Role Madness Too Many Doctors (Game Thread)

[Ratchet]

@Ratchet b4 i go - did u outline ur reservations for the 7-7-7 plan?

surely atleast 2/7 doctors will comply in each sector

No I don't really care about that one, beyond not getting people to agree. But you can advocate it if you want, don't let me stop you. I think Kingmaker is more fun and this is better and still gives the mech thing a shot too.

 

[Flower]

Player A busses B. Scum go down to 4 at the start of Day 2. Player A gets picked again because Flower is worried about bussing. Player A either buses again, or picks town. Day 3, Player A gets killed. Player C never gets a real opportunity to bus Player A, but even if they do, they can be made King and thus forced to bus again. It's forcing 1:1 trades while also following YOUR plan. If you're arguing 1:1 trades from scum are bad from town then I think you're out of your depth here because they're never bad. Bussing is really not a solution here. If you want, you can just keep the same King until they get it wrong.

Nobody is expecting people to be flawless and you know it.
Nobody ever follows the sheep player X until they’re wrong and then off them if they are rule.
If you have one wrong read you don’t automatically deserve to get killed. That’s never how Mafia worked. The best way is voting for the night target. It shows where everyone stands and gives info on wagonomics which is also very valuable, especially on days with a scum lynch when it causes a potential double scum flip.

And again, you still ignore the fact you argued against my plan because not everyone would target the same player while yours requires the same thing. Still fail to address that.

You‘re just scum.

 

[Ratchet]

cool lets lynch mango then m-word

vote lynch mango

I dunno about Mango. Was thinking of skipping the lynch actually. Could do that if scum dies at night too.

 

[Yoho]

What's the current consensus, I got distracted by a movie

 

[Flower]

I dunno about Mango. Was thinking of skipping the lynch actually. Could do that if scum dies at night too.

This is not a real thought for any decent Town player. No Lynch D1 is the worst play.

 

[Flower]

What's the current consensus, I got distracted by a movie

Vote me, kill Ratchet at night.

Night.

 

[MangoSenpai]

1 - it doesn't force everyone to comply. I can't do that Mango. I can't hold a gun to your head and tell you that you have to do this. But it *incentives* it. Let me explain why.

So using Flower's suggestion, there was nothing in there about deciding who we target. So I said, why don't we do this. Ekko said, it doesn't matter, it's just PoE, but the problem is getting people to agree on who is PoE is not easy and nigh on impossible this early. And with that, you run the risk of people disagreeing with the Poe and thus having no reason to follow the plan. If they tell me you should die and I think you're town, then I'm not going to agree with it. So I might not follow the plan. But if you tell me that the person who is pushing you gets killed if you're town, then I might agree, because that way if I'm right on you, then I might begin to suspect them. So it gives me info on them. The key point is this - I have incentive to follow the plan.

And if I don't, then I don't. In Flower's plan, her solution is to cry about it because her plan is perfect, how can people not follow. But if they don't, then as long as the person the King suggested to die still dies, there is info gleaned. But if people do follow, then the watcher info can come into play which is what Flower envisioned.

Does that make sense? I can't eliminate the issue as a whole and I never sold it as such. I mean if you were to give me a gun, all of your addresses and a blank cheque I could give it a go. But short of that, then we have to make to make do with good enough. All the benefits to Flower's plan is still there. Which is why her position is so silly lol. And also notable that Ekko immediately disagrees with it. Because the benefits are still there. It's the same plan plus with incentive to follow it. And Flower said she wants less thread control for me, here I am, giving up all the thread control.

So yeah that's the skinny really. I think it's a good idea.

So if I'm understanding correctly what you're saying is that being the King doesn't imply they have to be followed, but the fact that they are burdened with the task of determining a target will put a lot of pressure on them and making them prone to scrutiny so that they really have to consider their targets - and if it is a scum that gets made a King they have all eyes on them, and they have to be very cautious about how he choses his targets


Am I getting this right?

 

[Yoho]

Vote me, kill Ratchet at night.

Night.

I'll think about it

 

[Ratchet]

Nobody is expecting people to be flawless and you know it.
Nobody ever follows the sheep player X until they’re wrong and then off them if they are rule.
If you have one wrong read you don’t automatically deserve to get killed. That’s never how Mafia worked. The best way is voting for the night target. It shows where everyone stands and gives info on wagonomics which is also very valuable, especially on days with a scum lynch when it causes a potential double scum flip.

And again, you still ignore the fact you argued against my plan because not everyone would target the same player while yours requires the same thing. Still fail to address that.

You‘re just scum.

Well that's the fun of it Flower! It makes people who are super confident, like you are, prove it. You say I'm scum. Well why don't we make you King and let's test it out? Or Ekko. Do you not like the challenge? I think a lot of players would like the pressure of needing to be right. And if they're wrong, okay they die Day 2, but they have all of Day 2 to find a solve. You're absolutely terrified of bussing. Well here you go - a plan that completely decentivises bussing. You are terrified of giving better players thread control. Well here you go, no thread control.

