Questions & Mysteries Why is Zoro much more relevant than Luffy to the fandom?
- Thread starter ShishioIsBack
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By Oda's own power level system is where he shattered any preconceived notion that Zoro was any longer comparable to Luffy since Whiskey Peak. Doriki wasn't just thrown into the manga on some whim without meaning to add any new substantial information for the readers to be able to draw upon and reach new conclusions.
You have Luffy and Zoro (Who mind you is two years older than Luffy) who have gone their entire lives up until that point and reached the level of strength they were at. Zoro's aim is to be the World's Strongest Swordsman, and by all accounts he trains vigorously to do so. Luffy doesn't do that, but he is that strong regardless of the clear gap in the way each of them train or rather don't.
So up until BoS, you have these two at near equal strength. Luffy progresses in strength as he fights stronger opponents, in which he is constantly given strong opponents to overcome. Zoro progresses differently, in which he trains to become stronger AFTER he fights his opponents.
So even with these two things going on at the same time, you could argue that Zoro trains and gets stronger, while Luffy fights strong opponents and gets stronger. BUT THEN, Enies Lobby happens and Luffy invents gears, which essentially doubles his stats across the board. This is what allows for Luffy to fight and defeat a man who is twice as powerful as the man Zoro had to fight and defeat.
Zoro then continues to do the same exact thing he always does, as does Luffy, but the difference is, Luffy now has a mode that doubles his stats. Zoro has zero answer to close the gap anymore. His stats do not magically double as well, just because Luffy invented gears. It does no work like that.
THEN, 3D2Y happens, and for the first time Luffy does something that he's never had to do before in his entire life, yet still remained as strong as Zoro (Pre Gears) and that is Luffy went away and actually seriously trained for two years straight. This is where the second gap of strength increase occurred. He mastered his gears, invented a whole new gear, mastered the basics of three forms of Haki etc...
Zoro does not scale to that. Luffy doubled his stats halfway through the story, and finally went and seriously trained, which is something Zoro had been doing his entire life, with a two year gap in age in comparison to Luffy. So not only does Zoro progress at a slower rate than Luffy does, he didn't double his stats like Luffy did, and he hasn't trained seriously since the timeskip until he got to Wano.
Luffy left Zoro in the dust once Enies Lobby happened, and continued to do so with constantly becoming stronger after the timeskip, while Zoro sat back and did nothing to boost his strength after training with Mihawk.
You have Luffy and Zoro (Who mind you is two years older than Luffy) who have gone their entire lives up until that point and reached the level of strength they were at. Zoro's aim is to be the World's Strongest Swordsman, and by all accounts he trains vigorously to do so. Luffy doesn't do that, but he is that strong regardless of the clear gap in the way each of them train or rather don't.
So up until BoS, you have these two at near equal strength. Luffy progresses in strength as he fights stronger opponents, in which he is constantly given strong opponents to overcome. Zoro progresses differently, in which he trains to become stronger AFTER he fights his opponents.
So even with these two things going on at the same time, you could argue that Zoro trains and gets stronger, while Luffy fights strong opponents and gets stronger. BUT THEN, Enies Lobby happens and Luffy invents gears, which essentially doubles his stats across the board. This is what allows for Luffy to fight and defeat a man who is twice as powerful as the man Zoro had to fight and defeat.
Zoro then continues to do the same exact thing he always does, as does Luffy, but the difference is, Luffy now has a mode that doubles his stats. Zoro has zero answer to close the gap anymore. His stats do not magically double as well, just because Luffy invented gears. It does no work like that.
THEN, 3D2Y happens, and for the first time Luffy does something that he's never had to do before in his entire life, yet still remained as strong as Zoro (Pre Gears) and that is Luffy went away and actually seriously trained for two years straight. This is where the second gap of strength increase occurred. He mastered his gears, invented a whole new gear, mastered the basics of three forms of Haki etc...
Zoro does not scale to that. Luffy doubled his stats halfway through the story, and finally went and seriously trained, which is something Zoro had been doing his entire life, with a two year gap in age in comparison to Luffy. So not only does Zoro progress at a slower rate than Luffy does, he didn't double his stats like Luffy did, and he hasn't trained seriously since the timeskip until he got to Wano.
Luffy left Zoro in the dust once Enies Lobby happened, and continued to do so with constantly becoming stronger after the timeskip, while Zoro sat back and did nothing to boost his strength after training with Mihawk.
Zoro attracts more people to discuss because there’s more controversial topics you can discuss about him than Luffy .
Luffy is overall more talked but in forums and discord etc it’s more Zoro because of the entire Z VS S debates .
The last time when people talked nonstop about Luffy was around the end of WCI because of the Katakuri fight and if he is now an emperor or not .
Luffy is overall more talked but in forums and discord etc it’s more Zoro because of the entire Z VS S debates .
