Powers & Abilities What is Roger´s greatest individual fighting feat ?

[Tyki_Mikk]

If you still expect that Haki alone can make you pinnacle of power in one piece manga without having broken devil fruit , then my friend you have been reading wrong manga.

I mean Haki is not that special anymore, to hurt the HKs you just need your regular adv CoC...
Maybe wifi haki is something special to counter your opponent df power and CoO observation killer are the next upgrades, but I don´t see them as gamechanger against a broken haki df user like Whitebeard, let alone Loki as example...

Gaban is right next to Rayleigh in power, together with Shanks and 100 Giants, he failed to do anything to Harald, meanwhile Loki with his df single handle the situation alone with speaks volumne...

Haki is not the chakra,Rejatsu or nen of the One Piece verse, Devilfruits are, haki are just a added second powersystem Oda added to make non df users fighting df users.

In the end the pinnacle of power in One piece are devilfruits, not haki...
Roger or Shanks can´t became god tiers alone just with haki.
The godtiers of this verse became only godtiers because of their devilfruit...

Roger didn´t had wifi haki or CoO killer ability in God Valley at top...

 

[Fn Lucci]

Imagine Mihawk or Kaido being stronger than Roger

The biggest and most consistent mistake on this forum, or with power scaling in general, is believing that titles are strength determinations. There are drastic power gaps at every turn: even if you want to say that Buggy is exceptionally weak for a Yonko, there also isn't a chance that Luffy is ready for Shanks or Blackbeard. Made up assignments of strength like "YC1" will never be validated by Oda and there's never any context involved, which is why we also get so many complaints about inconsistency.

As far as Pirate King goes, we know that only one of the three first generation Yonko has tied Roger in a fight... but Roger died over twenty years ago. Obviously things change. The four Yonko keep each other from becoming Pirate King and that wouldn't change if they are all half as strong as Roger or twice as strong. Finding the One Piece is the only determinant.

Spoiler

 

[Djordje]

I mean Haki is not that special anymore, to hurt the HKs you just need your regular adv CoC...
Maybe wifi haki is something special to counter your opponent df power and CoO observation killer are the next upgrades, but I don´t see them as gamechanger against a broken haki df user like Whitebeard, let alone Loki as example...

Gaban is right next to Rayleigh in power, together with Shanks and 100 Giants, he failed to do anything to Harald, meanwhile Loki with his df single handle the situation alone with speaks volumne...

Haki is not the chakra,Rejatsu or nen of the One Piece verse, Devilfruits are, haki are just a added second powersystem Oda added to make non df users fighting df users.

In the end the pinnacle of power in One piece are devilfruits, not haki...
Roger or Shanks can´t became god tiers alone just with haki.
The godtiers of this verse became only godtiers because of their devilfruit...

Roger didn´t had wifi haki or CoO killer ability in God Valley at top...

Gaban recently stated Roger pirates fought Holy Knights without being able to kill them . This fact alone tells enough about Haki ceiling.

We yet need an answer how did Loki kill immortal is it special ability granted by devil fruit or devil fruit itself being so powerful that it grants huge gap in power compared to even legit top tiers.

 

[Fn Lucci]

Which is my point, essentially. If Kaido was weakened from prior fights, Luffy was weakened from Kaido beating him deader than dirt.

Beating Luffy so badly himself isn't the same as fighting others in addition to Luffy, though. Aside from the attack from Apoo, Luffy basically took all his damage in the battle from Kaido. Even with CoC, he was knocked out and was given food in his time to recover, while Yamato stalled Kaido. And this is all assuming that the fire clouds had no impact on his stamina overall.

My understanding of MF was that it was never about WB, it was about Ace.

I agree, but I'm saying that the result was the same. Killing Whitebeard caused destabilizing factors across the world, but they did it anyway.

They honestly didn't even need an open war with Whitebeard because they had the chance to kill Ace privately and never had to announce that he's the son of Roger. Which isn't necessarily my point, just an aside as far as motivations go.

As for Shanks, Sengoku explicitly says "since it's you, red hair" that he'll stop the war. Again I guess it's a matter of whether they want to fight Shanks or no, and if this guy is a CD descendent with importance to world balance, that's a good reason not to fight.

