Questions & Mysteries Why do you just assume Sanji defeated Page One?

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I would assert that I do believe Hawk Eye is slightly weaker than Roger but considering Roger was a swordsman and it is very common for Shogun protagonists aspiring to be strongest of their era end up being strongest of all eras, Zoro will more than likely be stronger than Roger.

And if Hawk Eye is truly Zoros final combatant Roronoa duels with, a fairly logical case for Hawk Eye being same level as Gol D Roger can be made.

And although I disagree with it, I think notion Hawkeyes combat ability surpassing that of Gol D Roger is a rather less erroneous than denial of the notion that Hawk Eyes combat ability surpasses that of one armed Red Hair.
I don't wanna turn your thread into a Mihawk debate but bear with me for a moment here.

If you think Mihawk is Roger level then could you see the following scenarios playing out in you're head:
1. Roger gets his attack deflected by Jozu
2. Roger goes at pre skip Luffy with intent to kill but fails
3. Roger gets blocked and stalled by Vista for a while
4. Roger gets stopped by and clashes with Crocodile

Now, just so we're clear, I'm not saying that if Mihawk wanted to he couldn't wipe the floor with evryone I just named. He absolutely could. But is it not manga fact that all those scenarios I mentioned happened to Mihawk at Marineford? Could you honestly picture Gol. D fucking Roger, the guy that low diffed Kaido level Oden, in these scenarios?

On the topic of Mihawk being Zoro's final opponent, I don't think that alone warrants him being stronger than roger. If Zoro is to Luffy what Rayleigh is to Roger then there's no basis that EOS Zoro would be stronger than Prime Roger. Not saying it won't happen, I'm saying there's no real basis as of yet.
 
I mean Zoro have a reason to kill the Magistrate but for Killer I don't feel like he need to kill him to be honest. I mean he was chasing Hiyori and Otoko so Zoro just need step in and stop him from killing them.
Thing is Zoro has no reason to care and to hold back especially he didn't knew it was Killer and see him as 'Man-Slayer'. Wouldn't you kill a guy who sets to kill you? If Zoro already 'killed' magistrate why leave a guy like that alive? Doesn't make sense in hindsight.
 
Why did Zoro kill Magistrate? Again both want him dead, yet he left the one who is an actual 'Killer' (No-Pun Intended) alive, but kill corrupt guy instead?
Zoro killed the magistrate because the magistrate is such a fodder that he can't even survive a casual unnamed flying slash from a seppuku knife Zoro. :luuh:


Besides, whomever Zoro choose to kill or not to kill is bloody irrelevant with how Sanji failed to take out Page One.

Try again next time.
 

Elder Lee Hung

Conqueror of the Stars
You said prove why Kidd and Law are major rivals to Luffy. I am going to show you evidence for that even with these upcoming current chapters as Oda pushing them as rivals in this arc to take out Kaido.
3 characters all attempting the same goals is not a "rivalry."

A rivalry would be 3 characters with equal or near equal accomplishments and capabilities all attempting the same thing, each having a legitimate shot of pulling that goal off. Shin, Ouhon, and Mouten from Kingdom are a true rivalry, Luffy, Kidd, and Law are not even close to a rivalry.

I'm sure I don't need to emphasize just how far away Law and Kidd are from Luffy as far as accomplishments go, Law got close to defeating Doffy but ultimately failed, and Kidd's best feat post TS is sinking two of Big Mom's ships while Luffy defeated two of her commanders.

Luffy, Kidd, and Law are not real rivals as Kidd and Law have done nothing to warrant us believing that they actually stand a legit chance at outshining Luffy this arc (for example, Shin is the MC of Kingdom and he has been completely outshined by Ouhon and Mouten on a few separate occasions, and has outshined them on others. They all share the same goals, and it is anyone's game as for who will reach those goals first.)

Similarly, Sanji and Zoro are not rivals. Sanji has never once in this entire manga accomplished more than Zoro has over the course of an Arc. Hell, the only time Sanji debatably accomplished even as much as Zoro did was back in Arlong Park where Zoro was brutally wounded the entire time, and that's it.