The last time when people talked nonstop about Luffy was around the end of WCI because of the Katakuri fight and if he is now an emperor or not .
See that's the problem, you don't even seem to know the meaning of scaling.
How did Oda shatter that scaling by giving Luffy an opponent significantly stronger than Zoro's opponent? When has that not been a case? Was that not a case before Luffy fought Zoro?
For me to further proceed, I would have to break it down feat by feat because when feats are available, scaling doesn't need to be done, both pre TS Zoro and pre TS Luffy's limits are known and you seem to be hell bent on denying the scaling. Because you yourself are trying to destroy scaling through feats, "Luffy fought stronger opponents" because if you are not using feats, then what does "Stronger opponents" even mean?
So lets break it down,
Kaku had Doriki half as much as Lucci without his blades in his base form
-Prove to me where is it stated both Lucci and Kaku get same amount of boost post devil fruit?
-Doriki measures physical strength by power of an attack, did Kaku use his swords when hitting Fukuro? Swordsmanship is combination of sword skill and technique and Kaku with his swordsmanship could produce attack stronger than anything Lucci produce
-Ashura Zoro vs Kaku was a neg diff fight for Zoro as he flexed and destroyed Kaku's strongest attack then he one shot Kaku. What would have happened if first thing Zoro did was go Ashura? Would he get low diff victory?
-Luffy vs Lucci was an extreme diff win for Luffy and some of Lucci's most lethal attacks had no effect on Luffy and he won by power of plot.
Then Zoro got a MASSIVE power up in the next arc with Shushui, a sword that raised Zoro's attack power so much that it absorbed attacks from other two blades, meaning one sword is producing more power than other two combined. And through out Thriller Bark, Zoro showed better stats, he was casually hurting Oars, his Sanzen Sekkai produced enough power to move 70 meter Oars from his place and produce a giant gash which is an EXCEPTIONAL feat for that time.
And he also got speed buff when he is dancing around speed focused certified High Tier Kuma's attacks
And he displayed better endurance. So if we truly go by feats Zoro would defeat Luffy in Thriller Bark.
But then we have scaling, just around TB, after Enies Lobby, when Doriki happaned Oda released a data book stating the following
"Zoro is equal to Luffy and deserves to be Vice Captain"
if Oda truly intended for that scaling he himself established by having Luffy and Zoro fight, BREAK, then he why would he allow that data book to release? Is he trying to spread false information? Is he dishonest? Are editors biased towards Zoro?
You need to pick a side, what do you wanna use, Scaling or Feats?
Because at this point I feel like you are expecting me to use Scaling when it favors your agenda and feats also when it favors your agenda.
What do you think? @BigChungus2018
I feel like you are dishonest
Because in TB Base Zoro's attack power was comparable to G3 Luffy's when he got Shushui and Ashura is far stronger than that.
DJ doesn't even compare, Oda portrayed it as equals if not weaker than 108 pound canon.
How did Oda shatter that scaling by giving Luffy an opponent significantly stronger than Zoro's opponent? When has that not been a case? Was that not a case before Luffy fought Zoro?
For me to further proceed, I would have to break it down feat by feat because when feats are available, scaling doesn't need to be done, both pre TS Zoro and pre TS Luffy's limits are known and you seem to be hell bent on denying the scaling. Because you yourself are trying to destroy scaling through feats, "Luffy fought stronger opponents" because if you are not using feats, then what does "Stronger opponents" even mean?
So lets break it down,
Kaku had Doriki half as much as Lucci without his blades in his base form
-Prove to me where is it stated both Lucci and Kaku get same amount of boost post devil fruit?
-Doriki measures physical strength by power of an attack, did Kaku use his swords when hitting Fukuro? Swordsmanship is combination of sword skill and technique and Kaku with his swordsmanship could produce attack stronger than anything Lucci produce
-Ashura Zoro vs Kaku was a neg diff fight for Zoro as he flexed and destroyed Kaku's strongest attack then he one shot Kaku. What would have happened if first thing Zoro did was go Ashura? Would he get low diff victory?
-Luffy vs Lucci was an extreme diff win for Luffy and some of Lucci's most lethal attacks had no effect on Luffy and he won by power of plot.
Then Zoro got a MASSIVE power up in the next arc with Shushui, a sword that raised Zoro's attack power so much that it absorbed attacks from other two blades, meaning one sword is producing more power than other two combined. And through out Thriller Bark, Zoro showed better stats, he was casually hurting Oars, his Sanzen Sekkai produced enough power to move 70 meter Oars from his place and produce a giant gash which is an EXCEPTIONAL feat for that time.
And he also got speed buff when he is dancing around speed focused certified High Tier Kuma's attacks
And he displayed better endurance. So if we truly go by feats Zoro would defeat Luffy in Thriller Bark.
