Not really from what I saw, Kimetsu received a fad boost because of the anime and the sales of all its volumes skyrocketed in 2009-2012. They'll go down eventually. Point being the writing quality had nothing to do with it. It became a fad, like Marineford.
does luffy need development? i mean he has his ideals set.. he goes his own way around dealing with things.. more like he is the source that develops and characterizes others around him and sometimes vice versa
Luffy is character that is very hard to interpret what he's thinking from time to time, he doesn't emanate how he thinks about certain things and notions for them to really change. ig you understand what character development HERE means... basically preconceived mentality and notions getting rectified and what not
This is not to say that luffy never had character development in... we saw that during MF war and in Water 7.
But who would have thought that he holds his cook to such regards that he'd would humiliate himself to get back from the hierarchy he wants to conquer..?
no one.. well even nami played zoro's role in making luffy realize that sanji has no right to do what he has done to his captain in the state luffy was in... but luffy articulated a side he never showed about sanji..
that examples is more of a character development as in unveiling luffy's feelings and regards for sanji..
But does he a character development at this point?
its actually pretty unnecessary and redundant considering the scarce plot set up for such a thing.
The Japanese amazon opinions aren't great. All the top reviews of the most recent volume are negative, claiming Oda's dragging the arc, wasting time etc.
And what's happening with OP is not in any way comparable to Kimetsu. KnY sales increased every volume and it finished at its peak. OP's individual volumes don't even sell 2 mil anymore
its all just people being bitchy about things they want to transpire but aren't.. its not that the arc it too long snd he is dragging it.. its just has various plots that require simultaneous development that can't happen in a single volume.. that precisely why wano is separated into acts i reckon..
Being a fan like OP is a bit like a religion at this point. You read 1000 chapters of something then it's safe to say you're a super fan. Or at least you were at some point. OP will always have a significant level of popularity, regardless of how bad it gets. Nonetheless, the decrease in interest and attention is notable. People aren't as into it as they once were, despite the huge pushes Oda and Shueshia have been making to boost it.
Not really from what I saw, Kimetsu received a fad boost because of the anime and the sales of all its volumes skyrocketed in 2009-2012. They'll go down eventually. Point being the writing quality had nothing to do with it. It became a fad, like Marineford.
Yeah, that's not the case at all. Kimetsu has become one of the most popular manga in history. A social phenomenon and the series is only just beginning in anime format. It's far more popular than OP ever was, even at its peak. The manga ended a year ago so obviously the manga sales are going to decrease as there is nothing new to sell, but the individual volume sales themselves only ever increased, volume after volume.
The quality of the series had everything to do with it otherwise it would've seen a little boost whilst it was new and trendy but then died down to irrelevance.
its all just people being bitchy about things they want to transpire but aren't.. its not that the arc it too long snd he is dragging it.. its just has various plots that require simultaneous development that can't happen in a single volume.. that precisely why wano is separated into acts i reckon..
Considering how hype literally every chapter it gets around the World I'd still disagree since its a massive cult in Japan and incredibly popular everywhere else.
Sure, its not at its peak, which was Marineford hype, its still giga popular. So pointing out its not what it used to be as if there's a massive difference is pointless. It still amongst the top of the sales charts and the following is still huge.
Yeah, that's not the case at all. Kimetsu has become one of the most popular anime in history. A social phenomenon and the series is only just beginning in anime format. It's far more popular than OP ever was, even at its peak. The manga ended a year ago so obviously the manga sales are going to decrease as there is nothing new to sell, but the individual volume sales themselves only ever increased, volume after volume.
Seems like you missed the entire point of my post yet again. I'm not comparing their popularity, I'm comparing what happened to them as a fad. I'd agree Kimetsu's peak was bigger than OP's peak but the fact that OP will always beat it in terms of popular in the long term will remain cemented. It was a very short fad, whereas OP beats every single manga out there when it comes to overall popularity in general with a few exceptions.
