General & Others the swordsmen debate

J

Jo_Ndule

#241
#241
Mr. Anderson said:
Kaido wouldnt use hybrid if Oda wasnt ready to reveal it yet.

This is what trav tried to convey to you guys back in the discord. Oda will go to lengths to PIS fights in order not to reveal the full strength of characters.

Oda would never reveal Kaido's hybrid in a flashback lmao.

It's no different to what he's done to the main cast. He did the same shit to Luffy in PH and FI. To not reveal Luffy's full strength all at once he had him struggle against people he should have low/mid diffed in atleast a chapter. Instead of beating the Yeti brothers easily, Oda had Zoro get Ko'd by them.

Instead of showing the true might of the WSC he had Kaido stick to his beast form, because we reached the point in the story that supposed to expand on Kaido getting his scar. Not show off his strength. Not every fight that happens can be used to pl.

At the end of the day plot drives one piece lol. Its plot first and powerlevels second.
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The fact people really think Oden vs Kaido was a fight to use to gauge Kaido PL lol

Oda even preferred hyping and showing Oden being boiled more than Kaido vs Oden at castle or at the battlefield

It was basically Dragon Kaido just setting the place on fire with Oden fighting back.
Oden blown but replies back, kaido goes human form and wins cia distraction

That isnt even a real 1v1 fight at all. Just a quick one two hits clash that ended quickly.

Oda kept kaido hybrid form, even kept Base Kaido fighting Oden in that war.

As you said, Plot first then PL second.
 
J

Jo_Ndule

#242
#242
trav said:
you only feel this way because it does not agree with your personal opinion. which is bias at its core. I try to avoid this in most discussions, not just here.


Daz Bones tells Zoro that he should not think of him as a swordsman. not that I say he is not one in my eyes. you try to paint this is a black and white thing when nothing points toward that.
you are right in 1 thing. swordsman are what Oda decides they are, not you. thats the kicker here.


a moot point. also, again, a very biased one.
we rarely see people actively chasing or aiming for Luffys dream. I believe there are more swordsman to go arround than pirates actively chasing the One Piece.
having "less" (hardly measurable) opposition in his dream does not invalidate Zoros or Mihawks accomplishments. not a bit.


this is bias again.
cause there is no definition that fits. a character like Akainu could be referred to as a brawler, but that still would not describe his way of fighting. the guy is capable of launching a large amount of projectiles and rain fire down on his enemies. that is hardly hand to hand combat.
swordsman are clearly categorized for 1 reason only. this is the field Zoro is competing in. end of story.
Zoro is a swordsman and he wants to become the strongest in this category. so its paramount that we encounter people who are par of category. to pick up on your earlier point, there are countless of those already. no need to make everyone that.

you give swords more credit then any other type of weapon or fighting style.
that is the main problem I have with this debate and I addressed it multiple times.
that is the only reason I made this thread wether you want to believe this is not.
that is another problem entirely. you (and others) are so hellbound on the idea that everyone has some hidden agenda they follow. like trying to slight you are disagree just to piss you off in particular. maybe thats easier to stomache than being contradicted. maybe.
reality is I dislike inconsistent reasoning first and foremost.
if you allow swordsman to fight with w/e the so wish and they still remain swordsman in your eyes then you also have to allow other characters to use a swords and remain w/e they would classify (or not) themselves as.

as inconvenient as this thought may be to you. thats the gist of it.
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The problem is that people don't wanna accept that someone can be good at using a weapon/fighting style and not be Brawler/Swordman/etc...

