasonably be said to have become stronger. Again, we’re nitpicking a concept that’s possibly too broad by itself...but in my eyes, ANYTHING that leads to a character gaining strength or a certain ability is in itself a power up.

 

[HA001]

Whats the power up ? What can he do now he couldn't do before or with shusui ?
If its simply getting stronger through training he trains every day are we saying he has power ups every day now ?

 

[Poque]

@Poque @Jew D. Boy
semantics

It is indeed semantics. If we discuss whether something is X (in this case X= power up), we need to define X first. That definition is up for semantics. If you consider this to be the definition to be a power-up:

@Poque @Jew D. Boy
a character receives an item or ability that does not require training then that character received a power up

then, you argument makes sense, but that is also the result of semantics, just like my and @Jew D. Boy 's argument.

To me a power-up is something that upscales someonse power : a literal interpretation of the word power-up
If to you a power-up is something that doesn't requires training, than that's fine, though I would like to know how you came to that definition or interpretation.

 

[Chessaddict]

I just wanted to say first:yes,semantic matters.And second:

Zoro tamed Enma, he will be stronger than he is now and it will be because of his own determination

While it is perceivable that the end result of zoro obtaining Enma is that he gets stronger,it is still just a speculation.At this point in time,nothing has indicated that possibility other than zoro claiming so.
What i am trying to say is that you guys based your answer on your expectation,rather than on clues and evidence.
Ps:I am aware that zoro will 100% gets stronger,for sure.The reason why i said so is because theorizing about something is just not as fun when you are already expecting the result.

 

[Poque]

I just wanted to say first:yes,semantic matters.And second:

While it is perceivable that the end result of zoro obtaining Enma is that he gets stronger,it is still just a speculation.At this point in time,nothing has indicated that possibility other than zoro claiming so.
What i am trying to say is that you guys based your answer on your expectation,rather than on clues and evidence.
Ps:I am aware that zoro will 100% gets stronger,for sure.The reason why i said so is because theorizing about something is just not as fun when you are already expecting the result.

That's actually a very good point, I do think however that Zoro proclaiming that he will get stronger is in fact a clue or evidence for our expectation. Another clue is that Zoro's charachter arc is about him becoming stronger and thus the WSS. If obtaining Enma doesn't play a role in his strenght development, its inclusion would make no sense in the narrative of his character development. The expectation of him getting stronger is a reasonable one based on these factors.

If Enma doesn't play a role in Zoro becoming stronger, than why would the author include it?

 

[Ravagerblade]

All I know is Hiyori should get her sword back. And Get Momo's. I want to see her two sword style it.

As for Enma being a power up, I think so. Can Zoro do what he can with it than what he can without it. And if so, is it easier or not, if yes then you have your answer.

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

Can Zoro do what he can with it than what he can without it.

Yes. Zoro can do every technique with which ever sword he chooses.

Like have you seen anywhere that there's a technique he can't do with Sandai Kitetsu which he can only with Wado Ichimonji?

This is exactly the same as Oden cutting kaido with both Enma and Ame no habikiri. Like if Oden can use whichever sword then why does Zoro have to be restricted

 

[Longleg Larry]

It’s absolutely not a power up visually speaking

He gave up that insanely awesome slick black sword for another ordinary pink handled sword. LAME.

 

[Ravagerblade]

Yes. Zoro can do every technique with which ever sword he chooses.

Like have you seen anywhere that there's a technique he can't do with Sandai Kitetsu which he can only with Wado Ichimonji?

This is exactly the same as Oden cutting kaido with both Enma and Ame no habikiri. Like if Oden can use whichever sword then why does Zoro have to be restricted

He can do every technique but is the power upped? Or not? If so then it is.
You can do whatever technique you want the question is whether or not the power is higher or lower or the same.

 

[Lunaria]

Of course it's a power up since it helps him get stronger. It doesn't matter if it's a direct or indirect PU, that's a technicality. It's like saying Room of Spirit and Time in DB is not a power up.

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

He can do every technique but is the power upped? Or not? If so then it is.
You can do whatever technique you want the question is whether or not the power is higher or lower or the same.

He cut Hody Jones while he was near drowning using Shishi sonson and using Sandai Kitetsu.

Like it would be ridiculous if Zoro somehow chose a weaker version of the same technique while he was about to drown while fighting a Steroid Fishman.