Nevertheless Kimetsu vs OP or OP "not being good in terms of popularity anymore" isn't the point of the conversation so I'd really prefer if we set aside from that, I was trying more to address the "execution has gone to shit because it doesn't sell as much as it did in Marineford" part of the post of the other guy.
That is not how one should deduce whether OP lost fans or not.. you aren't taking pirated chapters into consideration since the world had digitally grown so much..even after that, OP sales had still been fairly consistent with these manga sales and will surely loose those sales as chapters shift from hard copies to digital platforms which are an alternative being used by the vast numbers out there... this switch from hard copies to digital doesn't provide any logical rationale statistically that OP had lost followers on not.
In addition to that, OP was at its climax during 2009-2010 with Marine Ford War in play back in the days so that certainly would attract hype for a title this infamous...
The story was at its apex for 3 consecutive arcs and the progression was insane.. this same pace was impeccably transitioned to the timeskip which slowed in increments for half a decade. Then there is external competition with other mangas and again digital chapters being dominant that would ought decrease volume sales with the platform the likes of VIZ.
you see even with such low volumes the sales have been consistent throughout when you compare and contrast between the Old volumes and new volumes as a whole..
the new volumes have performed exceptionally consistently.. and have seen growth.
So now that we agree Kimetsu > OP since it sold more we can all agree OP > every other manga out there like HxH/Bleach/etc since they failed to do what OP did as well.
Considering how hype literally every chapter it gets around the World I'd still disagree since its a massive cult in Japan and incredibly popular everywhere else.
Sure, its not at its peak, which was Marineford hype, its still giga popular. So pointing out its not what it used to be as if there's a massive difference is pointless. It still amongst the top of the sales charts and the following is still huge.
Seems like you missed the entire point of my post yet again. I'm not comparing their popularity, I'm comparing what happened to them as a fad. I'd agree Kimetsu's peak was bigger than OP's peak but the fact that OP will always beat it in terms of popular in the long term will remain cemented. It was a very short fad, whereas OP beats every single manga out there when it comes to overall popularity in general with a few exceptions.
Nevertheless Kimetsu vs OP or OP "not being good in terms of popularity anymore" isn't the point of the conversation so I'd really prefer if we set aside from that, I was trying more to address the "execution has gone to shit because it doesn't sell as much as it did in Marineford" part of the post of the other guy.
Hype? You live in a bubble dude wake up. The hype you see is only because you are inside of a bubble from the remainers OP fans that actually think the manga is still great. Put a step outside this bubble and you will see the whole world thinking otherwise.
Hype? You live in a bubble dude wake up. The hype you see is only because you are inside of a bubble from the remainers OP fans that actually think the manga is still great. Put a step outside this bubble and you will see the whole world thinking otherwise.
OP manages to go worldwide trending on twitter every few chapters nowadays. OP is amongst the top in the sales charts. OP has high ratings on basic sites like Amazon. All this shit is as "out of the bubble" as it gets.
Where are YOU getting this "whole world thinking otherwise" trash from, Worstgen? I'm the last person you should be saying that lives in a bubble. You seem to think the few hundreds of posters on this website represent the entire world when this website is the farthest from what the average fans think. The fact that Luffy is the most popular character in the polls and characters like Sanji and Law are in the top 5 whereas this is a heavily Zoro-biased forum says enough at the amount of disconnect the place has. Hell, even places like Reddit are better places to take the average consensus of an OP fan since its an extremely popular website globally.
Please tell me where this "out of the bubble" exists where the entire world thinks OP has gone to trash.
So now that we agree Kimetsu > OP since it sold more we can all agree OP > every other manga out there like HxH/Bleach/etc since they failed to do what OP did as well.
No, never said Kimetsu was better for selling more. I said there is no excuse of digital media and piracy for OP sales dropping over the years. Otherwise would keep the rate of dropping instead of stabilize at 7-9mi per year. But yes, OP is better than HxH and Bleach. But I would never say Superman is better than OP.
