Controversial The ultimate thread on swordsmanship.
- Thread starter Charlotte Horchata
- Start date
"Mihawk is only the strongest pure swordsman", "Anybody who fights with a sword is a swordsman", "Shanks isn't only a swordsman", blah, blah, blah.
One of One Piece's oldest yet arguably most pointless debates; oldest because every week we have new threads on this topic and pointless because Oda himself hasn't been clear at all on this topic —something both sides dishonestly ignore. So in order to bring some foundation to future debates I've been doing some digging and compilated pretty much every canon information I could think of about swordsmanship in this story.
Use it as you wish and discuss whatever you want; that said:
TO BE CONTINUED AFTER THE TIMESKIP.
So far, overall conclusions:
1) Zoro dreams of becoming the strongest dai kengou, not simply the strongest swordsman. There are swordsmen that are stronger than known dai kengous yet don't have the title, and Zoro himself only achieved it after Wano (we will get there in my following of this thread), so Zoro's title can't be just about becoming the strongest sword user overall.
2) The manga has given canon distinctions between real and "fake" swords and swordsmen: a sword without subtlety and that can't choose what to cut isn't a real sword for Mihawk and Koushiro; and to be considered a true swordsman there's something in your attitude, spirit, mind, whatever that Ipponmatsu noticed in Zoro and Zoro noticed in Ryuma.
3) Haki is fundamental to become the Strongest Swordsman since (we'll go deeper into this) Hyogoro described haki the same way Koushiro described the breath of things, Mihawk took Zoro into consideration only after noticing his strong spirit and these two's training included learning busoshoku.
4) There's a way of the sword and a code for swordsmen that seems to be very important for both Zoro and Mihawk.
5) Swords are seen in animistic terms by Oda, something that will be heavily explored in Wano (but we will get there).
Thanks for reading and stay tunned for the rest!
One of One Piece's oldest yet arguably most pointless debates; oldest because every week we have new threads on this topic and pointless because Oda himself hasn't been clear at all on this topic —something both sides dishonestly ignore. So in order to bring some foundation to future debates I've been doing some digging and compilated pretty much every canon information I could think of about swordsmanship in this story.
Use it as you wish and discuss whatever you want; that said:
Inference: developing a style makes you stronger by itself, so there's a technique dimension related to your overall strength as a swordsman.
Inference: a fighter who uses a sword with no subtlelty nor skill can't even call his weapon a sword.
Inference: this either means that the more skilled you are the easier you notice who is a weaker swordsman than you or may be a hint at observation being important for a swordsman as it allows to measure your adversary's strength.
Inference: skill is undeniably important for every powerful swordsman and so far is defining the top at the field instead of just individual strength.
Inference: first explicit mention to physical strength playing a role at becoming the World's Strongest Swordsman instead of only skill and technique, although Zoro denies it since he believes Kuina could keep it up in the future.
Inference: to be considered a swordsman (and potentially enter the race for the title of Word's Strongest) you need to follow a code that defines the philosophy of what a swordsman is; such ideals will be referred throughout the story, starting by Zoro in this very chapter as he rejects giving his back to Mihawk.
This is brought back again in chapter 195:
This is brought back again in chapter 195:
Inference: once again, skill is depicted as foundamental for Mihawk to judge the strength of a swordsman. He isn't focusing on anything else.
Inference: spirit is will, will is haki; only a person with very powerful haki can truly take Mihawk's spot and odds are haoshoku, as the embodiment of such kingly ambitions, is also important to truly become the Strongest Swordsman.
Inference: the swords seller in Loguetown looks into the eyes of a real swordsman after a very long time when he meets Zoro; this hints to a canon distinction between the average sword carrier and "real swordsmen" (and I don't think a "fake swordsman" could ever become the Strongest). This distinction seems to be related to how swords choose their wielders; this animism will be brought back again through the story.
In fact, in this same chapter we have Tashigi saying the swords wielded by criminals must be crying, once again hinting at them having some life inside:
In fact, in this same chapter we have Tashigi saying the swords wielded by criminals must be crying, once again hinting at them having some life inside:
Inference: while this is a reach because the story wasn't properly established yet, this statement potentially excludes people like Aokiji and Kizaru as swordsmen no matter they use elemental swords to fight (and they'd obviously be famous as admirals).
