Character Discussion So Sanji's emotions didn't make him stronger. Now, does that mean that Judge was right all along? Please explain!

[Celestial D. Dragon]

No, it was established that Kuma hurt Sanji's foot already. Multiple kicks to a pacifista would eventually be too much to take.

I don't see that being the case. First you have to connect two scenarios from two different arcs, and second the wording and highlighting of Diable Jambe in the scene gives no indication to even think back to a previous arc to begin with.

It's "I can't do this much longer", with Diable Jambe being highlighted. That's a pretty weird way to try and invoke a callback to when he fought Kuma on Thriller Bark.

 

[Screws Loose242]

Sanji story line is was set up so great by oda I can see how you don't see it & Sanji has accomplish so much on his own without the help of his family why try & down grade it but Sanji is a Germa 66 everything that's happening now to him has been hinted at back at wci it's great writing by oda & makes perfect sense, & it's the person that makes the weapon what they are,

 

[Courier]

I'm here to remind you all about the prophecy again

Sanji will become mythical fiery bird not following the order . Even zoro fans will become sanji fans

 

[Pan D. A. Man]

I've been trying to "hammer" this point on for months at this point, but it seems like Oda can't really grasp the "severity" of the situation with Sanji's character writing, he simply cannot see the bigger picture behind his narrative. Sanji is the only one who has his emotions intact amongst Judge's children, yes, Reiju was kind towards Sanji but her emotions aren't intact, unlike in case of Sanji, and Judge tried to erase his children's emotions because he thought that emotions are weaknesses–and only by erasing them you can become strong. And throughout post-timskip one piece, AND SPICEFICLY POST-TIMSKIP ONE PIECE, where Sanji's Germa plot line has been revealed, Sanji's emotions never played any role in his success, as matter of fact, they were behind Sanji's humiliations and most miserable failures. It was because of Sanji's emotions that Sanji: Lost to Judge, got manipulated and used by his family, attacked his own captain, put his friends in a very dangerous position etc. And now, in the battle against Queen when Sanji has the opportunity to achieve a success thanks to his emotions, thanks to his willpower and the desire to protect his loved ones... HE JUST AWAKENS THE GERMA GENES THANKS TO THE RAID SUIT!!!

Sanji's plot line has been developed so poorly, that at the and of that plot line, it turns out that Judge was right all along. How could Oda f*ck this up soooooooooooooooooo badly? How? What was he thinking?

How the fu*king hell he failed to see that GIANT hole in his own narrative?
Please, sobody, explain to me how this happened, how could an established author do such a horrendous mistake???

Spoiler

@Queen
@Zoro
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@Celestial D. Dragon

It still by his own abilities he got power though as growing up, he didn't have these powers until training and still trains on his own like DJ, Haki, CP0, so saying everything was given by 'Judge' or RS isn't accurate and you missed the point about backstory as issues wasn't about Sora having children with powers, but making them 'monsters' and emotionless, if it was powers, then Sanji having abilities shown him as strong as monster, so that doesn't make sense. It was about emotion which been shown different between him and his family, not power as it shown he strongest one among them when he defeated Yonji easily even with his RS.

 

[RYNO]

why cant people wait and see whats goner happen in the rest of the fight or the rest the manga he may get a PU in another arc that is conected to his emotions or do people like looking idiots, when something is obviously goner happen (sanji getting another PU) in the future they just look like impatient idoit hater.

 

[Finalbeta]

It still by his own abilities he got power though as growing up, he didn't have these powers until training and still trains on his own like DJ, Haki, CP0, so saying everything was given by 'Judge' or RS isn't accurate and you missed the point about backstory as issues wasn't about Sora having children with powers, but making them 'monsters' and emotionless, if it was powers, then Sanji having abilities shown him as strong as monster, so that doesn't make sense. It was about emotion which been shown different between him and his family, not power as it shown he strongest one among them when he defeated Yonji easily even with his RS.

It's called plot armor. He does possess the powers but Oda makes sure he manages to get through, like it partially occurred with Reiju, this time things even better.

It doesn't even have to make so much sense.