Also this is not how you compare things, Kimetsu sold more than OP for one year. Kimetsu has few volumes compared to OP. OP is a 20+ years work. Same thing Batman/Superman that are even older.
OP manages to go worldwide trending on twitter every few chapters nowadays. OP is amongst the top in the sales charts. OP has high ratings on basic sites like Amazon. All this shit is as "out of the bubble" as it gets.
Where are YOU getting this "whole world thinking otherwise" trash from, Worstgen? Lmao. I'm the last person you should be saying that lives in a bubble. Please tell me where this "out of the bubble" exists where the entire world thinks OP has gone to trash. You seem to think the few hundreds of posters on this website represent the entire world when this website is the farthest from what the average fans think.
I introduce to you "Bots". Literally anything can go to trending topics nowadays. Where you from? Europe? If you are from USA you shouldn't be surprised. I'm from Brazil and it's very easy here to mobilize people and some bots to have the trend topic that you want.
Also you are in another discussion, I'm discussing that OP is gettiing worst. This is Current OP x Old OP not OP x any other manga. So doesn't matter if OP is still top sale/rate anything, OP now is worse than it was years ago.
I'd say its massive length is a pretty big factor in driving people away from buying its volumes while Kimetsu only has 23 which people can buy pretty quickly in one go but you don't seem to think the sales in any way represent quality so I guess we're on the same footprint.
You got any proof about "bots" being responsible for OP's sales, popularity on twitter, popularity on sites like reddit, cult-like culture in Japan and everything?
You can't even back that yourself but jump straight to "THAT'S WHAT THE WORLD THINKS!!" and when I ask you to prove how that's what the world thinks you jump to "ANYONE WHO DOESN'T AGREE IS A BOT" or something.
Seriously, if you wanna speak subjectively that YOU think its gone downhill we can easily argue that, but you're making things worse for yourself when you think everyone or most people agree with you on that.
Also, you didn't answer my question. Please tell me where this "out of the bubble" exists where the entire world thinks OP has gone to trash.
OP manages to go worldwide trending on twitter every few chapters nowadays. OP is amongst the top in the sales charts. OP has high ratings on basic sites like Amazon. All this shit is as "out of the bubble" as it gets.
Where are YOU getting this "whole world thinking otherwise" trash from, Worstgen? I'm the last person you should be saying that lives in a bubble. You seem to think the few hundreds of posters on this website represent the entire world when this website is the farthest from what the average fans think. The fact that Luffy is the most popular character in the polls and characters like Sanji and Law are in the top 5 whereas this is a heavily Zoro-biased forum says enough at the amount of disconnect the place has. Hell, even places like Reddit are better places to take the average consensus of an OP fan since its an extremely popular website globally.
Please tell me where this "out of the bubble" exists where the entire world thinks OP has gone to trash.
You just prove the bubble you live. Mentioning Worstgen/Reddit is the bubble you live on. I actually got expelled from Reddit for saying those things about OP that's why I'm here. I'm gladly that here at Worstgen I can talk those things without getting full community hate and ban.
Not sure if even at this forum Zoro fans are the biggest. I see many people enjoying that bullshit Oda is writing to Luffy but this is the only place we can say those things so you get surprised by having so many of us.
Like I said, fans are dropping OP so of course the average will be the ones that are really enjoying and puts Luffy at 1st always. Have you read post-timeskip? Basically 0 development of any other characters other than Luffy? Even Sanji's arc was terrible to him. How can any other characters surpass Luffy in situations like this? Even Zoro can't (not sure about that thing of Sanji fans voting in Luffy so Zoro couldn't surpass him).
Anyway, those polls doesn't mean much. I just voted one or 2 days for example. You can easily set up bots and change results as you want. You had YT content creators mobilizing people to put random characters at 1st place of the day etc.
Considering how hype literally every chapter it gets around the World I'd still disagree since its a massive cult in Japan and incredibly popular everywhere else.