Inference: skill is fundamental to become a stronger swordsman. Tashigi, unlike Kuina, doesn't believe her physical weakness will be an obstacle.
Now this is a very important detail that is often missed by fans who rely on translations. There's a canon distinction between swordsmen, no matter their strength, and dai kengou (大剣豪 ); @[No Name] made a very good thread on this issue that you can read here:
https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/for...-about-swordsmanship-skills-and-titles.31333/
I won't be repeating what he already posted back then, but to summarize:
In chapter 100 Zoro states his dream is to become the strongest dai kengou, not strongest swordsman; this is arguably the reason why some translations followed the "World's Greatest Swordsman" alternative since, as [No Name] shared, a dai kengou isn't necessarily stronger than a non-dai kengou: Shanks, Roger, Rayleigh, Big Mom... are obviously stronger than the likes of Vista, Ushimaru and current Zoro, yet unlike them they are never treated as 大剣豪.
Inference: a non-dai kengou can't claim the World's Strongest Swordsman title no matter their actual strength. Whatever distinguishes a dai kengou from a swordsman is also connected to the title of "World's Strongest Dai Kengou" that Zoro seeks.
https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/for...-about-swordsmanship-skills-and-titles.31333/
I won't be repeating what he already posted back then, but to summarize:
In chapter 100 Zoro states his dream is to become the strongest dai kengou, not strongest swordsman; this is arguably the reason why some translations followed the "World's Greatest Swordsman" alternative since, as [No Name] shared, a dai kengou isn't necessarily stronger than a non-dai kengou: Shanks, Roger, Rayleigh, Big Mom... are obviously stronger than the likes of Vista, Ushimaru and current Zoro, yet unlike them they are never treated as 大剣豪.
Inference: a non-dai kengou can't claim the World's Strongest Swordsman title no matter their actual strength. Whatever distinguishes a dai kengou from a swordsman is also connected to the title of "World's Strongest Dai Kengou" that Zoro seeks.
Inference: only a sword that chooses what to cut is a real sword. This was first related to the breath of things as a skill or technique, but later retconned to haki; we will reach there, but considering this, haki is stressed as a defining trait of real swordsmen as only through it can they use real swords.
Inference: swordsmanship isn't just about fighting with a blade.
Inference: something called "the way of the sword" is brought up; it's a very important concept because Zoro doesn't understand it properly and mistakes "to push and keep pushing" with it. This is later proven wrong since pushing and pushing against Bonez was pointless and only after awakening the skill to cut steel can he defeat him with one focused slash instead of his usual pushing of unskilled cuts.
Inference: it's not enough with skill alone since Ryuma has Brook's skills but a physically stronger body that is what makes him more powerful than our skeleton. So you can't become the strongest swordsman with skill only.
Brook even notices in chapter 466 that Ryuma wasn't going all out against him, further increasing the power gap:
Brook even notices in chapter 466 that Ryuma wasn't going all out against him, further increasing the power gap:
Inference: once again, a canon distinction for "true swordsmen" is established. In this case, to be a true swordsman you need to have an adequate body but also an adequate mind likely related to the way of swordsmanship and its code.
Inference: another reference to swords being somewhat alive and choosing their users. This is a consistent theme throughout the story and, in my opinion, fundamental to understanding swordsmanship since, according to Koushiro, the pinnacle of swordsmanship is freely cutting what to cut and what not to cut —and to do so you need to fully merge your will with your sword, which will be further mentioned.
Inference: there are skills required to become the Strongest which Zoro wants Mihawk to teach him about. Later in Dressrosa we have a flashback of Mihawk teaching Zoro armament haki, stressing it as important to defeat him.
TO BE CONTINUED AFTER THE TIMESKIP.