 

[Monster Luffy]

why cant people wait and see whats goner happen in the rest of the fight or the rest the manga he may get a PU in another arc that is conected to his emotions or do people like looking idiots, when something is obviously goner happen (sanji getting another PU) in the future they just look like impatient idoit hater.

They look like idiots and blame Oda for 'making' them look like an idiots.

 

[duckman]

I don't see that being the case. First you have to connect two scenarios from two different arcs, and second the wording and highlighting of Diable Jambe in the scene gives no indication to even think back to a previous arc to begin with.

It's "I can't do this much longer", with Diable Jambe being highlighted. That's a pretty weird way to try and invoke a callback to when he fought Kuma on Thriller Bark.

One Piece chapter 484 released in January of 2008.
One Piece chapter 512 released in September of 2008.
It's a bit disingenuous to argue that effectively the distance between Luffy hitting Kaido and Robin vs Black Maria is "too much" for people to keep track of.

Plus, an alternate translation, which the anime and dub share as well. its been established that Sanji is hurt by kicking Kuma, so this references that. It has not been established that Diable Jambe hurts Sanji, so this reading would come from nowhere.

 

[Master OF Haki]

Or Oda doesn't measure the value of his characters based solely on the victories they achieve through fighting, like the fandom does. 400+ chapters into the New World, with proper fights being just a drop in the bucket throughout all this, pretty much tells us all we need to know.

I assume you don't know the context of this specific post of mine. I didn't start this thread for power scaling purposes, it's just when people have no arguments they go off road, and the conversation eventually–as it always ends up–was drugged to the power scaling field. I don't believe in power scaling, as I've said it many times already, power levels don't exist in post-timskip. The issue at hand, is that Oda failed to see the astronomical problem with the narrative that he was pushing with Sanji. The entire argument is the thread, here read it for yourself: 👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇

I've been trying to "hammer" this point on for months at this point, but it seems like Oda can't really grasp the "severity" of the situation with Sanji's character writing, he simply cannot see the bigger picture behind his narrative. Sanji is the only one who has his emotions intact amongst Judge's children, yes, Reiju was kind towards Sanji but her emotions aren't intact, unlike in case of Sanji, and Judge tried to erase his children's emotions because he thought that emotions are weaknesses–and only by erasing them you can become strong. And throughout post-timskip one piece, AND SPICEFICLY POST-TIMSKIP ONE PIECE, where Sanji's Germa plot line has been revealed, Sanji's emotions never played any role in his success, as matter of fact, they were behind Sanji's humiliations and most miserable failures. It was because of Sanji's emotions that Sanji: Lost to Judge, got manipulated and used by his family, attacked his own captain, put his friends in a very dangerous position etc. And now, in the battle against Queen when Sanji has the opportunity to achieve a success thanks to his emotions, thanks to his willpower and the desire to protect his loved ones... HE JUST AWAKENS THE GERMA GENES THANKS TO THE RAID SUIT!!!

Sanji's plot line has been developed so poorly, that at the and of that plot line, it turns out that Judge was right all along. How could Oda f*ck this up soooooooooooooooooo badly? How? What was he thinking?

How the fu*king hell he failed to see that GIANT hole in his own narrative?
Please, sobody, explain to me how this happened, how could an established author do such a horrendous mistake???