Drawing two characters standing next to each other and competing is not a rivalry. Drawing two characters who actually have a legitimate shot at defeating or outshining the other one is a legit rivalry. Law and Kidd will never outshine Luffy, and Sanji will never outshine Zoro.

This is the unfortunate reality.
 
3 characters all attempting the same goals is not a "rivalry."

A rivalry would be 3 characters with equal or near equal accomplishments and capabilities all attempting the same thing, each having a legitimate shot of pulling that goal off. Shin, Ouhon, and Mouten from Kingdom are a true rivalry, Luffy, Kidd, and Law are not even close to a rivalry.

I'm sure I don't need to emphasize just how far away Law and Kidd are from Luffy as far as accomplishments go, Law got close to defeating Doffy but ultimately failed, and Kidd's best feat post TS is sinking two of Big Mom's ships while Luffy defeated two of her commanders.

Luffy, Kidd, and Law are not real rivals as Kidd and Law have done nothing to warrant us believing that they actually stand a legit chance at outshining Luffy this arc (for example, Shin is the MC of Kingdom and he has been completely outshined by Ouhon and Mouten on a few separate occasions, and has outshined them on others. They all share the same goals, and it is anyone's game as for who will reach those goals first.)

Similarly, Sanji and Zoro are not rivals. Sanji has never once in this entire manga accomplished more than Zoro has over the course of an Arc. Hell, the only time Sanji debatably accomplished even as much as Zoro did was back in Arlong Park where Zoro was brutally wounded the entire time, and that's it.

Drawing two characters standing next to each other and competing is not a rivalry. Drawing two characters who actually have a legitimate shot at defeating or outshining the other one is a legit rivalry. Law and Kidd will never outshine Luffy, and Sanji will never outshine Zoro.

This is the unfortunate reality.
Zoro and Luffy were true rivals. They even fought like rivals and were in worst gen 💀
 
Sanji boys really can't digest the idea of their fav to be weak shiiish.

Despite his poor showings vs a guy weaker than the commanders.
What do you mean poor showings? Page one was an ancient zoan and yet Sanji was able to tank his attacks(despite being thrown a whole city block), as well as being able to make him scream out in pain with a base kick.

its honestly a good feat. Sanji has many good feats. Its just that nobody ever appreciates them because everything Sanji does is compared to zoro by both his fans and his haters. It makes it to where people act like Sanji is "taking Ls" anytime he doesn't split a mountain like zoro.

I feel like it ruins your enjoyment of the series when you compare everything sanji does to zoro and then act like Oda hates sanji because sanji is always overshadowed by zoro. Like lol, he was always overshadowed by zoro.
 
If Pageone 1 is really alive ( most likely)
Then Sanji words makes 0 sense ( taking an enemy out).

Anyway Sanji might face him in Onigashima and later fight Queen or someone else
I mean, yeah it's true that Sanji didn't reduce the enemy's number like he said he would, but uh.....Did people really expect Sanji to kill Page One? When has a Straw Hat (other than probably East Blue bounty hunter Zoro or Robin when she was with baroque works) actually killed their opponent in Eiichiro Oda's shonen manga?
 

Finalbeta

Zoro Worshipper
What do you mean poor showings? Page one was an ancient zoan and yet Sanji was able to tank his attacks(despite being thrown a whole city block), as well as being able to make him scream out in pain with a base kick.

its honestly a good feat. Sanji has many good feats. Its just that nobody ever appreciates them because everything Sanji does is compared to zoro by both his fans and his haters. It makes it to where people act like Sanji is "taking Ls" anytime he doesn't split a mountain like zoro.

I feel like it ruins your enjoyment of the series when you compare everything sanji does to zoro and then act like Oda hates sanji because sanji is always overshadowed by zoro. Like lol, he was always overshadowed by zoro.
PO wasn't that strong, anyone on Jack's level would low or mid diff that man, there's no way of the opposite. :kayneshrug:

PO might be stronger than Vergo but going by logic the gap can't be large.
 