The Marines themselves were still in good condition, hell they'd been stomping so hard up to that point that Koby lost his marbles and started telling them to chill.

In the context of what you're saying, Sengoku would seem to be saving face. Blackbeard was also present and there was no way of predicting how it would go if they forced a fight.

Why exactly would Shanks want to kill Kaido aside from maybe the Oden thing? We also have no clue about their interactions either. Shanks' motivations also are a mystery atp.

And outside of their MF interaction, he couldn't exactly take on Kaido in a war. The latter seemingly had more potent armies and a stronghold in Wano.

Right, we don't know Shanks' motivations except we haven't seen him back down from any fight in the series.

 

[RayanOO]

The biggest and most consistent mistake on this forum, or with power scaling in general, is believing that titles are strength determinations. There are drastic power gaps at every turn: even if you want to say that Buggy is exceptionally weak for a Yonko, there also isn't a chance that Luffy is ready for Shanks or Blackbeard. Made up assignments of strength like "YC1" will never be validated by Oda and there's never any context involved, which is why we also get so many complaints about inconsistency.

As far as Pirate King goes, we know that only one of the three first generation Yonko has tied Roger in a fight... but Roger died over twenty years ago. Obviously things change. The four Yonko keep each other from becoming Pirate King and that wouldn't change if they are all half as strong as Roger or twice as strong. Finding the One Piece is the only determinant.

Spoiler

It’s not a question of titles or anything

it’s a question of Luffy path, the Mc

Luffy dream and journey is the be the PK
Roger started the whole manga

No way someone from his gen or middle gen is stronger than him

 

[Fn Lucci]

It’s not a question of titles or anything

it’s a question of Luffy path, the Mc

Luffy dream and journey is the be the PK
Roger started the whole manga

No way someone from his gen or middle gen is stronger than him

Until someone in the series makes a direct statement, there's literally no way of knowing as Roger won't come back.

BUT, whether or not someone is stronger than Roger is irrelevant. Roger became the pirate King by stealing Big Mom's poneglyph tracing instead of fighting her. Of course I suspect he could've beaten her then, but he himself didn't think it was important so it's not a matter of strength. I mean, Buggy is in the running lol

 

[kekaro]

Until someone in the series makes a direct statement, there's literally no way of knowing as Roger won't come back.

BUT, whether or not someone is stronger than Roger is irrelevant. Roger became the pirate King by stealing Big Mom's poneglyph tracing instead of fighting her. Of course I suspect he could've beaten her then, but he himself didn't think it was important so it's not a matter of strength. I mean, Buggy is in the running lol

as opposed to which people other statement and title merchants beat exactly?

 

[Fn Lucci]

as opposed to which people other statement and title merchants beat exactly?

No offense, but I don't understand what you are trying to ask.

 

[kekaro]

I don't understand what you are trying to ask.

How is it relevant if dodger beat xy character or dodged xy character if that applies to every statement and title merchant in the series?
Thats not the exception its the rule
Unless you are scrutinizing every of those frauds like that which you clearly arent

 

[Fn Lucci]

How is it relevant if dodger beat xy character or dodged xy character if that applies to every statement and title merchant in the series?
Thats not the exception its the rule
Unless you are scrutinizing every of those frauds like that which you clearly arent

Part of the confusion is that I don't understand scaler/WG vernacular. For example I'm assuming that dodger is supposed to be Roger, but I don't know what a title merchant is supposed to be.

What I'm saying is that beating "xy" is irrelevant to being the Pirate King. If Buggy got all four rubbings and found the One Piece, then his lack of strength wouldn't matter. Strength is not irrelevant to a title, but it doesn't determine a title, same as a bounty.

So I don't know what a "fraud" is supposed to be.

 

[kekaro]

Part of the confusion is that I don't understand scaler/WG vernacular. For example I'm assuming that dodger is supposed to be Roger, but I don't know what a title merchant is supposed to be.

What I'm saying is that beating "xy" is irrelevant to being the Pirate King. If Buggy got all four rubbings and found the One Piece, then his lack of strength wouldn't matter. Strength is not irrelevant to a title, but it doesn't determine a title, same as a bounty.