Spoiler

@Queen
@Zoro
@Van
@playa4321
@Celestia
@Grumpy Zoro
@Ice devil slayer
@KiriNigiri
@Veljko2000
@rednose
@Winsmoke Sanji
@Monet
@Veku
@BigChungus2018
@Crooc
@Reborn
@BossYimz
@Robin swan
@gojo
@Fenaker
@PuckTheGreat
@RayanOO
@ShishioIsBack
@Orojackson Refugee
@Greenbeard
@Dragomir
@Sword God Ryuma
@Sentinel
@IceWitch
@Himura
@DarkWitch
@stormylife
@Mr. Anderson
@yunzabit heights
@Monster trio
@Vonal
@Don DaSlayer
@Xione
@Master OF Haki
@Topi Jerami
@Yukihime
@bennbeckman
@Thabeast
@SaintBellkin
@SinOfGreed
@Zenos7
@Lucas
@JioFreed
@pedxi
@Zowo
@Luslec
@style
@Luffy is the mc
@Guymieux
@Mikail
@KINGKONGGUN15
@RyumaZoro
@worst pirate
@ZenZu
@LuffyMazino
@Im_not_Osama_bin_laden
@HAJIKATA
@Jackteo
@Tamerani
@Marimo_420
@Garp the Fist
@Kejon
@Fukki
@Flower
@Sunita
@RZ.119
@Sade
@Skiddo
@KageyamaShoyo
@Den_Den_Mushi
@Elcadar
@Finalbeta
@Bullet
@Dark Hound
@Patryipe
@Light D Lamperouge
@Enma
@Owl Ki
@ZoroIsOverrated
@ShinmenTakezo
@Jack
@Admiral Lee Hung
@Bogard
@Starbound Beast D. Draig
@Shiroyru
@Camie
@ShadyOjiro
@Benn beck
@SethTrollins
@MarimoHeado
@Foxy Bunny
@Bittersteel
@comrade
@Cyrus the Cactus
@OmegaPsyche
@SHIHI
@Zoro D Goat
@critical mindset
@kurwa
@WillOfMyD
@Jo_Ndule
@Reddot4
@Exodia.
@nik87
@Sakura no Hiluluk
@Usopp Haoshoku Haki
@Gambit
@Monkey D Theories
@TheAncientCenturion
@Haoshoku
@Geo
@Yo Tan Wa
@Izaya X
@Gon’s Missing Arm
@Albino 👑
@MasterD
@SmokedOut
@HeroesNZ
@Cinera
@Murilo
@Dark Knight Sanji
@Afroking
@Rosella.Fiamingo
@Chaves
@Rivaille
@Nidai_Kitetsu
@MonsterZoro
@Gol D. Roger
@Soleus
@Aknolagon
@Emperor Nami
@Constantine
@Gensui Sazid
@K!NG HARA$H!MA
@Hanzo hattori
@Buggy D Clown
@silverfire
@yorosenpai
@Tenshi No Konan
@Guan Yu
@Artorias
@Kiwipom
@zorojurou
@MD Zolo
@Brix
@Chrono
@HA001
@Sadistic Senpai
@bblue
@MarineHQ62
@KenshiraSonata
@Erkan12
@Buusatan94
@Celestial D. Dragon

Post automatically merged: Oct 11, 2021

how the hell is sanji supposed to know that just when he's about to attack judge.. judge will set up a wall of humans and pierce then in order to land a hit on...

Sanji could have done something if he had the speed or strong enough CoO, which was addressed in length in WCI where Sanji's family was making fun of him due to him being slow, and due to it Judge proved his point. Oda's grave mistake is that he failed to address the core issue at hand: Sanji's emotions should prove to be a source of strength, not weakness!

are you proving judges point that being an emotionless soldier is better for the reason you don't give mind to what you're attacks or even having a dreg of regret of what you're doing?

No, I'm saying that Oda uncoenceosly–or at least I hope that it wasn't deliberate–made Judge look right.

you can't always save everyone even Luffy says that what you can do is be less of a scum then your opposition.

if he didn't forsee judge pulling a grotesque move like that and use his human shield to catch sanji off guard.. how the hell is he supoosed to know what BS judge is up to.? and how tf do you know Luffy and zoro would be able to avoid their deaths if Luffy didn't use FS... plus this is unrelated to emotions not everyone has FS.. zoro won't be able to do shit about the soldiers as he gets caught off guard by judge piercing his way through them and attacking zoro

Again, that's not the point, I'm not saying that Sanji should save everyone or that Luffy or Zoro could, I'm saying that Oda failed to address the core issue.

so your point is oda makes sanji fail and make his emotions futile (which doesn't make sense idk what you're saying) just coz he hates him or likes zoro Luffy more... thats plain bs what are you even saying

I'm saying that Sanji should have had at least one major victory THANKS to his emotions and then go through with the Gerna plot, without that Oda made Judge look right.

you are only exclusively targeting sanji with emotions.. why not Luffy and zoro.. how has emotions helped them except for the drive to excel which sanji hadn't any different

Zoro and Luffy don't have Germa plot, it doesn't matter wether they fail because of their emotions or not. Again and again and again, it isn't the point, you're missing the point...