I've already explained to Mango how my plan incentives people targeting a player that they may read town. It does not fully solve the issue but nothing can enforce co-operation. It is better than forcing players to submit to democracy - that doesn't really mean anything to someone who disagrees. And, where your plan capitulated if it isn't perfectly followed, with Kingmaker you get info regardless because the alignment of the dead player helps inform the living. With your way, scum have "uh the consensus agreed with me" to fall back on to defend pushing bad lynches.

My solution is just better - more fun, and more effective. It gives you your plan and puts it in a framework that has a chance to actually succeed. If I were King Day 1 and pushed town you'd be wanting me lynched Day 2 regardless anyway. You can keep arguing but it just makes you look hysterical tbh.

 

[MangoSenpai]

Yah I still have seen no reason to move my vote off mango tbh, especially among the more active posters currently

 

[Ratchet]

So if I'm understanding correctly what you're saying is that being the King doesn't imply they have to be followed, but the fact that they are burdened with the task of determining a target will put a lot of pressure on them and making them prone to scrutiny so that they really have to consider their targets - and if it is a scum that gets made a King they have all eyes on them, and they have to be very cautious about how he choses his targets


Am I getting this right?

Correct! Well done Mango, you succeeded where the grand minds of Flower and Ekko failed. If scum get picked they're in between a rock and a hard place. And if town get picked, well they should be confident they're right because they should at least believe what they're saying. This is why you don't pick wishy washy players if you can help it. You want to pick players who are confident or say they're confident - look at little Flower for example. She really wants her perspective heard and REFUSES to allow otherwise. This way, she gets to call the night kill. And if she's wrong? Well that's on her.

 

[MangoSenpai]

Correct! Well done Mango, you succeeded where the grand minds of Flower and Ekko failed. If scum get picked they're in between a rock and a hard place. And if town get picked, well they should be confident they're right because they should at least believe what they're saying. This is why you don't pick wishy washy players if you can help it. You want to pick players who are confident or say they're confident - look at little Flower for example. She really wants her perspective heard and REFUSES to allow otherwise. This way, she gets to call the night kill. And if she's wrong? Well that's on her.

 

[Ratchet]

So if I'm understanding correctly what you're saying is that being the King doesn't imply they have to be followed, but the fact that they are burdened with the task of determining a target will put a lot of pressure on them and making them prone to scrutiny so that they really have to consider their targets - and if it is a scum that gets made a King they have all eyes on them, and they have to be very cautious about how he choses his targets


Am I getting this right?

Because in addition to all this the doctors of the town are told to go target who the King says, and so does the watcher, which means her whole angle of forcing the mafia to kill who we want still applies. It just comes with this Kingmaker incentive too. Can you imagine scum having to choose between outing one of them or shooting scum?

 

[MangoSenpai]

Because in addition to all this the doctors of the town are told to go target who the King says, and so does the watcher, which means her whole angle of forcing the mafia to kill who we want still applies. It just comes with this Kingmaker incentive too. Can you imagine scum having to choose between outing one of them or shooting scum?

I love it, I'm sold.

Now, how are we going to do this? Do we just get a majority of players to nominate someone?

Because I can guarantee you it will be impossible to have everyone agree to this strat

 

[Yoho]

I love it, I'm sold.

Now, how are we going to do this? Do we just get a majority of players to nominate someone?

Because I can guarantee you it will be impossible to have everyone agree to this strat

I volunteer for tribute!

 

[MangoSenpai]

I volunteer for tribute!

Is that to say you want to die, or dictate who does?

 

[Daniel]

Is that to say you're not in agreement with the sentiment?

Any thoughts about it?

I don't agree, no.

I'm not a big fan of immediately pointing fingers at a particular user, particularly when it's not the first time that same user has been nominated for elimination early on (and I was also participating in that game too).

 

[Yoho]

Is that to say you want to die, or dictate who does?

I'll decide who dies

 

[Ratchet]

I love it, I'm sold.

Now, how are we going to do this? Do we just get a majority of players to nominate someone?

Because I can guarantee you it will be impossible to have everyone agree to this strat

I would suggest the first player we nominate as King be one at the forefront of the pushes - Flower, Ekko, even myself. Then when the active players agree to a King, who the King is isn't terribly important Day 1 as long as it's someone who is pushing things with a degree of certainty. Then the King says "I want this player dead", we all target them tonight and mass tag to let everyone know that. For the lynch today, we either sleep or we cut off an inactive player, because the inactive players are only going to hurt us and subs don't seem to be in abundance here.

Then we get on with it basically. If Flower's plan reaps rewards we follow that, then come back to Kingmaker.

 

[Hayumi]