PO wasn't that strong, anyone on Jack's level would low or mid diff that man, there's no way of the opposite. :kayneshrug:

PO might be stronger than Vergo but going by logic the gap can't be large.
No I agree on that, what I disagree with is the idea that Sanji somehow had poor showing simply because he didn't neg diff a veteran tier.

He was still undoubtably portrayed as stronger than Page, which given how strong Page was, should put sanji within the range of YC4. Not to mention he still hasn't used hell memories outside of that one time against wadatsumi in which mind you, he only used a single kick.
 
I don't wanna turn your thread into a Mihawk debate but bear with me for a moment here.

If you think Mihawk is Roger level then could you see the following scenarios playing out in you're head:
1. Roger gets his attack deflected by Jozu
2. Roger goes at pre skip Luffy with intent to kill but fails
3. Roger gets blocked and stalled by Vista for a while
4. Roger gets stopped by and clashes with Crocodile

Now, just so we're clear, I'm not saying that if Mihawk wanted to he couldn't wipe the floor with evryone I just named. He absolutely could. But is it not manga fact that all those scenarios I mentioned happened to Mihawk at Marineford? Could you honestly picture Gol. D fucking Roger, the guy that low diffed Kaido level Oden, in these scenarios?

On the topic of Mihawk being Zoro's final opponent, I don't think that alone warrants him being stronger than roger. If Zoro is to Luffy what Rayleigh is to Roger then there's no basis that EOS Zoro would be stronger than Prime Roger. Not saying it won't happen, I'm saying there's no real basis as of yet.
I think its more of a game of personalities at least that seems to be consistent in One Piece based on combat showings of different combatants.
One glaring example is Rookie Kozuki Oden vs Prime Whitebeard where they seemingly were presented as too combatant on equal standing. Worth noting their clash even had some intensity to it.

But then we saw Gol D Roger whose personality is not that of someone who pulls a lot of punches absolutely humiliated Rookie Kozuki in a single attack and the impact of said attack launched Oden a good distance. Granted Oden was durable enough to tank the said attack without any real visible damage.

Now if we were to give Roger Mihawk's personality of not hunting Rabbits with Cannons, meaning not overexerting one self when overexertion if not required, lets see how the scenarios you presented play out.

1.I think it was heavily implied that diamond is the hardest element a swordsman can master to cut perhaps even harder than cutting sea prism stone. And here we have Hawk Eye testing waters against Shirohige New Gate by sending a semi casual nameless flying slash that gets weaker with distance from across the island to perhaps invite him to a fight, got stopped by Yonko's 2nd or 3rd commander with a fruit that is anti swordsmanship with a great deal of struggle and still end up in few bruises? Do I see Diamond Jozu with his entire body blocking a semi casual flying slash from Gol D Roger? But of course I do. Jozu's durability and physical strength rivals top tiers.

2.I don't think it was implied that Mihawk is attacking Luffy with an actual intent to kill as he was seemingly pulling great deal of punches. Instead it was more of an ordeal for Luffy, a test rather which if Luffy survives he passes said test and if he dies he fails said test. And Luffy did pass when Mihawk had an internal monologue while fighting, pointing to Luffy's scary ability of making people follow him that saved him from Mihawk not Luffy's combat might. It is same Luffy who walked out alive after challenging all three admirals at the same time. Yes I do believe same situation can occur with Gol D Roger.

3.Vista vs Mihawk was a clash that seemingly had no more intensity than an off panel clash that Zoro vs Fujitora had and it seemed less intense than the clash Oden and Prime Whitebeard, Gol D Roger's equal had. Worth noting a good deal of that fight, Mihawk was thinking about Luffy, not paying proper attention to Vista. I can see flower blade being able to pull the feat that Rookie Oden pulled against New Gate as I don't see Rookie Oden as that far above Prime Flower Blade Vista if at all.

4.Mihawk and Crocodile didn't have a clash, Crocodile seemingly tried attacking Mihawk and Mihawk deflected it and that was that. So not much to go by here.