Post automatically merged: Oct 11, 2021

how the hell is sanji supposed to know that just when he's about to attack judge.. judge will set up a wall of humans and pierce then in order to land a hit on...

Sanji could have done something if he had the speed or strong enough CoO, which was addressed in length in WCI where Sanji's family was making fun of him due to him being slow, and due to it Judge proved his point. Oda's grave mistake is that he failed to address the core issue at hand: Sanji's emotions should prove to be a source of strength, not weakness!

are you proving judges point that being an emotionless soldier is better for the reason you don't give mind to what you're attacks or even having a dreg of regret of what you're doing?

No, I'm saying that Oda uncoenceosly–or at least I hope that it wasn't deliberate–made Judge look right.

you can't always save everyone even Luffy says that what you can do is be less of a scum then your opposition.

if he didn't forsee judge pulling a grotesque move like that and use his human shield to catch sanji off guard.. how the hell is he supoosed to know what BS judge is up to.? and how tf do you know Luffy and zoro would be able to avoid their deaths if Luffy didn't use FS... plus this is unrelated to emotions not everyone has FS.. zoro won't be able to do shit about the soldiers as he gets caught off guard by judge piercing his way through them and attacking zoro

Again, that's not the point, I'm not saying that Sanji should save everyone or that Luffy or Zoro could, I'm saying that Oda failed to address the core issue.

so your point is oda makes sanji fail and make his emotions futile (which doesn't make sense idk what you're saying) just coz he hates him or likes zoro Luffy more... thats plain bs what are you even saying

I'm saying that Sanji should have had at least one major victory THANKS to his emotions and then go through with the Gerna plot, without that Oda made Judge look right.

you are only exclusively targeting sanji with emotions.. why not Luffy and zoro.. how has emotions helped them except for the drive to excel which sanji hadn't any different

Zoro and Luffy don't have Germa plot, it doesn't matter wether they fail because of their emotions or not. Again and again and again, it isn't the point, you're missing the point...

 

[Chaves]

You should just wait for the fight to end.
The burning emotions (diable jambe) will still be Sanji's big triumph to win this fight.

Sanji's narrative is like the ugly duckling (which Oda made referenced), Sanji will become a ''swan'' after all.
The exoskeleton was made for Sanji's character development by accepting his inherent lineage and heroically spreading his Vinsmoke name to the world as Momo did. Accepting this bloodline because of its gentle nature of protecting the weaker

But at the end of it all, attack power is the real card to win this fight, Sanji hasn't received an UP yet, so diable jambe will evolve. And diable jambe is the real manifestation of Sanji's emotions

 

[Robin swan]

Oda's probably gonna give him both pu's. I highly doubt sanji will forget his emotions after having them for 21 years. They'd be like forgetting how to walk despite walking all your life.

 

[Celestial D. Dragon]

One Piece chapter 484 released in January of 2008.
One Piece chapter 512 released in September of 2008.
It's a bit disingenuous to argue that effectively the distance between Luffy hitting Kaido and Robin vs Black Maria is "too much" for people to keep track of.

Plus, an alternate translation, which the anime and dub share as well. its been established that Sanji is hurt by kicking Kuma, so this references that. It has not been established that Diable Jambe hurts Sanji, so this reading would come from nowhere.

I'm talking about how in that scene, Diable Jambe is being highlighted, which indicates that is where Oda is drawing the readers attention to. If Oda wanted to convey it's because of kicking the pacifista as a callback to Thriller Bark and kicking Kuma, there is plenty of other ways to convey that message. Best of which would be by disengaging Diable Jambe, before having Sanji make that statement, and then emphasizing the hardness of the Pacifista.

Plus it doesn't make any sense for an ability, where you are basically heating up your leg and bones to insane degrees to not cause some sort of damage to the body.

