Versus Battle Young Kanmei Vs Gyou’Un
- Thread starter SakazOuki
- Start date
Did he though? Perhaps. If he did, I doubt he had much of it.
Bushin lifestyle and discipline of detachment aside, Kan Mei wasn't all that different from Hou Ken. He was singularly self-obsessed and didn't seem to have any friends or comrades he particularly cared about in the brief time we saw him.
A man driven by so little is far too trivial to even consider having weight when drawing comparison to a figure like Ren Pa.
Bushin lifestyle and discipline of detachment aside, Kan Mei wasn't all that different from Hou Ken. He was singularly self-obsessed and didn't seem to have any friends or comrades he particularly cared about in the brief time we saw him.
A man driven by so little is far too trivial to even consider having weight when drawing comparison to a figure like Ren Pa.
Last edited:
Yes, he does.
If there is one general people on this forum really need to reread, it is Kanmei. Hara hyped this guy to the damn moon and I swear people on here just have memory lapses lol.
So yes, Kanmei did have the weight of a Great General. He achieved over a hundred victories for Chu without suffering a single loss before he was even a great general. Even Man’U was hyping Kanmei’s strength out of literally nowhere. To compare Kanmei to Houken is peak ignorance. Houken was literally not a general, Kanmei has the best service record in the history of Kingdom aside from Hakuki.
The whole point of Moubu vs Kanmei was that Kanmei was a true heavyweight Great General who did possess the weight of a Great General, but Moubu beat Kanmei through sheer willpower alone. WorstGen erased this fight from its memory because people on here deluded themselves into thinking characters with weight are unbeatable when Moubu already proved that incorrect.
So yes the character who Fucking one shot a Qin 6 GG does have weight, lol
Kanmei. Does. Have. Weight.
Getting really tired of everyone on this forum assuming only their favorites have weight. Weight is pretty common among top tier generals, even non Great Generals like Gyou’Un and Garyuu have weight.
Getting really tired of everyone on this forum assuming only their favorites have weight. Weight is pretty common among top tier generals, even non Great Generals like Gyou’Un and Garyuu have weight.
So yes, Kanmei did have the weight of a Great General. He achieved over a hundred victories for Chu without suffering a single loss before he was even a great general. Even Man’U was hyping Kanmei’s strength out of literally nowhere. To compare Kanmei to Houken is peak ignorance. Houken was literally not a general, Kanmei has the best service record in the history of Kingdom aside from Hakuki.
The whole point of Moubu vs Kanmei was that Kanmei was a true heavyweight Great General who did possess the weight of a Great General, but Moubu beat Kanmei through sheer willpower alone. WorstGen erased this fight from its memory because people on here deluded themselves into thinking characters with weight are unbeatable when Moubu already proved that incorrect.
So yes the character who Fucking one shot a Qin 6 GG does have weight, lol
Last edited:
Interesting. He never showed it.
You are putting a lot of stock in the observations of a Chu strategist subordinate to Kan Mei, who acknowledges his lack of familiarity, and is proven wrong by the conclusion of the duel.
We know what weight is. It's a strength sourced by consciously carrying the feelings ("fire") of friends and foes alike. That means cherishing people. Valuing allies. Understanding adversaries. Carrying on the will of the fallen. All of that requires an individual to see beyond themselves. It requires having a great deal of empathy, really.
That was not Kan Mei. He did not, to me at at least, come across as someone who felt much for his underlings, or carried the memories of fallen friends with him as an inspiration - he just wasn't that type of person. His strength was real, but it was all him. The source of Kan Mei's strength was his complete and utter belief in his own strength. He was never given a reason to question his own ability, and so neither did those around him, who regarded him as the pinnacle of the strongest military in China.
Mou Bu has his belief in himself, but he - not Kan Mei - also carries the weight of a true Great General. Mou Bu very visibly tapped into that strength more than once in his fight Kan Mei. That was the differentiation between them. The reason why Mou Bu could claim the title of Strongest Man in China.
You are putting a lot of stock in the observations of a Chu strategist subordinate to Kan Mei, who acknowledges his lack of familiarity, and is proven wrong by the conclusion of the duel.