But then we have scaling, just around TB, after Enies Lobby, when Doriki happaned Oda released a data book stating the following
"Zoro is equal to Luffy and deserves to be Vice Captain"
if Oda truly intended for that scaling he himself established by having Luffy and Zoro fight, BREAK, then he why would he allow that data book to release? Is he trying to spread false information? Is he dishonest? Are editors biased towards Zoro?
You need to pick a side, what do you wanna use, Scaling or Feats?
Because at this point I feel like you are expecting me to use Scaling when it favors your agenda and feats also when it favors your agenda.
What do you think? @BigChungus2018
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I feel like you are dishonest
Because in TB Base Zoro's attack power was comparable to G3 Luffy's when he got Shushui and Ashura is far stronger than that.
DJ doesn't even compare, Oda portrayed it as equals if not weaker than 108 pound canon.
Jesus Christ, you just completely dismissed everything I said about Gears, and how Luffy never trains and Zoro always does, yet Zoro was never able to create any kind of gap in strength, and that Luffy finally goes off and trains for two years. Then created a whole new gear on top of the ones he had, and constantly got PU's after the timeskip, while Zoro got jack squat.
The one who doesn't know how to scale is you. You think scaling means "when one character gets stronger, the other character gets stronger too."
The one who doesn't know how to scale is you. You think scaling means "when one character gets stronger, the other character gets stronger too."
Looks the opposite to me because while with Mihawk, Zoro boosted his base stats so much that he is a threat to commander level opponents even without Ashura while Luffy focused most of his training on Gears.
If we truly go by stats displayed, at least before Katakuri fight, it would look like Base Zoro would low diff G2/G3 Luffy.
He has displayed power so much greater than G3 Luffy, its laughable to even talk about and he has shown good deal greater combat speed than Luffy.
If we truly go by stats displayed, at least before Katakuri fight, it would look like Base Zoro would low diff G2/G3 Luffy.
He has displayed power so much greater than G3 Luffy, its laughable to even talk about and he has shown good deal greater combat speed than Luffy.
I think that like @Celestial D. Dragon said, the two started off close in strength in east blue. However I don't think enies lobby is really where Luffy blows zoro out of the water.
I think the Luffy x Zoro gap grew overtime and was mainly caused by 2 different events
impel down/marineford created a decent gap between Luffy and Zoro. It more or less cemented Luffy as the undeniable captain of his own crew. After marineford, you never hear the whole "Zoro should be captain" or "Zoro is strong enough to be captain" shit from anybody in the series.
But in dressrosa, Luffy and Zoro were still somewhat close. But I think WCI is what really cemented Luffy above all of his crew. With WCI, Luffy was shown to have 2 other forms of G4 apart from boundman as well as one form of advanced haki by the arc's end. In defeating not one but two yonko commanders coming out from an arc where he beat one of the most notorious shichibukai, I think putting him on zoro's level just fails to make sense anymore.
We're comparing a 1.5 bil man to a dude who is worth 320 mil.
I don't think Luffy will ever be able to low diff 1 shot Zoro, but I think that at the moment, he could probably mid diff Zoro. And that's a gap that will most likely stick till the EoS
I think the Luffy x Zoro gap grew overtime and was mainly caused by 2 different events
- impel down/marineford
- WCI
impel down/marineford created a decent gap between Luffy and Zoro. It more or less cemented Luffy as the undeniable captain of his own crew. After marineford, you never hear the whole "Zoro should be captain" or "Zoro is strong enough to be captain" shit from anybody in the series.
But in dressrosa, Luffy and Zoro were still somewhat close. But I think WCI is what really cemented Luffy above all of his crew. With WCI, Luffy was shown to have 2 other forms of G4 apart from boundman as well as one form of advanced haki by the arc's end. In defeating not one but two yonko commanders coming out from an arc where he beat one of the most notorious shichibukai, I think putting him on zoro's level just fails to make sense anymore.
We're comparing a 1.5 bil man to a dude who is worth 320 mil.
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I don't think Luffy will ever be able to low diff 1 shot Zoro, but I think that at the moment, he could probably mid diff Zoro. And that's a gap that will most likely stick till the EoS
Jesus Christ, you just completely dismissed everything I said about Gears, and how Luffy never trains and Zoro always does, yet Zoro was never able to create any kind of gap in strength, and that Luffy finally goes off and trains for two years. Then created a whole new gear on top of the ones he had, and constantly got PU's after the timeskip, while Zoro got jack squat.
The one who doesn't know how to scale is you. You think scaling means "when one character gets stronger, the other character gets stronger too."
The one who doesn't know how to scale is you. You think scaling means "when one character gets stronger, the other character gets stronger too."