Yet they can accept a swordman can brawl/kick and still remain swordman like Ray using his limbs as martial artists, Roger using a gun, ...
 
nik87

nik87

Kitetsu Wanker
‎
#243
#243
uyuu said:
weaker swordsman can use other weapons or powers that are superior to the WSS.
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What other weapons and powers will make them superior?
trav said:
why single out swords here?
if a swordsman carries a gun, hes still a swordsman. okay.
if a sniper is carrying a sword, he is a swordsman too? not okay.

this is what is boils down to.
that is a very hypocritical view imo.

if it is possible to never use actual sword skills at all (Law and Fujitora) while still being called a swordsman, then it should also be acceptable that people can carry swords without being a swordsman.
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Well, it's Oda who singled out swords and put them on pedestal that other weapons didnt get.
Do you know any sniper who carries a sword? Why cant they be both, sniper and a swordsman?
Is being a sniper preventing such character from being a swordsman?

Why would they not be swordsmen if a sword is a weapon of their choice? The only thing we can single out is Luffy picking up a sword just because Oda felt like drawing him with a sword for couple of panels because it's a theme of the arc...
If people want to call Roger a sniper, be my guest, however, that doesnt stop him from being a swordsman.
 
Monet

Monet

‎
#244
#244
Igmom is not swordman she is swordwoman :goyea:
..

All this debit is just to pull everystrong characters from under mihawk

:finally:
..
I still remeber before TS when sertain fans said that mihawk dosen't know haki

:myman:
 
Poque

Poque

‎
#246
#246
If someone fights with a sword, they're a swordsman.
If someone fights with their e.g. fists, they're a brawler.
If X fights with both their fists and a sword, they're a sword(wo)man and a brawler.
If X cannot even cut steel, but can throw punches at mountain level, they're still a (very weak) swords(wo)man and a (very strong) brawler.

If Mihawk would throw punches, he'd be a weaker brawler than, let's say, Luffy (this is not the main point, please don't start a Punching!Mihawk vs Luffy discussion). He'd still be stronger than Luffy overall though, since his main fighting style is swordmanship.

The title WSS comes down, imo, to which fighter can get the most strenght out of their swordmanship.
I think some abilities can be considered part of swordmanship, like Haki or new swords, since they simply change attack or damage, not the entire fighting style. A devil fruit would change the fighting style noticeably, like in Law's case. I think this used to be called the 'pure' swordmanship debate. Whether something is part of swordmanship depends a bit on storytelling and the author's opinion though.

Basically the title WSS considers only strenght through swordmanship, not other means, I think. What kind of techniques are part of swordmanship is up to debate though
 
HA001

HA001

World's Strongest Swordsman
‎
#247
#247
Poque said:
If someone fights with a sword, they're a swordsman.
If someone fights with their e.g. fists, they're a brawler.
If X fights with both their fists and a sword, they're a sword(wo)man and a brawler.
If X cannot even cut steel, but can throw punches at mountain level, they're still a (very weak) swords(wo)man and a (very strong) brawler.

If Mihawk would throw punches, he'd be a weaker brawler than, let's say, Luffy (this is not the main point, please don't start a Punching!Mihawk vs Luffy discussion). He'd still be stronger than Luffy overall though, since his main fighting style is swordmanship.

The title WSS comes down, imo, to which fighter can get the most strenght out of their swordmanship.
I think some abilities can be considered part of swordmanship, like Haki or new swords, since they simply change attack or damage, not the entire fighting style. A devil fruit would change the fighting style noticeably, like in Law's case. I think this used to be called the 'pure' swordmanship debate. Whether something is part of swordmanship depends a bit on storytelling and the author's opinion though.

Basically the title WSS considers only strenght through swordmanship, not other means, I think. What kind of techniques are part of swordmanship is up to debate though
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But oda himself labelled law a swordsman when he didnt have to.
 