Sure, its not at its peak, which was Marineford hype, its still giga popular. So pointing out its not what it used to be as if there's a massive difference is pointless. It still amongst the top of the sales charts and the following is still huge.
It's not pointless because there really is a significant difference. The newest OP volumes (the Wano ones) are greatly struggling and sometimes completely failing to make 2 mil per volume, which OP used to effortlessly accomplish. And I'm not just talking about during "Marineford hype". Even through Dressrosa and early WCI it was achieving this. Since the end of WCI and even more so during Wano the sales have dipped significantly.
Seems like you missed the entire point of my post yet again. I'm not comparing their popularity, I'm comparing what happened to them as a fad. I'd agree Kimetsu's peak was bigger than OP's peak but the fact that OP will always beat it in terms of popular in the long term will remain cemented. It was a very short fad, whereas OP beats every single manga out there when it comes to overall popularity in general with a few exceptions.
I didn't miss the point, it was just a lacking claim.
What's convinced you into making statements like this "but the fact that OP will always beat it in terms of popular in the long term will remain cemented"? What evidence do you have to support this in any way?
Nevertheless Kimetsu vs OP or OP "not being good in terms of popularity anymore" isn't the point of the conversation so I'd really prefer if we set aside from that, I was trying more to address the "execution has gone to shit because it doesn't sell as much as it did in Marineford" part of the post of the other guy.
OP is popular and will always be popular as a result of its size and how long it's been going on. However that does little to refute the fact that interest and popularity in it IS decreasing and some would point to the quality of the recent content as being a cause of that.
No, I already clarified I don't even bother much with Reddit or Worstgen. But Reddit is much more outside-the-bubble compared to Worstgen if you want to choose between both, however in the end something like Twitter is a better alternative if you want to talk about "outside the bubble", which not-so-strangely you still haven't answered what is. Since it ranks high in the TOC's even if you disregard twitter now.
I see many people enjoying that bullshit Oda is writing to Luffy but this is the only place we can say those things so you get surprised by having so many of us.
I mean, lol. I just said, Worstgen is filled with a lot of reddit rejects. So it tends to be incredibly biased as well. Hell I'd say as far as hating on OP goes this is probably the best place for anyone to go to.
Yeah, lets see. Sanji's character got a lot of development since we went throughout an arc with him pushing his entire crew away to protect them from risk to in Wano where he asks Robin for help and puts her at risk since he trusts her. So that's one. We can go further if you want.
Anyway I'm asking the third time or something, please tell me where this "out of the bubble" exists where the entire world thinks OP has gone to trash.
No, I already clarified I don't even bother much with Reddit or Worstgen. But Reddit is much more outside-the-bubble compared to Worstgen if you want to choose between both, however in the end something like Twitter is a better alternative if you want to talk about "outside the bubble", which not-so-strangely you still haven't answered what is. Since it ranks high in the TOC's even if you disregard twitter now.
I mean, lol. I just said, Worstgen is filled with a lot of reddit rejects. So it tends to be incredibly biased as well. Hell I'd say as far as hating on OP goes this is probably the best place for anyone to go to.
Oh look, finally you give some backing.
Yeah, lets see. Sanji's character got a lot of development since we went throughout an arc with him pushing his entire crew away to protect them from risk to in Wano where he asks Robin for help and puts her at risk since he trusts her. So that's one. We can go further if you want.
You got any evidence?
Anyway I'm asking the third time or something, please tell me where this "out of the bubble" exists where the entire world thinks OP has gone to trash.
Reddit outside the bubble? You are contradicting yourself. You just confirmed that Worstgen is where those who got expelled from Reddit goes. Reddit don't accept anything but good words towards OP, here everybody is free to express their opinions but you say that Reddit is outside the bubble and here not?
Edit: Yeah I agree a bit about Sanji. He had somewhat development, the only Mugiwara probably. His only development was to ask Robin to help him. His "own" arc was terrible to him. And I said about Luffy not because true development himself, his character never had any is the same from chapter 1. But only Luffy is doing things at New World, nobody else.