We know what weight is. It's a strength sourced by consciously carrying the feelings ("fire") of friends and foes alike. That means cherishing people. Valuing allies. Understanding adversaries. Carrying on the will of the fallen. All of that requires an individual to see beyond themselves. It requires having a great deal of empathy, really.
That was not Kan Mei. He did not, to me at at least, come across as someone who felt much for his underlings, or carried the memories of fallen friends with him as an inspiration - he just wasn't that type of person. His strength was real, but it was all him. The source of Kan Mei's strength was his complete and utter belief in his own strength. He was never given a reason to question his own ability, and so neither did those around him, who regarded him as the pinnacle of the strongest military in China.
Mou Bu has his belief in himself, but he - not Kan Mei - also carries the weight of a true Great General. Mou Bu very visibly tapped into that strength more than once in his fight Kan Mei. That was the differentiation between them. The reason why Mou Bu could claim the title of Strongest Man in China.
Last edited:
How does one “show” weight exactly? The only way other characters have shown weight is if it is commented on lol. Which is exactly what happened with Kanmei.
No, I’m putting a lot of stock in the definition of weight Ouki gave us, which is that weight is a culmination of one’s military service record. Which is exactly how Jin Ou described Kanmei’s weight. Strength that stemmed from Kanmei’s enormous history as a man of war.
Wait what??? Lmfao
“Weight” does not mean you automatically win the fight dude lmfao, tell me who had more weight between Houken and Duke Hyou
No, it isn’t. This is one aspect of Weight yes but not what it is entirely. Ouki describes Weight as the strength derived from a military service record. IE, the greater and longer your service record, the greater your weight will be.
And Kanmei’s service record is literally unrivaled in this manga bar Haku Ki. Like I said, Kanmei literally defeated Ouki’s peer in overwhelming fashion, lol
No, I’m putting a lot of stock in the definition of weight Ouki gave us, which is that weight is a culmination of one’s military service record. Which is exactly how Jin Ou described Kanmei’s weight. Strength that stemmed from Kanmei’s enormous history as a man of war.
Wait what??? Lmfao
“Weight” does not mean you automatically win the fight dude lmfao, tell me who had more weight between Houken and Duke Hyou
No, it isn’t. This is one aspect of Weight yes but not what it is entirely. Ouki describes Weight as the strength derived from a military service record. IE, the greater and longer your service record, the greater your weight will be.
And Kanmei’s service record is literally unrivaled in this manga bar Haku Ki. Like I said, Kanmei literally defeated Ouki’s peer in overwhelming fashion, lol
The manifestation of weight has been shown by characters finding strength in the feelings they carry for those that make up the source of their weight - friends, foes, comrades, loved ones, rivals, etc.
We saw it multiple times from Ou Ki, finding the strength to both match and overwhelm Hou Ken, in spite of his inferior martial ability and strength.
We've seen it multiple times with Mou Bu when thinking of Mou Ten and Shou Hei Kun during his battles with Kan Mei and Man'U.
Kyou Kai demonstrated it when the strength of her weight allowed her to go deeper into her trance than even Yuu Ren was capable of, without losing herself.
Shin has never shown a clearer example of weight than when he slew Hou Ken at Shukai.
There are many clear examples of weight "kicking in" as it were. They don't always translate to victory. Go Kei, Rin Ko, Mou Gou, Duke Hyou, Kei Sha, Chou Ga Ryuu, Gyou'Un - there any many who tapped into the strength of their weight and still lost the fight.
This is less concrete, but I believe especially charismatic generals like Ri Boku, YTW, Ou Ki, Ren Pa and Mou Gou, and generals that lead by example of strength like Duke Hyou and Mou Bu tap into that power when they galvanize their troops.
Then screenshot you posted does not align with anything Ou Ki or Mou Gou had to say about weight. Or Shin, for that matter. Ou Ki's definition aligns with what I'm saying, and Duke Hyou and Ri Boku's words on Hou Ken's folly cement that.
Those incapable or unwilling to carry on the feelings of others possess little or no weight. Hou Ken had no weight for precisely that reason. Kan Mei, a man who cared only for his own strength, does not strike me as someone willing to make room for the feelings of friends and allies, never mind foes, rivals and adversaries.