Of course people can make the argument that he's been using it all post skip with no drawbacks, but that can easily be explained away with CoA. By coating his legs, there is no risk of damaging the tissue and bones.

 

[duckman]

I'm talking about how in that scene, Diable Jambe is being highlighted, which indicates that is where Oda is drawing the readers attention to. If Oda wanted to convey it's because of kicking the pacifista as a callback to Thriller Bark and kicking Kuma, there is plenty of other ways to convey that message. Best of which would be by disengaging Diable Jambe, before having Sanji make that statement, and then emphasizing the hardness of the Pacifista.

Plus it doesn't make any sense for an ability, where you are basically heating up your leg and bones to insane degrees to not cause some sort of damage to the body.

Of course people can make the argument that he's been using it all post skip with no drawbacks, but that can easily be explained away with CoA. By coating his legs, there is no risk of damaging the tissue and bones.

His leg is being highlighted. His leg was hurt before by doing the same thing. Its a legitimate question a reader would have by saying "Hey, Sanii kicked this guy 10 months ago and was hurt"

 

[Finalbeta]

Imagine if Oda made a Sanji incapable to feel horniness when glimpsing a nice lady, how insane does this even sounds alone.

 

[Santoryu D Bazooka]

Indeed Sanji's kindness has its flaws. But still i will name 1 great example.

1- Punk Hazard > Kineamon the other SH wanted to leave the head there. who decided to take it upon himself to save him? Think about it without Kineamon what would have happened?

In the whole whole cake island situation. If sanji was not kind enough to care to go to the wedding then Germa would have already been killed off along with Zeff.

 

[Master OF Haki]

Indeed Sanji's kindness has its flaws. But still i will name 1 great example.

1- Punk Hazard > Kineamon the other SH wanted to leave the head there. who decided to take it upon himself to save him? Think about it without Kineamon what would have happened?

In the whole whole cake island situation. If sanji was not kind enough to care to go to the wedding then Germa would have already been killed off along with Zeff.

Gosh, why it's so hard to hammer the point in this community? Ok, listen: the issue starts from Judge's believes, Judge isn't against kindness for sake of brutality or heartlessness, Judge believes that a HUMAN being cannot become STRONG with EMOTIONS. Judge's ONLY issue with EMOTIONS is because of that believe, he doesn't have anything else against emotions or kindness, he just thinks that the Vinsmoke Dynasty cannot become strong with emotions, that's it. I hope I was able to explain this part...

Now, Sanji as Judge's ONLY child that has his emotions intact, had the opportunity to change his father's beliefs by not relying to his thecnolagy but rather to his KINDNESS to become stronger, why? Because humans' driving force is their LOVE AND COMPASSION towards each other. We, as HUMANS, are at our best when we fight for those we truly love. You know what would be an incredibly strong and memorable moment? If Sanji did something incredible in WCI and Judge asked "Sanji, tell me, why are you so strong? Where does your power come from?" And Sanji says only one word "Love" that would be the most powerful thing that Oda would have ever done, but unfortunately he didn't do that. Now we have a situation where Judge ended up being right.

 

[Santoryu D Bazooka]

Gosh, why it's so hard to hammer the point in this community? Ok, listen: the issue starts from Judge's believes, Judge isn't against kindness for sake of brutality or heartlessness, Judge believes that a HUMAN being cannot become STRONG with EMOTIONS. Judge's ONLY issue with EMOTIONS is because of that believe, he doesn't have anything else against emotions or kindness, he just thinks that the Vinsmoke Dynasty cannot become strong with emotions, that's it. I hope I was able to explain this part...

Now, Sanji as Judge's ONLY child that has his emotions intact, had the opportunity to change his father's beliefs by not relying to his thecnolagy but rather to his KINDNESS to become stronger, why? Because humans' driving force is their LOVE AND COMPASSION towards each other. We, as HUMANS, are at our best when we fight for those we truly love. You know what would be an incredibly strong and memorable moment? If Sanji did something incredible in WCI and Judge asked "Sanji, tell me, why are you so strong? Where does your power come from?" And Sanji says only one word "Love" that would be the most powerful thing that Oda would have ever done, but unfortunately he didn't do that. Now we have a situation where Judge ended up being right.