Reddit outside the bubble? You are contradicting yourself. You just confirmed that Worstgen is where those who got expelled from Reddit goes. Reddit don't accept anything but good words towards OP, here everybody is free to express their opinions but you say that Reddit is outside the bubble and here not?
I didn't say that at all, Reddit and Worstgen are more or less the polar opposites of each other and they're not the best places to look "outside the bubble". I clearly pointed out that despite all that Reddit still has its merit that its a globally popular website on the internet, so its much closer to being "outside the bubble" which a normie-esque guy (which is the average fan) can access.
You didn't really answer my question though, which "outside the bubble" site are you indicating that universally agrees that OP has gone to trash or something?
I would disagree, it was very good to him and focused on his character and core themes. People here probably shit on it because he didn't get any fights but I don't consider that a problem since I don't read One Piece for fights. His character and his fighting abilities are two separate topics.
Regardless of it, "character development" in general is pretty rare in OP outside of Strawhat-centric joining arcs considering the main theme of the crew is retain their personalities and what they are. Robin hasn't changed much as a person after Enies Lobby, Franky hasn't changed much as a person after Enies Lobby, neither have Brook, Chopper, etc. outside of generic themes like bravery.
I didn't say that at all, why aren't you reading what I said? Reddit and Worstgen are more or less the polar opposites of each other and they're not the best places to look "outside the bubble". I clearly pointed out that despite all that Reddit still has its merit that its a globally popular website on the internet, so its much closer to being "outside the bubble" which a normie-esque guy (which is the average fan) can access.
You didn't really answer my question though, which "outside the bubble" site are you indicating that universally agrees that OP has gone to trash or something?
I would disagree, it was very good to him and focused on his character and core themes. People here probably shit on it because he didn't get any fights but I don't consider that a problem since I don't read One Piece for fights. His character and his fighting abilities are two separate topics.
Regardless of it, "character development" in general is pretty rare in OP outside of Strawhat-centric joining arcs considering the main theme of the crew is retain their personalities and what they are. Robin hasn't changed much as a person after Enies Lobby, Franky hasn't changed much as a person after Enies Lobby, neither have Brook, Chopper, etc. outside of generic themes like bravery.
Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc. That's pretty much where the "average fan" is if you're disregarding reddit (which I'd disagree on disregarding, but for the time being we'll agree to disagree).
Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc. That's pretty much where the "average fan" is if you're disregarding reddit (which I'd disagree on disregarding, but for the time being we'll agree to disagree).
One time Reddit is outside the bubble other time isn't. Then you complain to me about not understanding what you say but turns out my missunderstanding was actually the truth about your point of view...
Okay so social media, how you compare OP in social media? The pages, accouns, channels about OP is not outside the bubble for sure. So maybe anime related but not directly to OP?
OP is great for it's background, hard to be out from top 10 animes in any list. But I doubt you to find someone from 2018-Today that will say OP is even top 3. You find pre-2018 for sure.
If you want a simple clarification, its outside the bubble because Reddit by itself a globally popular website like Twitter or Instagram. Whether if its an echo chamber is up to you, but its irrefutable that it has an incredibly popular and active One Piece community which attracts a lot of OP fans on the internet. Even if you're not a fan of its popular subreddit the manga centric subreddit gives OP an incredible amount of credit as well.
You just go by how much fire it gets on the trending or how much attention it gets on the social media with its activity and hype on the official accounts, which is pretty much a lot. But you're the one making the claim that everyone on these sites agree that OP has gone to trash, so I'd like you to give your answer as well.
There is a lot wrong with post TS Luffy, I wanted to make it into a thread but you beat me to it, Stairs-kun... :cheers:
Your thread is a lot tamer than what I intended so I guess Luffy fandom dodged a bullet.
Overall, I think even Luffy fans themselves are having enough of Luffy ruining the story but would never admit it.
One thing I hold against him the most is his plot armor ruining fights and his dumb overconfidence. Oda should look back at pre-TS.
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