So far, overall conclusions:
1) Zoro dreams of becoming the strongest dai kengou, not simply the strongest swordsman. There are swordsmen that are stronger than known dai kengous yet don't have the title, and Zoro himself only achieved it after Wano (we will get there in my following of this thread), so Zoro's title can't be just about becoming the strongest sword user overall.
2) The manga has given canon distinctions between real and "fake" swords and swordsmen: a sword without subtlety and that can't choose what to cut isn't a real sword for Mihawk and Koushiro; and to be considered a true swordsman there's something in your attitude, spirit, mind, whatever that Ipponmatsu noticed in Zoro and Zoro noticed in Ryuma.
3) Haki is fundamental to become the Strongest Swordsman since (we'll go deeper into this) Hyogoro described haki the same way Koushiro described the breath of things, Mihawk took Zoro into consideration only after noticing his strong spirit and these two's training included learning busoshoku.
4) There's a way of the sword and a code for swordsmen that seems to be very important for both Zoro and Mihawk.
5) Swords are seen in animistic terms by Oda, something that will be heavily explored in Wano (but we will get there).
Thanks for reading and stay tunned for the rest!
The amount of cope threads Zoro and Mihawk make people create...lmao
I didn't even need to read this to know to agenda cause the dude here is a known Zoro downplayer.
But I did. Dude picked and chose only panels fitting his agenda, then came up with headcanon that Zoro's dream is to beat sometime who is the strongest daikengu. No, Zoro's dream is to be strongest swordsman, he wouldn't fight Mihawk as his goal if he wasn't that.
As Zoro says: "I cannot lose to anyone who is a swordsman"... paraphrasing
Mirror
I didn't even need to read this to know to agenda cause the dude here is a known Zoro downplayer.
But I did. Dude picked and chose only panels fitting his agenda, then came up with headcanon that Zoro's dream is to beat sometime who is the strongest daikengu. No, Zoro's dream is to be strongest swordsman, he wouldn't fight Mihawk as his goal if he wasn't that.
As Zoro says: "I cannot lose to anyone who is a swordsman"... paraphrasing
Too bad the target audience of this thread can't read
Yea imo trying to be objective will allow someone to see that Oda gives a few points to each one of them being stronger than the other.
Mihawk
("WSS")
("Even greater sword skill than Shanks")
(Giant iceberg cut)
Shanks
("Making two admirals feel threatened by CoC/powerlevel difference")
("Being recognized by WSC alongside PK-WSM")
("Oneshot two YCs by a single move while cant even cut a cannon properly")
---
Moreover, Oda said in the famous SBS "Luffy wont beat Kaidou just because his punch is stronger"
...apparently making the fist million times bigger while Coated with no-touch CoC is viewed by Oda as a different stuff, not just "his punch being stronger" even when those skills/powers do make his punch stronger. So this may be Oda's line of thinking as well regarding WSS debate.
Mihawk
("WSS")
("Even greater sword skill than Shanks")
(Giant iceberg cut)
Shanks
("Making two admirals feel threatened by CoC/powerlevel difference")
("Being recognized by WSC alongside PK-WSM")
("Oneshot two YCs by a single move while cant even cut a cannon properly")
---
Moreover, Oda said in the famous SBS "Luffy wont beat Kaidou just because his punch is stronger"
...apparently making the fist million times bigger while Coated with no-touch CoC is viewed by Oda as a different stuff, not just "his punch being stronger" even when those skills/powers do make his punch stronger. So this may be Oda's line of thinking as well regarding WSS debate.
There are definitely swordsman codes in One Piece.
I don't know why anyone thinks it's fine to assume that each swordsman follows the *same* code though. Or that it is safe to assume who does or doesn't follow one. Or even that it has any relevance towards the meaning of Mihawk's title.
Oda himself has hardly introduced nuance to it. The best evidence you'll find is King talking about "schools of discipline," but that can mean anything. It was likely just a jab at Zoro "limiting" himself to only fighting with swords (hence Zoro's response of "I'd be willing to bite your throat off if I needed.")
I don't know why anyone thinks it's fine to assume that each swordsman follows the *same* code though. Or that it is safe to assume who does or doesn't follow one. Or even that it has any relevance towards the meaning of Mihawk's title.