I totally get your point. but what i tried to say is maybe Oda didn't want to go to that route :-
"If Sanji did something incredible in WCI and Judge asked "Sanji, tell me, why are you so strong? Where does your power come from?" And Sanji says only one word "Love" <- This was used in so many stories and would have been so predictable and was overused in so many stories.

Judge ended up being right or was he? - The last scene between Sanji and Judge -

Here Oda just outright said "Sanji is weak" but "kindness emotion" is Power with no Display of Strength needed. Sanji saved everyone and everything in WCI and no one will know.

 

[duckman]

I totally get your point. but what i tried to say is maybe Oda didn't want to go to that route :-
"If Sanji did something incredible in WCI and Judge asked "Sanji, tell me, why are you so strong? Where does your power come from?" And Sanji says only one word "Love" <- This was used in so many stories and would have been so predictable and was overused in so many stories.

Judge ended up being right or was he? - The last scene between Sanji and Judge -

Here Oda just outright said "Sanji is weak" but "kindness emotion" is Power with no Display of Strength needed. Sanji saved everyone and everything in WCI and no one will know.

Here Oda just outright said "Sanji is weak"

You keep reading the wrong things.
Oda has outright said "Sanji is strong", several many, many, many times. Judge didn't even call him weak, he attacked his mindset.

 

[Weeman]

Gosh, why it's so hard to hammer the point in this community? Ok, listen: the issue starts from Judge's believes, Judge isn't against kindness for sake of brutality or heartlessness, Judge believes that a HUMAN being cannot become STRONG with EMOTIONS. Judge's ONLY issue with EMOTIONS is because of that believe, he doesn't have anything else against emotions or kindness, he just thinks that the Vinsmoke Dynasty cannot become strong with emotions, that's it. I hope I was able to explain this part...

Now, Sanji as Judge's ONLY child that has his emotions intact, had the opportunity to change his father's beliefs by not relying to his thecnolagy but rather to his KINDNESS to become stronger, why? Because humans' driving force is their LOVE AND COMPASSION towards each other. We, as HUMANS, are at our best when we fight for those we truly love. You know what would be an incredibly strong and memorable moment? If Sanji did something incredible in WCI and Judge asked "Sanji, tell me, why are you so strong? Where does your power come from?" And Sanji says only one word "Love" that would be the most powerful thing that Oda would have ever done, but unfortunately he didn't do that. Now we have a situation where Judge ended up being right.

Judge didn't end up being right, Sanji still has his emotions.
Having this new exsokleteon is clearly conflicting to Sanji and something he doesn't want, and it's still too early to see where it'll go.

Where Oda takes that plot thread we'll have to see, but you're acting as if Sanji had suddenly welcomed the Germa lineage and lost his emotions.

 

[Master OF Haki]

From another thread...

Sanji's emotions were useless in relation to the core issue. Sanji's humiliation from Fishman island to the Fight against Queen were done deliberately so that Oda could hammer the point that "Sanji needs the thecnolagy to move on," but by doing so Oda failed to address the point that Sanji doesn't need the technology because his source of power is his emotions, but he's willing to use that thecnolagy for sake of his friends.

If Oda established that Sanji doesn't need the raid suit or the Germa genes to become stronger, then Sanji accepting that thecnolagy and his Vinsmoke identity would have a much bigger impact. But now it's an absolute mess, now it seems like Sanji is FORCED to accept the technology because he's a failure, that his emotions didn't help him to grow during the timskip. It just ruins the whole narrative, again, Oda simply failed to address the core issue by REFUSING to give Sanji one success before him accepting the raid suit, which would show that Sanji doesn't need that because he's forced by his misery, but rather by finally coming to terms with his family. But the worst part from all of this, is that the powers the raid suit gives Sanji, are designed in such a way that they UNDERMINE all the abilities that he learned by himself, it's such a disgusting and nasty move by Oda that I doubt it was a simple MISTAKE in first place.