So I don't know what a "fraud" is supposed to be.

You are reading a story tho, not doing forensic science. Here in sterile for you:

Narrativly as @RayanOO and @Tyki_Mikk pointed out Rogers legend in story, stated with those words, is the overarching (nika might be a overall higher legend, that isnt however relevant to the discussion where we talking about the current + previous era were roger was alive) Legend in the story. Luffy, the main character, written by akira toriyamas, eichiroo oda, biggest dick rider and goku worshipper, wants to be the freest man, he thinks thats the pirate king and equaled that many times in his brain to be also the strongest man as he can beat anyone up that want to hurt his nakama.

If your counter argument to that is: We seen Roger sneak into BM terriortry instead fighting and defeating her, and we never seen Roger defeat someone noteworthy 1vs1 on screen: Counter argument to that is that applies to everyone you are supposed to think they are strong because of their title. Kaido holed up in wano for 2 decades and the only onscreen win we see him against someone remotely strong (who is not even top tier if we use the final saga/current scaling) was by a trick, Mihawk dodged more fights than he fought and the strongest opponent he defeated were new okamas and so on.

 

[Xione]

Hm, I might make a thread about this.

Would be interesting topic to discuss.

 

[Nagasaki]

We cannot forget that Roger avoided a direct confrontation with Big Mom, preferring to stealthily steal the copy of Poneglyph.Based on this, one cannot even claim that he is stronger than Big Mom.

 

[Zoinks52]

Beating Luffy so badly himself isn't the same as fighting others in addition to Luffy, though. Aside from the attack from Apoo, Luffy basically took all his damage in the battle from Kaido. Even with CoC, he was knocked out and was given food in his time to recover, while Yamato stalled Kaido. And this is all assuming that the fire clouds had no impact on his stamina overall.

Sorry, but I'm not sure what your point is?

Mine is simply that G5 Luffy was exhausted as of his final fight with Kaido, and that most tend to ignore this while claiming that Kaido was more tired due to prior fights.

And that final fight is the most important comparison between G5 Luffy and Kaido.

So if they fought the way they did while each was similarly exhausted, then they were comparable, as opposed to Kaido still being stronger.

Killing Whitebeard caused destabilizing factors across the world, but they did it anyway.

They honestly didn't even need an open war with Whitebeard because they had the chance to kill Ace privately

Blackbeard killed WB, not the WG. Akainu did help the process with Meigo, but that was more of a retaliation to getting coldcocked.

For the most part, the WG wanted to prevent WB from saving Ace. Killing the Emperor wasn't treated as their top priority.

The Gorosei did not seem happy about WB's death either due to BB's ascent.

And as for killing Ace privately, it was partly because WB was going to war with them anyways.

Also if I'm not mistaken, they wanted to stem the flow of piracy by executing the son of the King and the protege of the Strongest publicly with the world watching.

Problem ofc is that WB fucked it up with his One Piece Is Real speech, increasing piracy instead of what the Marines wanted.

In the context of what you're saying, Sengoku would seem to be saving face. Blackbeard was also present and there was no way of predicting how it would go if they forced a fight.

Interesting, because the only one who mentioned saving face was Shanks.

The Marines were still capable of fighting, both Kizaru and Kuzan fired on Luffy while Shanks was there. If they wanted to fight, I don't know who would win.

Right, we don't know Shanks' motivations except we haven't seen him back down from any fight in the series.

He also isn't the type to pick fights unless his friends are threatened or hurt. Again, I really don't see any reason for Shanks to pick fights with Kaido willy nilly while they are of equal standing.

 

[Tyki_Mikk]

You are reading a story tho, not doing forensic science. Here in sterile for you:

Narrativly as @RayanOO and @Tyki_Mikk pointed out Rogers legend in story, stated with those words, is the overarching (nika might be a overall higher legend, that isnt however relevant to the discussion where we talking about the current + previous era were roger was alive) Legend in the story. Luffy, the main character, written by akira toriyamas, eichiroo oda, biggest dick rider and goku worshipper, wants to be the freest man, he thinks thats the pirate king and equaled that many times in his brain to be also the strongest man as he can beat anyone up that want to hurt his nakama.