Now there are few points in Mihawk's favor like Mihawk's casual nameless attack being one of the biggest feats in manga, and rivaling power of gura gura itself. It seemed superior than Gol D Roger's named attack on Oden which he tanked quite easily


Fact that Mihawk is one of the only two men in history to have armament Haki so strong that his blade has permanently turned black. Gol D Roger despite coating his blade in Ryou constantly, has failed to make his blade permanently black. That implies Mihawk's armament is better than Roger's.

Hawk Eye also has the title of Strongest Swordsman in the world but Roger doesn't despite being a Kenshi himself and the fact that Roronoa claimed he wants to be strongest swordsman ever and Mihawk is best candidate for Zoro's final challenge before him reaching his prime.

Though Roger's pirate king title demands respect so I place Roger slightly above Mihawk.
 
Hey man, I do appreciate you being my first real debate on this forum.:sabogood: Also, unlike some of the Mihawk fanboys I've debated with, I'm glad you're chill and not toxic to debate with lol.

I'll just agree to disagree with you since I doubt I could convince you, but I do wanna respond to some of your points before I call it quits.
1.I think it was heavily implied that diamond is the hardest element a swordsman can master to cut perhaps even harder than cutting sea prism stone. And here we have Hawk Eye testing waters against Shirohige New Gate by sending a semi casual nameless flying slash that gets weaker with distance from across the island to perhaps invite him to a fight, got stopped by Yonko's 2nd or 3rd commander with a fruit that is anti swordsmanship with a great deal of struggle and still end up in few bruises? Do I see Diamond Jozu with his entire body blocking a semi casual flying slash from Gol D Roger? But of course I do. Jozu's durability and physical strength rivals top tiers.
I personally don't. At all. Diamond or not, I think even a casual slash from Roger would decimate Jozu. This is a matter of perspective though.
2.I don't think it was implied that Mihawk is attacking Luffy with an actual intent to kill as he was seemingly pulling great deal of punches. Instead it was more of an ordeal for Luffy, a test rather which if Luffy survives he passes said test and if he dies he fails said test. And Luffy did pass when Mihawk had an internal monologue while fighting, pointing to Luffy's scary ability of making people follow him that saved him from Mihawk not Luffy's combat might. It is same Luffy who walked out alive after challenging all three admirals at the same time. Yes I do believe same situation can occur with Gol D Roger.
Didn't he explicitly say in the manga "My apologies Red hair, but I'll be going at him with the intention to kill" or something along those lines? I could be wrong but right before they fought I'm pretty sure he said something like that.
3.Vista vs Mihawk was a clash that seemingly had no more intensity than an off panel clash that Zoro vs Fujitora had and it seemed less intense than the clash Oden and Prime Whitebeard, Gol D Roger's equal had. Worth noting a good deal of that fight, Mihawk was thinking about Luffy, not paying proper attention to Vista. I can see flower blade being able to pull the feat that Rookie Oden pulled against New Gate as I don't see Rookie Oden as that far above Prime Flower Blade Vista if at all.
I wasn't really asking if prime vista could replicate Oden's feat tho. Oden's performance against Roger was much worse than Vista's performance against Mihawk so there's no point in specifically comparing Oden and Vista. I just don't think that Vista could stall Roger like he stalled Mihawk. Also Oden was not a rookie at that point. When he fought Roger he had already been with the WB pirates for four entire years.
4.Mihawk and Crocodile didn't have a clash, Crocodile seemingly tried attacking Mihawk and Mihawk deflected it and that was that. So not much to go by here.
Pretty sure Mihawk tried attacking Luffy and Crocodile saved him by deflecting his attack. The manga panel is somewhat ambigious on the issue tbf whereas in the anime it's a straight up clash.

Hawk Eye also has the title of Strongest Swordsman in the world but Roger doesn't despite being a Kenshi himself and the fact that Roronoa claimed he wants to be strongest swordsman ever and Mihawk is best candidate for Zoro's final challenge before him reaching his prime.
That's because Roger's dead bro lol. Mihawk def did not have the title when Roger was still alive.

Like I said, this will be my final post on this debate (don't wanna have you're page One and Sanji thread become a Mihawk debate forever lmao).
 
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