The Chu strategist was proven wrong about the source of a general's true strength. He had an incomplete picture based on his proximity to Kan Mei, the Giant of Chu who achieved all he achieved by individual strength and self belief alone. The strategist did not understand or even know about the concept of weight. Mou Bu showed him.
This is a lazy straw man or an indictment on your reading comprehension. I've addressed some of it already with regards to victories and defeats.
Clearly I was alluding to a clash of ideals - i.e. different views of what the true strength of a general is - and the victor was Mou Bu, the one who found strength in thinking of others, and thereby possessed a weight his opponent, Kan Mei, was unlikely capable of producing due to his selfish, self-absorbed mentality.
Ou Ki spoke in the context of what made him a Great Generals of the Heavens to a bewildered Hou Ken, who was neither a true general, nor truly strong.
Weight is not a concept tied to military service or martial ability. Sei, who in his capacity as king can pull of feats comparable to a Great General, cares a great deal about people and possesses weight. Similarly, Yo Tan Wa is king first, and the source of her tremendous weight are her feelings for her people. As Shin would likely tell it, even someone with such enormous cynicism towards people like Kan Pi Shi likely possessed some weight because, in his own way, his "fire" burned so brightly because he was constantly thinking of others.
We saw it multiple times from Ou Ki, finding the strength to both match and overwhelm Hou Ken, in spite of his inferior martial ability and strength.
We've seen it multiple times with Mou Bu when thinking of Mou Ten and Shou Hei Kun during his battles with Kan Mei and Man'U.
Kyou Kai demonstrated it when the strength of her weight allowed her to go deeper into her trance than even Yuu Ren was capable of, without losing herself.
Shin has never shown a clearer example of weight than when he slew Hou Ken at Shukai.
There are many clear examples of weight "kicking in" as it were. They don't always translate to victory. Go Kei, Rin Ko, Mou Gou, Duke Hyou, Kei Sha, Chou Ga Ryuu, Gyou'Un - there any many who tapped into the strength of their weight and still lost the fight.
This is less concrete, but I believe especially charismatic generals like Ri Boku, YTW, Ou Ki, Ren Pa and Mou Gou, and generals that lead by example of strength like Duke Hyou and Mou Bu tap into that power when they galvanize their troops.
Then screenshot you posted does not align with anything Ou Ki or Mou Gou had to say about weight. Or Shin, for that matter. Ou Ki's definition aligns with what I'm saying, and Duke Hyou and Ri Boku's words on Hou Ken's folly cement that.
Those incapable or unwilling to carry on the feelings of others possess little or no weight. Hou Ken had no weight for precisely that reason. Kan Mei, a man who cared only for his own strength, does not strike me as someone willing to make room for the feelings of friends and allies, never mind foes, rivals and adversaries.
The Chu strategist was proven wrong about the source of a general's true strength. He had an incomplete picture based on his proximity to Kan Mei, the Giant of Chu who achieved all he achieved by individual strength and self belief alone. The strategist did not understand or even know about the concept of weight. Mou Bu showed him.
This is a lazy straw man or an indictment on your reading comprehension. I've addressed some of it already with regards to victories and defeats.
Clearly I was alluding to a clash of ideals - i.e. different views of what the true strength of a general is - and the victor was Mou Bu, the one who found strength in thinking of others, and thereby possessed a weight his opponent, Kan Mei, was unlikely capable of producing due to his selfish, self-absorbed mentality.
Ou Ki spoke in the context of what made him a Great Generals of the Heavens to a bewildered Hou Ken, who was neither a true general, nor truly strong.
Weight is not a concept tied to military service or martial ability. Sei, who in his capacity as king can pull of feats comparable to a Great General, cares a great deal about people and possesses weight. Similarly, Yo Tan Wa is king first, and the source of her tremendous weight are her feelings for her people. As Shin would likely tell it, even someone with such enormous cynicism towards people like Kan Pi Shi likely possessed some weight because, in his own way, his "fire" burned so brightly because he was constantly thinking of others.