If your counter argument to that is: We seen Roger sneak into BM terriortry instead fighting and defeating her, and we never seen Roger defeat someone noteworthy 1vs1 on screen: Counter argument to that is that applies to everyone you are supposed to think they are strong because of their title. Kaido holed up in wano for 2 decades and the only onscreen win we see him against someone remotely strong (who is not even top tier if we use the final saga/current scaling) was by a trick, Mihawk dodged more fights than he fought and the strongest opponent he defeated were new okamas and so on.

We thought Oden was around the top 15 ranking if not rank top 10 in wano and look now.. he might not even end in the top 20 if we continue like this. Alone in Elbaf we got 2 characters who are above Oden...

- Roger never won a battle in 1on1 against his rivals (at least so far).
- Garp and Sengoku defeated Shiki in a 2vs1
- Kaido defeated Oden after a trick/offguard move
- Xebec is the only one who killed another top tier but we don't know all the information about that battle and how he defeated him.
- Harald vs Xebec> Equals
- Whitebeard vs Roger> equal
- Mihawk vs Shanks> no winner

All equal opponent always had equal battles without a clear winner.

The only two top tier battle who had a winner is Kuzan vs Akainu where Akainu won and Loki vs Harald where Loki won.

Roger lacks in portrayal and feats.
He doesn't seems be like the strongest pirate...

 

[Fn Lucci]

You are reading a story tho

I'm reading a post with esoteric wording. Sorry if me not understanding might be annoying, but you're posting in response to me responding to someone else, so it's kinda out of nowhere.

[Luffy] thinks thats the pirate king and equaled that many times in his brain to be also the strongest man as he can beat anyone up that want to hurt his nakama.

That is certainly Luffy's interpretation, and it's not exclusive to him, but it is unique. None of his three rivals have expressed the same. Whitebeard apparently wanted Ace to be the Pirate King and said nothing about grooming him to beat anyone else.

In fact, we really have to consider that Luffy's unique understanding of the world and his place in it is the entire point of his role as the protagonist. He's largely different from everyone else.

If your counter argument to that is: We seen Roger sneak into BM terriortry instead fighting and defeating her, and we never seen Roger defeat someone noteworthy 1vs1 on screen: Counter argument to that is that applies to everyone you are supposed to think they are strong because of their title. Kaido holed up in wano for 2 decades and the only onscreen win we see him against someone remotely strong (who is not even top tier if we use the final saga/current scaling) was by a trick, Mihawk dodged more fights than he fought and the strongest opponent he defeated were new okamas and so on.

I don't actually care about Roger beating someone noteworthy, on panel or not. We know that in his prime, no one was considered strong enough to stop him (even if no one could know that with absolute certainty). Whitebeard was considered equal, not superior, and the title of strongest man is heavily tied to Roger being gone. That's enough for me.

 

[kekaro]

We thought Oden was around the top 15 ranking if not rank top 10 in wano and look now.. he might not even end in the top 20 if we continue like this. Alone in Elbaf we got 2 characters who are above Oden...

- Roger never won a battle in 1on1 against his rivals (at least so far).
- Garp and Sengoku defeated Shiki in a 2vs1
- Kaido defeated Oden after a trick/offguard move
- Xebec is the only one who killed another top tier but we don't know all the information about that battle and how he defeated him.
- Harald vs Xebec> Equals
- Whitebeard vs Roger> equal
- Mihawk vs Shanks> no winner

All equal opponent always had equal battles without a clear winner.

The only two top tier battle who had a winner is Kuzan vs Akainu where Akainu won and Loki vs Harald where Loki won.

Roger lacks in portrayal and feats.
He doesn't seems be like the strongest pirate...

To be honest Odens fall off was not suprise a to me.
It was already layed out in Wano (at the end of course but we were still in wano) that for a dfless/base weapon user you needed to have supreme king coating to be considered top tier. This might maybe the results of the great haki lightning debates back than but ultimativly Oden didnt have even that and the further we progressed from that the worse it got, the last defiance were when zgirls clowned themself by coping about oden > gaban till he used more advanced conquerors technique then oden saw in his life probally.