Luffy unlocked gears was one way of showing he got stronger, but we got no concrete event happening in manga that would show unlocking Gears resulted in Oda shattering his already existing scaling.
Instead we got Ashura Zoro neg diffing Kaku and still not showing his upper limit.
How do you know G2/G3 Luffy is gonna beat Ashura? And if you don't then feats comparison is still up in the air, and if its up in the air, how does it break the well established scaling?
Then Zoro got one more MASSIVE power up, getting Shushui was as much of a power up for Zoro as gears is for Luffy, at least to pre TS Zoro when Haki wasn't a thing.
And why would Oda release a databook stating Zoro and Luffy are equal after Luffy learned gears if he truly intended for Luffy with Gears to surpass Zoro?
In Enies Lobby all M3 got exceptional power ups, massive jumps, Sanji got DJ, Zoro got Ashura and Luffy got G2/G3. And Zoro with Ashura would neg diff Zoro without Ashura as he neg diffed kaku
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I mean gap between 1.5 Bill and 320 Mil is literally infinitely smaller than gap between 20 million and zero.
Yet Zoro with 0 matches Luffy with 20 mil
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It almost feels like you are using feats right now, because Gears are not a portrayal.
Portrayal would be Luffy or someone else claiming Luffy has unlocked Gears and surpassed his first mate.
So are you using feats? Do you wanna use feats? @Celestial D. Dragon
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Lemme try to understand what you guys are saying..Are you saying Luffy getting power ups breaks well established and heavily supported scaling of equality between Luffy and Zoro shown in manga and supported by databooks?
@Monkey D Theories @Celestial D. Dragon
Then by that logic Zoro got a power up in Alabasta, you know Iai Jutsu is essentially a form of swordsmanship so Zoro evolved as a swordsman where as Luffy remained exactly where he was. His Haki didn't exist pre TS so there is no sense in it blooming plus we had no impactcation of him improving.
Then Zoro got another power up in Skypea where he unlocked flying slashes and further evolved as a swordsman while Luffy faced an opponent who couldn't even hurt him. No reasonable means of powering up there.
So now are we to assuming Zoro is more than a level beyond Luffy?
Why is it that you guys don't give Zoro his just due but with Luffy you do?
I am willing to ignore all that due to well established scaling supported by data books. I don't think it makes sense for author to allow data book to release with a false detail like that, that he himself disagrees with.
What is Luffys answer to Zoros superior speed and lethality with Iai Jutsu when he can only match Zoros prior inferior speed?
What is Luffys answer to Zoros ranged lethality when he had to stay in close quarters with Zoro to stop his swords at a non sharp edge?
Is that a checkmate or you guys have a rebuttal?
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Doriki ONLY MEASURES PHYSICAL STATS. We can argue till we are blue in the face what the effects Devil Fruits have on a Doriki user , but from a pure physical stat perspective, Base Rob Lucci >> Base Kaku. This isn't even up for debate. Jabra even stated that once he uses his devil fruit he would hold an advantage over Kaku. So that tells us right there that just simply being a Zoan Devil Fruit user has no bearing on base physical stats. So if Jabra gets a stat increase by going into Zoan mode, and Kaku gets a stat increase by going into Zoan mode, then guess what? Lucci does as well. So unless you want to try and argue that Kaku's DF gives him a 4x boost, and Lucci's Zoan form barely gives him any boost at all, then there is nothing left to discuss here. Lucci is by far and above Kaku both in and out of Zoan form.
And you keep bringing up the databook like that is suppose to mean something. All you're doing is dismissing the clear indicators that Oda has laid out within the story itself for the readers that showcases Luffy widening the gap between him and Zoro. Like Ashura and Shusui is supposed to compensate for G2, G3, G4, FS, Advanced Armament, plus two years of training which is something Luffy never had to do, while Zoro with constantly training was never able to put any gap between him and Luffy. Sorry, but no, I will take what I can visually see unfolding before my eyes within the story itself over a compilation of statistics created by Oda's former editors any day of the week. If I wanted other peoples input to sway my opinion of One Piece, then I might as well be letting everyone on this forum reach my conclusions for me.
There are so many flaws I don't even know where to begin.
You tell me where to begin
-Flaws with your sentiment regarding Doriki
-Flaws with your interpretation of Jabura statement
-Flaws with your interpretation of Luffys gears vs Zoros training
-Flaws with your interpretation of Luffys overall progress
-Flaws in you using Doriki as an argument for Luffy and Zoros power dynamics?
Where should I begin?
You tell me where to begin
-Flaws with your sentiment regarding Doriki
-Flaws with your interpretation of Jabura statement
-Flaws with your interpretation of Luffys gears vs Zoros training
-Flaws with your interpretation of Luffys overall progress
-Flaws in you using Doriki as an argument for Luffy and Zoros power dynamics?
Where should I begin?