The story has never indicated that Zoro techniques require specific swords. Like in Alabasta Zoro picks up Wado Ichimonji because it was the closest sword. Then he cuts steel. Then in Skypiea he uses wind slashes FROM ALL THREE SWORDS to cut steel. So just jumping from one arc to another it's very clear Zoro can do everything he does with Wado with every other sword. And remember Wado was one rank above Yubashiri and two ranks above Shusui and yet it Skypiea they all do the same thing.

Once again, Oden cut Kaido with both Enma and Ame no habikiri. So its very obvious that cutting kaido was a power Oden has not whichever sword he's using.

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

Of course it's a power up since it helps him get stronger. It doesn't matter if it's a direct or indirect PU, that's a technicality. It's like saying Room of Spirit and Time in DB is not a power up.

Is Enma a power up for Zoro? Or I'd the training Zoro does to tame Enma the power up?
In the same Vein, Is Hyogoro a power up for Luffy too then? Or is it the training Hyogoro gives Luffy that's the power up?

 

[Ravagerblade]

He cut Hody Jones while he was near drowning using Shishi sonson and using Sandai Kitetsu.

Like it would be ridiculous if Zoro somehow chose a weaker version of the same technique while he was about to drown while fighting a Steroid Fishman.

The story has never indicated that Zoro techniques require specific swords. Like in Alabasta Zoro picks up Wado Ichimonji because it was the closest sword. Then he cuts steel. Then in Skypiea he uses wind slashes FROM ALL THREE SWORDS to cut steel. So just jumping from one arc to another it's very clear Zoro can do everything he does with Wado with every other sword. And remember Wado was one rank above Yubashiri and two ranks above Shusui and yet it Skypiea they all do the same thing.

Once again, Oden cut Kaido with both Enma and Ame no habikiri. So its very obvious that cutting kaido was a power Oden has not whichever sword he's using.

I'm talking about strength of a technique. Not if he could use it or not.

 

[Lunaria]

Is Enma a power up for Zoro? Or I'd the training Zoro does to tame Enma the power up?
In the same Vein, Is Hyogoro a power up for Luffy too then? Or is it the training Hyogoro gives Luffy that's the power up?

Does Luffy use Hyogoro's body to attack his opponents ?

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

I'm talking about strength of a technique. Not if he could use it or not.

Yes Zoro learned how to cut steel in alabasta. That's a general technique he added to his arsenal.

Then in Skypiea he used all three swords, all of which are different ranks, and he cut steel again.

Like the one thing that's clear in the story is that higher tier swords do more wanton damage than lower tier swords. Note the word "WANTON"

Sandai Kitetsu was forcing Zoro to cut people too hard in Whiskey peak

Shusui was too heavy and Zoro accidentally created a bigger slash than he wanted to in Thriller bark and failed to execute 108 canon yet that's a move he literally pulled off the very first time he tried it in Skypiea

Enma causes Zoro to use to much Haki than he wanted to use.

The through line with all these swords is that when Zoro doesnt know what he's doing, the swords end up forcing him to use too much of his energy or do whatever the hell they want like suck him dry of haki. That's always true since chapter 115 back in Whiskey peak.

And what's also always true is that when Zoro masters the sword, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER. Zoro gets stronger from mastering difficult swords. That strengh Zoro achieves from mastery DOESN'T DISAPPEAR when moving from one sword to another.

I'll repeat this until you acknowledge it. Oden used both swords to cut Kaido. So its oden who does the cutting. Not a specific sword

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

Does Luffy use Hyogoro's body to attack his opponents ?

But Shusui did that too didn't it? Zoro replaced a 21 grade sword with another 21 grade sword. How is that a power up?

The only difference is that Enma strains Zoro haki. And when Zoro masters Enma, he stops it from Draining his haki. Done. Enma is now normal 21 grade sword. Where is the power up?

 

[Lunaria]

But Shusui did that too didn't it? Zoro replaced a 21 grade sword with another 21 grade sword. How is that a power up?

The only difference is that Enma strains Zoro haki. And when Zoro masters Enma, he stops it from Draining his haki. Done. Enma is now normal 21 grade sword. Where is the power up?

It's a means of becoming stronger, Zoro stated it, so I consider it a PU. I don't think it's necessary to overthink this.