As for the rest, for ME personally: i dont give 2 fuck about titles, for me its the intention of the author (like for example i have mihawk above shanks for now because i think people would clown zoro for decades if it was the other way around, and oda is aware of that it has nothing to do with the title), and while i think the introduction of xebec chinked Rogers super special armor, it not like you can refute that oda wanted him still treated be special. Titles and statements are just for their to hype up because oda loves to hype up merchant, see recent chapter were in japanese its stated jarul was the strongest on the seas or some shit. I guess Jarul > all confirmed!!!!!!!!!

I also do the feat scaling or microanalyzing pages without narrative context to clown most other people on this site i think it has no value in a manga like one piece were the author intention trumped those headcanon many times.

Oda is not writing some 90000 IQ mystery novel nor is he trying to trick the audience, he is on record that he wants hype battles and aping Dragonball, if he wants you to think a character is still relevant and strong, he will mention them, or tell you in story, not cram 20 year old volumes and anyalse it and make a 20000 essay in your non native language for you to figure out.

 

[kekaro]

That is certainly Luffy's interpretation, and it's not exclusive to him, but it is unique. None of his three rivals have expressed the same. Whitebeard apparently wanted Ace to be the Pirate King and said nothing about grooming him to beat anyone else.

In fact, we really have to consider that Luffy's unique understanding of the world and his place in it is the entire point of his role as the protagonist. He's largely different from everyone else.
.

If your argument is luffy understanding the world wrong and thats the author intention we should see it that way i dont think we have much to talk about. Like as you can see from my above post i fundementally disagree with even the grounding of such an argument. Not even trying to be mean we read the story fundementlaly different than and i cant convince you if you think that differently

For me it is as transparent as it can be with considering who the author is, which audience he writes, and what statments he did over the years, author intention is clear as day for me and so is the analysis of such. What luffy thinks about fundemental concepts is the ultimative truth here, even more so BECAUSE its unique

 

[Xione]

while i think the introduction of xebec chinked Rogers super special armor,

Personally I dont think it did anything to Roger as an entity. But the big issue I think is we dont actually see Roger's journey, what we see is moments of Roger in other people's journeys. Which only includes the moments of Roger in their lives.

Its very similar to somebody like Dragon. We've seen moments of Dragon in other people's flashbacks, but not his own flashback.

Thats why I think an actual Roger flashback is bound to happen, which will show us exactly the shit he was doing post-GV and his rise to the point where even in the Harald flashback he's treated as an equal entity to Xebec. Like with Oden/Harald/Xebec we see their rise, most important parts of their middle journey and their conclusion.

Cause even for somebody like Garp, God Valley is just one of the many legends about him according to Sengoku. So if hes done other shit like GV, a mf like Roger would have done so too.

Cause I still remember the discourse in the Oden flashback during Wano where people were claiming hes the chosen one for Oda. Oda is telling us he surpassed Roger/Whitebeard due to a narrators statement and Oden's statement about Kaido. Etc etc.

 

[kekaro]

Personally I dont think it did anything to Roger as an entity. But the big issue I think is we dont actually see Roger's journey, what we see is moments of Roger in other people's journeys. Which only includes the moments of Roger in their lives.

Its very similar to somebody like Dragon. We've seen moments of Dragon in other people's flashbacks, but not his own flashback.

Thats why I think an actual Roger flashback is bound to happen, which will show us exactly the shit he was doing post-GV and his rise to the point where even in the Harald flashback he's treated as an equal entity to Xebec. Like with Oden/Harald/Xebec we see their rise, most important parts of their middle journey and their conclusion.

Cause even for somebody like Garp, God Valley is just one of the many legends about him according to Sengoku. So if hes done other shit like GV, a mf like Roger would have done so too.

Cause I still remember the discourse in the Oden flashback during Wano where people were claiming hes the chosen one for Oda. Oda is telling us he surpassed Roger/Whitebeard due to a narrators statement and Oden's statement about Kaido. Etc etc.

If there is one it most likely gonna be on laugh tale