Last edited:
And yet according to Riboku he can't win a direct clash against Renpa, nobody can.
Riboku is more than just a military commander on the battlefield. He is like SHK but active on the battlefield.
For devising grand strategies for the entire state but also leading an army on the field, he's the best ever if you combine that but I think certain Top Tier generals like Ousen, Hakuki, Ouki, Renpa can beat him imo.
Watch out for Kou EN. Hara will completely destroy the power scaling with him.
Riboku is more than just a military commander on the battlefield. He is like SHK but active on the battlefield.
For devising grand strategies for the entire state but also leading an army on the field, he's the best ever if you combine that but I think certain Top Tier generals like Ousen, Hakuki, Ouki, Renpa can beat him imo.
Watch out for Kou EN. Hara will completely destroy the power scaling with him.
I think he’ll be more of a balanced commander than Renpa and Riboku. And especially if you look at his historical feats, him being a more balanced commander is very likely. I might do a thread on Kou En’s historical feats because he has one victory in particular that is just insane.
In terms of grand strategy, Riboku > Kou En > Renpa
In terms of plains warfare, Renpa > Kou En > Riboku
We already know Renpa > Kou En in open warfare as Riboku said, and we can pretty much reasonably infer that Riboku is the best grand strategist of all time with only Ousen or maybe Shouheikun rivaling him for that title. So I think Kou En is probably more balanced than both.
In terms of grand strategy, Riboku > Kou En > Renpa
In terms of plains warfare, Renpa > Kou En > Riboku
We already know Renpa > Kou En in open warfare as Riboku said, and we can pretty much reasonably infer that Riboku is the best grand strategist of all time with only Ousen or maybe Shouheikun rivaling him for that title. So I think Kou En is probably more balanced than both.
That statement is about Riboku judging the whole pack. By the "whole pack" I mean: you've got Renpa, one of the strongest commanders ever, and his combination of the four Heavenly Kings, each one a monster on his own right (Genpo and Kyouen are especially absurd), experienced veterans of warfare with profound sinergy with their lord.
Yeah, with that, I can see Riboku thinking that it would be unfeasable to best Renpa (in head on clash) when having an even amount of soldiers lol.
Yeah, with that, I can see Riboku thinking that it would be unfeasable to best Renpa (in head on clash) when having an even amount of soldiers lol.
Last edited:
RBK was just being humble.
Gyoun who has more ties to Renpa than Riboku due to Rinshoujo's relation with Renpa still said that Riboku is the strongest of the 3GH in all of history
Likewise Ouki considers Riboku to be the strongest he's ever faced.
As for Kou En he's weaker than Renpa and viewed as a lesser threat than RBK by Renpa/Ou Ken/Ei Sei
I think Chu wont have any general on RBK's level. Rather they will have 6+ generals on 3GH/6GG level whereas Zhao only has RBK and Shibashou
Gyoun who has more ties to Renpa than Riboku due to Rinshoujo's relation with Renpa still said that Riboku is the strongest of the 3GH in all of history
Likewise Ouki considers Riboku to be the strongest he's ever faced.
As for Kou En he's weaker than Renpa and viewed as a lesser threat than RBK by Renpa/Ou Ken/Ei Sei
I think Chu wont have any general on RBK's level. Rather they will have 6+ generals on 3GH/6GG level whereas Zhao only has RBK and Shibashou
Which doesn’t mean that Riboku would beat Renpa on the plains lol
There’s a reason Riboku had to pull as much trickery as he did against Ouki, because if he would have simply rolled up with an army to face Ouki, he would have lost. This is why he had to bait Ouki with Houken, and wait until Qin had sent its main army into Wei with Mougou, and wait until Ouki was cornered, and conceal his existence from Qin.
Because if he would’ve just rolled up with an army to face Ouki, Ouki would have beaten him.
It’s the same with Renpa. Riboku is the strongest in history not because he can beat everyone in an army vs army clash, but because Riboku uses grand strategy and information manipulation to earn wins outside of just facing an army head on.