Poque

Poque

‎
#248
#248
HA001 said:
But oda himself labelled law a swordsman when he didnt have to.
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Yup, so Law is a swordsman. Whether he uses his swordmanship when using his DF is another discussion. Can you tell me where Oda said that btw, my memory is a bit foggy.
Maybe Law wasn't the best example, if Oda considers his DF usage as enhancing as part of his swordmanship ability. Big Mom is perhaps a beter example: used a sword, is a swordswoman, but she doesn't derive her main strenght from swordmanship
 
HA001

HA001

World's Strongest Swordsman
‎
#249
#249
Poque said:
Yup, so Law is a swordsman. Whether he uses his swordmanship when using his DF is another discussion. Can you tell me where Oda said that btw, my memory is a bit foggy.
Maybe Law wasn't the best example, if Oda considers his DF usage as enhancing as part of his swordmanship ability. Big Mom is perhaps a beter example: used a sword, is a swordswoman, but she doesn't derive her main strenght from swordmanship
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There was a picture of brook kinemon zoro and law i believe it was and oda labelled it the 4 swordsman.

For me anyone at there strongest using a sword is a swordsman. With big mom or say kizaru who we saw pushed using a light sword for me they can go either way.
 
uyuu

uyuu

‎
#250
#250
nik87 said:
What other weapons and powers will make them superior?
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just like in real life. a swordsman in real life is not prohibited to have other strengths. But you can beat WSS in real life if you shoot him using a gun.

So in OP, any other powers that is sufficient to beat WSS, can apply just like the gun analogy. Weaker swordsman can beat WSS if they use sufficient method or powers, so beating Yoru using gravity doesn't make Fuji WSS.
 
nik87

nik87

Kitetsu Wanker
‎
#252
#252
uyuu said:
just like in real life. a swordsman in real life is not prohibited to have other strengths. But you can beat WSS in real life if you shoot him using a gun.

So in OP, any other powers that is sufficient to beat WSS, can apply just like the gun analogy. Weaker swordsman can beat WSS if they use sufficient method or powers, so beating Yoru using gravity doesn't make Fuji WSS.
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It would make Fuji into WSS, Oda never excluded the gravity and other abilities...
Good luck beating Mihawk with other powers, nothing is superior to the sword.
 
uyuu

uyuu

‎
#253
#253
nik87 said:
It would make Fuji into WSS, Oda never excluded the gravity and other abilities...
Good luck beating Mihawk with other powers, nothing is superior to the sword.
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Oda doesnt exclude other abilities from being a swordsman, just like real life. Your reply doesn't address the real point. WSS in real-life situation can be beaten by weaker swordsman with a gun, so the same apply to WSS in OP before proven otherwise. This is my view on this post and also the previous post.
 
T

trav

#254
#254
uyuu said:
WSS in real-life situation can be beaten by weaker swordsman with a gun
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if that swordsman beats Mihawk then hes not a weaker swordsman. hes simply a swordsman with a gun and therefor the new WSS.
there are not many archetype swordsman in One Piece. I know its confusing when the reigning WSS is though.
 
nik87

nik87

Kitetsu Wanker
‎
#255
#255
uyuu said:
Oda doesnt exclude other abilities from being a swordsman, just like real life. Your reply doesn't address the real point. WSS in real-life situation can be beaten by weaker swordsman with a gun, so the same apply to WSS in OP before proven otherwise. This is my view on this post and also the previous post.
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Good luck to that guy who pulls a gun at Mihawk or chooses anything else than a weapon to go against him.
If he succeeds, he would be WSS regardless.
 
uyuu

uyuu

‎
#256
#256
nik87 said:
Good luck to that guy who pulls a gun at Mihawk or chooses anything else than a weapon to go against him.
If he succeeds, he would be WSS regardless.
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what do you mean good luck? do you consider a weaker swordsman who kill the WSS with a gun, as the WSS?

trav said:
if that swordsman beats Mihawk then hes not a weaker swordsman. hes simply a swordsman with a gun and therefor the new WSS.
there are not many archetype swordsman in One Piece. I know its confusing when the reigning WSS is though.
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no, i don't consider him WSS if the main cause / ability that he use to beat the WSS is not from being a swordsman. It's not confusing. Its just the real-life logic being applied in OP and not being opposed in order to put swordsmen above any powers.
 
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