Oda himself has hardly introduced nuance to it. The best evidence you'll find is King talking about "schools of discipline," but that can mean anything. It was likely just a jab at Zoro "limiting" himself to only fighting with swords (hence Zoro's response of "I'd be willing to bite your throat off if I needed.")
Wrong. The WSS path is both ACoC and CoA. Combining the 2 gives the swordsman the highest offensive and defensive power. They literally become the unstoppable force meets an immovable object paradox in one.
The Pinnacle of swordsmanahip is to cut what one wishes to cut or not cut. That means someone who's truly reached that will be able to cut Kaido in half with one technique or cut through WB strongest attack and power combined. That can only be possible by creating a black blade and adding large amounts of ACoC to the sword. A black blade alone won't be enough.
The weapon databook tells us WB and Kaido are able to channel or coat their weapons with their power because of the weapon hardness or durability.
Neither weapon is a black blade. Black blades are the hardest and strongest weapons in the manga. They're unbreakable. That means an unlimited amount of power/haki can be channeled through or coated on a black blade.
That is a true benefit and power of a black blade.
The Pinnacle of swordsmanahip is to cut what one wishes to cut or not cut. That means someone who's truly reached that will be able to cut Kaido in half with one technique or cut through WB strongest attack and power combined. That can only be possible by creating a black blade and adding large amounts of ACoC to the sword. A black blade alone won't be enough.
The weapon databook tells us WB and Kaido are able to channel or coat their weapons with their power because of the weapon hardness or durability.
Neither weapon is a black blade. Black blades are the hardest and strongest weapons in the manga. They're unbreakable. That means an unlimited amount of power/haki can be channeled through or coated on a black blade.
That is a true benefit and power of a black blade.
Wrong. The WSS path is both ACoC and CoA. Combining the 2 gives the swordsman the highest offensive and defensive power. They literally become the unstoppable force meets an immovable object paradox in one.
The Pinnacle of swordsmanahip is to cut what one wishes to cut or not cut. That means someone who's truly reached that will be able to cut Kaido in half with one technique or cut through WB strongest attack and power combined. That can only be possible by creating a black blade and adding large amounts of ACoC to the sword. A black blade alone won't be enough.
The weapon databook tells us WB and Kaido are able to channel or coat their weapons with their power because of the weapon hardness or durability.
Neither weapon is a black blade. Black blades are the hardest and strongest weapons in the manga. They're unbreakable. That means an unlimited amount of power/haki can be channeled through or coated on a black blade.
That is a true benefit and power of a black blade.
The Pinnacle of swordsmanahip is to cut what one wishes to cut or not cut. That means someone who's truly reached that will be able to cut Kaido in half with one technique or cut through WB strongest attack and power combined. That can only be possible by creating a black blade and adding large amounts of ACoC to the sword. A black blade alone won't be enough.
The weapon databook tells us WB and Kaido are able to channel or coat their weapons with their power because of the weapon hardness or durability.
Neither weapon is a black blade. Black blades are the hardest and strongest weapons in the manga. They're unbreakable. That means an unlimited amount of power/haki can be channeled through or coated on a black blade.
That is a true benefit and power of a black blade.
Zoro did that when he blocked hakai, and when he repelled King's sword when the swordbreaker technique was tried again.
Is Zoro not a swordsman now?
Is Zoro not a swordsman now?
Zoro didn't repel King, we see the aftermath of him getting flung by King to the left.. All Zoro did was able to keep on to his Blades even if he was in a bad position in mid air..
No, he didn't. His swords aren't big enough to block that attack.
Hyou explained ryu/haki to Luffy and his swordsman uses it. He told us they use ryu/haki to coat things like an invisible armor to increase their offensive and/or defensive power.
Just like ACoC.
Read and comprehend the manga.
Hyou explained ryu/haki to Luffy and his swordsman uses it. He told us they use ryu/haki to coat things like an invisible armor to increase their offensive and/or defensive power.
Just like ACoC.
Read and comprehend the manga.
Your thread is losing against https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/for...smanship-skills-and-titles.31333/post-3390529