Head on Renpa would roll Riboku like a joint and smoke him. And I love Riboku, he is a top 3 Kingdom character for me and I don’t care much about Renpa but that’s just the fact of the matter. Riboku really isn’t all that when it comes to a straightforward battle and we’ve seen this time and time again. It is probably his weakest aspect as a general.
As an overall commander, Riboku > Renpa yes. On the plains, Renpa destroys Riboku.
And yes @God Buggy is correct that Renpa’s 4 Heavenly Kings are included in what makes Renpa so busted. Best combination of subordinate generals we’ve ever seen in Kingdom no question.
There’s a reason Riboku had to pull as much trickery as he did against Ouki, because if he would have simply rolled up with an army to face Ouki, he would have lost. This is why he had to bait Ouki with Houken, and wait until Qin had sent its main army into Wei with Mougou, and wait until Ouki was cornered, and conceal his existence from Qin.
Because if he would’ve just rolled up with an army to face Ouki, Ouki would have beaten him.
It’s the same with Renpa. Riboku is the strongest in history not because he can beat everyone in an army vs army clash, but because Riboku uses grand strategy and information manipulation to earn wins outside of just facing an army head on.
Head on Renpa would roll Riboku like a joint and smoke him. And I love Riboku, he is a top 3 Kingdom character for me and I don’t care much about Renpa but that’s just the fact of the matter. Riboku really isn’t all that when it comes to a straightforward battle and we’ve seen this time and time again. It is probably his weakest aspect as a general.
As an overall commander, Riboku > Renpa yes. On the plains, Renpa destroys Riboku.
And yes @God Buggy is correct that Renpa’s 4 Heavenly Kings are included in what makes Renpa so busted. Best combination of subordinate generals we’ve ever seen in Kingdom no question.
My final post on Renpa, in a thread that absolutely wasn't about Renpa lol.
The problem with facing Renpa and the Heavenly Kings in a head on clash and outright besting him, with an even amount of soldiers, is that fundamentally they've got every base covered.
- Renpa is a genius of warfare who also can also fight with insticts, a great morale booster and a great fighter on top of that.
- Genpou is a military mind so strong that he could have literally served as the Head of Zhao's military.
- Kyouen is so fucking strong that he consistenly clashed with likes of 6GG Kyou (where both had huge losses), fought Hakuki as well, feasibly the strongest member of the old Qin Six.
- Kaishibou possess destructive power comparable to Renpa's.
- Rinko was literally able to threaten Ouki's tactics and even land a blow on the bloke. Very lethal tactic, very powerful elite soldiers.
@Extravlad In a battle Riboku can certainly outplay Renpa and I join you in saying that Riboku has always been that guy no matter the context. This isn't about the individual. The problem is that this combination that Renpa leads is so fucking strong that even doing that doesn't guarantee the victory. Overall, Renpa has a number of ways to do damage the opponent, to put him at risk, to force him back.
If you look at the Renpa army there's a problem, then another problem, then still another problem.
And yup, another problem from someone else might open up if you try to tackle the first problem.
The problem with facing Renpa and the Heavenly Kings in a head on clash and outright besting him, with an even amount of soldiers, is that fundamentally they've got every base covered.
- Renpa is a genius of warfare who also can also fight with insticts, a great morale booster and a great fighter on top of that.
- Genpou is a military mind so strong that he could have literally served as the Head of Zhao's military.
- Kyouen is so fucking strong that he consistenly clashed with likes of 6GG Kyou (where both had huge losses), fought Hakuki as well, feasibly the strongest member of the old Qin Six.
- Kaishibou possess destructive power comparable to Renpa's.
- Rinko was literally able to threaten Ouki's tactics and even land a blow on the bloke. Very lethal tactic, very powerful elite soldiers.
@Extravlad In a battle Riboku can certainly outplay Renpa and I join you in saying that Riboku has always been that guy no matter the context. This isn't about the individual. The problem is that this combination that Renpa leads is so fucking strong that even doing that doesn't guarantee the victory. Overall, Renpa has a number of ways to do damage the opponent, to put him at risk, to force him back.
If you look at the Renpa army there's a problem, then another problem, then still another problem.
And yup, another problem from someone else might open up if you try to tackle the first problem.
Last edited: