Speculations ZKK is back!

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ruffyxz

ruffyxz

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#1
#1
Hi my ZKK enthusiastic friends.
Today I wanna inform you about a new possibility for ZKK which I read today on Twitter.

Read this Thread on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1530634557522944011

The whole Theory is based on Oda’s Title for 1042 and that “Winners” don’t need epithet’s (it’s the offical viz translation).
In the latest chapter Luffy’s victory is announced as “Straw Hat Luffy” so this means Kaido will come back 😎


https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1530814360867807233

can someone make this an emote? 😂
 
Charlotte Horchata

Charlotte Horchata

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#7
#7
Not this shit again.

Illiterates who not only ignore that "epithet" has many meanings in English, but also won't take the trouble to check if the word that was translated in both cases into "epithet" is actually the same in Japanese (spoiler: it isn't).

I will just repost my statements on this topic:

Charlotte Horchata said:
I don't think it's meant to be understood in such literal way; here lies a translation issue because the Japanese term "makurakotoba" is quite idiosyncratic, but one of the best explanations I've come across defines it as "filler" words in the sense that they don't modify the meaning of the term they accompany but stress and embelish it; this is indeed translated as "epithet" in many languages, but we shouldn't understand it in the sense of "Kaido, the King of the Beasts" but more like "white snow". This type of epithet with an emphatic function (we know that snow is white, but stressing it adds rhetorical weight) is called epithetum constans.

When Luffy addresses that samurai are strong Kaido confronts him as if "strong samurai" was equivalent to "white snow", and that's exactly why he states that winners don't need makurakotoba: because if you demonstrate you're strong you don't need to support it with an epithetum constans since it's already obvious from your victory; hence why Kaido wonders whether samurai aren't really strong but pretend to be it by building this facade, like grey snow pretending to be white by presenting itself with such epithet.

So I'm afraid you and everybody who is understanding "epithet" as "King of the beasts", "Straw hat", "Surgeon of death"... aren't really getting what a makurakotoba is, in my opinion. Of course I could be wrong since it isn't an easy topic.
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Charlotte Horchata said:
You guys are mixing different things by no checking the Japanese and studying their words.

Descriptive bynames like Straw Hat, Surgeon of Death or King of the Beasts are tsusho (通称) but Kaidou was talking about a rhetoric figure called makurakotoba (枕詞). Only because both can be translated as "epithet" doesn't mean they are the same; heck, even in English "epithet" has tons of different meanings.

When Oda says that the victor needs no epithets he doesn't mean that addressing Kid as "Captain" and Law as "Surgeon of death" delegitimizes their win, but that if samurai were as strong as they are claimed to be they would demonstrate it by their actions instead of their reputation.
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TLDR: a makurakotoba (what Kaidou said victors didn't need) isn't the same as a tsusho (what bynames like "Straw Hat" are), but since people are ignorant as hell they won't even know that "epithet" means many meanings in English, and since on top of their illiteracy they are also bare minimum-thinkers they won't even check if in Japanese the words are the same at all; which they aren't.
 
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Hamlette

Hamlette

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#8
#8
Kaido stated that he wanted to create a world where ones value was dependent on ones accomplishments in battle. The word "Epithet" can mean different things, you could even replace it with "description" or "title"; a strong individual doesn't need any of these things because they prove their worth in battle, whether you call yourself a samurai or a knight, all these titles are empty without the accolades to back them up. Luffy, Kidd and Law have already proven themselves through winning against the Yonko; what does the epithet "straw hat" have to do with strength?, Kaido is referring to a title based around ones self proclaimed/perceived strength or worth. Like the title "Marine", just because you describe yourself as a "Marine" doesn't mean anything without the accomplishments to place any value in that term, but if you DO have said accomplishments then there is no need to describe yourself with such titles because you've proven your worth through action.
 
ruffyxz

ruffyxz

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#9
#9
Charlotte Horchata said:
Not this shit again.

Illiterates who not only ignore that "epithet" has many meanings in English, but also won't take the trouble to check if the word that was translated in both cases into "epithet" is actually the same in Japanese (spoiler: it isn't).

I will just repost my statements on this topic:





TLDR: a makurakotoba (what Kaidou said victors didn't need) isn't the same as a tsusho (what bynames like "Straw Hat" are), but since people are ignorant as hell they won't even know that "epithet" means many meanings in English, and since on top of their illiteracy they are also bare minimum-thinkers they won't even check if in Japanese the words are the same at all; which they aren't.
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damn… you did your home work I guess.
Thank you for this explanation.
Post automatically merged:

Hamlette said:
Kaido stated that he wanted to create a world where ones value was dependent on ones accomplishments in battle. The word "Epithet" can mean different things, you could even replace it with "description" or "title"; a strong individual doesn't need any of these things because they prove their worth in battle, whether you call yourself a samurai or a knight, all these titles are empty without the accolades to back them up. Luffy, Kidd and Law have already proven themselves through winning against the Yonko; what does the epithet "straw hat" have to do with strength?, Kaido is referring to a title based around ones self proclaimed/perceived strength or worth. Like the title "Marine", just because you describe yourself as a "Marine" doesn't mean anything without the accomplishments to place any value in that term, but if you DO have said accomplishments then there is no need to describe yourself with such titles because you've proven your worth through action.
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Yes this makes sense and is similar to Charlotte Horchata‘s statements.
 
BleakAsh

BleakAsh

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#11
#11
someone tell him that thats a misinterpretation of the word used in a specific context in the chapter itself

Epithet doesn't only mean title.. it also means characteristics also means quality

The title means that Victors don't need epithets like "strong" etc... their names itself entail that quality.
 
ruffyxz

ruffyxz

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#12
#12
BleakAsh said:
someone tell him that thats a misinterpretation of the word used in a specific context in the chapter itself

Epithet doesn't only mean title.. it also means characteristics also means quality

The title means that visitors don't need epithets like "strong" etc... their names itself entail that quality.
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Two guys already mentioned this, calm down boy.
 
Charlotte Horchata

Charlotte Horchata

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#16
#16
ruffyxz said:
damn… you did your home work I guess.
Thank you for this explanation.
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Not trying to sound mean here, but back then it took me five minutes to trace both words in Japanese and I'm not even fluent at it. I've come across this theory many times last weeks and it's always, always the same: bare minimum-thinkers who won't have the intellectual insight of even questioning what words were used in the original text to check if the very foundation of their hypothesis makes sense (that epithets like "Straw Hat Luffy" and epithets like "strong samurai" are the same); they will just follow blindly what English said even though it's just one translation among many others as official as it, ergo a secondary source, and on top of that they won't even think about the detail that "epithet" doesn't mean just one thing.

It's exhausting because it makes you realize that, if these people won't even make the effort to critically evaluate such an easily falsifiable idea, then how biased will they be with more important and complex issues that affect us all?
 
Hamlette

Hamlette

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#17
#17
Charlotte Horchata said:
Not trying to sound mean here, but back then it took me five minutes to trace both words in Japanese and I'm not even fluent at it. I've come across this theory many times last weeks and it's always, always the same: bare minimum-thinkers who won't have the intellectual insight of even questioning what words were used in the original text to check if the very foundation of their hypothesis (that epithets like "Straw Hat Luffy" and epithets like "strong samurai" are the same); they will just follow blindly what English said even though it's just one translation among many others as official as it, ergo a secondary source, and on top of that they won't even think about the detail that "epithet" doesn't mean just one thing.

It's exhausting because it makes you realize that, if these people won't even make the effort to critically evaluate such an easily falsifiable idea, then how biased will they be with more important and complex issues that affect us all?
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I didn't even know how serious people were about this until recently. To think that in some peoples minds, a byname referring to an article of clothing falls under what Kaidos referring to.....is.....interesting.
 
ruffyxz

ruffyxz

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#19
#19
Charlotte Horchata said:
Not trying to sound mean here, but back then it took me five minutes to trace both words in Japanese and I'm not even fluent at it. I've come across this theory many times last weeks and it's always, always the same: bare minimum-thinkers who won't have the intellectual insight of even questioning what words were used in the original text to check if the very foundation of their hypothesis makes sense (that epithets like "Straw Hat Luffy" and epithets like "strong samurai" are the same); they will just follow blindly what English said even though it's just one translation among many others as official as it, ergo a secondary source, and on top of that they won't even think about the detail that "epithet" doesn't mean just one thing.

It's exhausting because it makes you realize that, if these people won't even make the effort to critically evaluate such an easily falsifiable idea, then how biased will they be with more important and complex issues that affect us all?
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I didn‘t take it personally but the reason why I didn‘t research in this topic is that I don‘t care tbh.
This Thread was just for fun. I‘m fine with the results as now but I also welcome a possibility for ZKK.

therefore you can‘t generalize someone’s intelligence just because he didn‘t research in such topics like this.

It‘s not my work or something like that.
 
Jonny Will

Jonny Will

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#20
#20
ruffyxz said:
Hi my ZKK enthusiastic friends.
Today I wanna inform you about a new possibility for ZKK which I read today on Twitter.

Read this Thread on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1530634557522944011

The whole Theory is based on Oda’s Title for 1042 and that “Winners” don’t need epithet’s (it’s the offical viz translation).
In the latest chapter Luffy’s victory is announced as “Straw Hat Luffy” so this means Kaido will come back 😎


https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1530814360867807233

can someone make this an emote? 😂
Click to expand...
I am not one of the ZKK brigade, but I definitely want Kaido to get back up and use Awakening. This is actually a pretty solid theory lol.
 
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