Future Events Zoro and Roger? The true nature of Zoro's dream

Where will Zoro demonstrate the pinnacle of his strength?

  • Against Mihawk

  • In the Final War

  • Against Shiryu

  • Against the Gorosei

  • A rematch with Ryuma

  • None of the above


Results are only viewable after voting.
#1
Chapter 966 raised a lot of questions with the apparent portrayal of Roger as a swordsman. What does this mean for Zoro's endgame? Will Zoro surpass Roger? If he fails to do so, would that equal a failure to fulfil his dream? I'd like to argue that these debates are ill-informed and based on a misunderstanding of the characters. Zoro's dream has never been Roger, nor has it ever been to be the best swordsman of all time. To shed some light on the situation, we need to revisit his promise to Kuina:
Neither Kuina nor Zoro expressed any desire to be the 'strongest of all time'. They merely wanted to be acknowledged as the WSS. Putting that aside, comparing oneself to dead people is a futile endeavour. Roger died before Zoro was born, and no one alive remembers exactly how strong individuals such as Ryuma were. Maybe there was even an Ancient Kingdom swordsman stronger than Ryuma and Roger? We'll never know.

As an adult, Zoro once again reiterates that his goal is to be so famous that his name will be known worldwide. To that end, he initially cast away his morals and threatened anyone who interfered with his goal. Through his encounters with Luffy and Mihawk, Zoro realised the error of his ways and came to place Luffy's ambition and goals before his own. This is not to say that Zoro no longer cares about being a famous master swordsman, rather that his path to becoming one will look very different from Mihawk's.


Very early in the series, Mihawk emphasised the idea of gaining worldly experience in order to grow strong. This has recently returned to the spotlight through Oden's adventure, with Oda constantly emphasising how much Oden was changed by his travels outside Wano.



Even in a chapter about Roger, Oden continues to focus on the marvels of the OP world. Although he considered WB a great man, Roger's lust for adventure was far more admirable to Oden, who constantly chafed at the restrictive society of Wano. Yet for all his adventures and experience, Oden did not manage to open the borders and expose Wano natives to everything the world had to offer. In this arc, Zoro has developed his relationships with Momo and Hiyori, with himself and Momo inheriting Oden's twin blades. Kawamatsu's backstory reveals that in Wano culture, swords represent inherited will; in other words Zoro and Momo will be the ones to bring Oden's will to fruition. This would go a long way to etching Zoro's name in history as the swordsman who helped open Wano's borders.

We also know that Luffy will succeed where Roger failed; he will bring down the corrupt Celestial Dragons and reveal the true history to the world. Luffy established very early on that the Pirate King needs the WSS by his side. Oda even titled a chapter 'Pirate King and Master Swordsman'. Chapter 966 re-established that the central theme of One Piece is not strength, but freedom and a love for adventure. While Mihawk is a strong individual in his own right, he broke off his bond with Shanks, and neither men surpassed the achievements of previous generations. Mihawk represents the pinnacle of an individual swordsman's strength; Zoro will surpass him many times over in fame as a member of the Pirate King's crew, a man who helped bring freedom to the world. Zoro will become the WSS by proving Mihawk's philosophy wrong, demonstrating that individual strength is not the only thing that matters as a swordsman - the strongest swordsman uses his strength to protect what he needs to.

Let me know your thoughts in the comments below. For a more concrete theory about what Zoro's dream truly entails, check out my other thread: https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/for...will-why-there-are-no-perfect-parallels.1719/

Edit: Just as a clarification, I recognise that Oda has made strong comparisons between Zoro and Ryuma as a historically significant swordsman. However, this only strengthens the argument that he lacks a connection to Roger. Oda has established clear milestones for Zoro to surpass Oden and Ryuma, and has even had Zoro clash with a weaker version of Ryuma and inherit his will. Given that Oda is extremely blatant with parallels, Zoro and Roger's connection remains almost entirely a fanmade connection.

 
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Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#2
Zoro never expressed a desire to be the strongest Swordsman of all time, but I don’t think Oda will care about that. I don’t think he’ll end this manga with it being up in the air who the strongest Swordsman ever is.

For this reason, Oda will make Zoro the strongest Swordsman ever, stronger than Roger.

Based on 966, Mihawk already looks > Roger anyway lol.
 
#3
Chapter 966 raised a lot of questions with the apparent portrayal of Roger as a swordsman. What does this mean for Zoro's endgame? Will Zoro surpass Roger? If he fails to do so, would that equal a failure to fulfil his dream? I'd like to argue that these debates are ill-informed and based on a misunderstanding of the characters. Zoro's dream has never been Roger, nor has it ever been to be the best swordsman of all time. To shed some light on the situation, we need to revisit his promise to Kuina:
Neither Kuina nor Zoro expressed any desire to be the 'strongest of all time'. They merely wanted to be acknowledged as the WSS. Putting that aside, comparing oneself to dead people is a futile endeavour. Roger died before Zoro was born, and no one alive remembers exactly how strong individuals such as Ryuma were. Maybe there was even an Ancient Kingdom swordsman stronger than Ryuma and Roger? We'll never know.

As an adult, Zoro once again reiterates that his goal is to be so famous that his name will be known worldwide. To that end, he initially cast away his morals and threatened anyone who interfered with his goal. Through his encounters with Luffy and Mihawk, Zoro realised the error of his ways and came to place Luffy's ambition and goals before his own. This is not to say that Zoro no longer cares about being a famous master swordsman, rather that his path to becoming one will look very different from Mihawk's.


Very early in the series, Mihawk emphasised the idea of gaining worldly experience in order to grow strong. This has recently returned to the spotlight through Oden's adventure, with Oda constantly emphasising how much Oden was changed by his travels outside Wano.



Even in a chapter about Roger, Oden continues to focus on the marvels of the OP world. Although he considered WB a great man, Roger's lust for adventure was far more admirable to Oden, who constantly chafed at the restrictive society of Wano. Yet for all his adventures and experience, Oden did not manage to open the borders and expose Wano natives to everything the world had to offer. In this arc, Zoro has developed his relationships with Momo and Hiyori, with himself and Momo inheriting Oden's twin blades. Kawamatsu's backstory reveals that in Wano culture, swords represent inherited will; in other words Zoro and Momo will be the ones to bring Oden's will to fruition. This would go a long way to etching Zoro's name in history as the swordsman who helped open Wano's borders.

We also know that Luffy will succeed where Roger failed; he will bring down the corrupt Celestial Dragons and reveal the true history to the world. Luffy established very early on that the Pirate King needs the WSS by his side. Oda even titled a chapter 'Pirate King and Master Swordsman'. Chapter 966 re-established that the central theme of One Piece is not strength, but freedom and a love for adventure. While Mihawk is a strong individual in his own right, he broke off his bond with Shanks, and neither men surpassed the achievements of previous generations. Mihawk represents the pinnacle of an individual swordsman's strength; Zoro will surpass him many times over in fame as a member of the Pirate King's crew, a man who helped bring freedom to the world. Zoro will become the WSS by proving Mihawk's philosophy wrong, demonstrating that individual strength is not the only thing that matters as a swordsman - the strongest swordsman uses his strength to protect what he needs to.

Let me know your thoughts in the comments below. For a more concrete theory about what Zoro's dream truly entails, check out my other thread: https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/for...will-why-there-are-no-perfect-parallels.1719/

all come from shounen logic. Same for luffy . even without his desires ,ambitions and without his words - Many fans think " if i followed a mc more than 20 years , he has to be the strongest of all time. its a shounen after all "
it doesnt matter what zoro said for what and for who he aimed . in deep down people know whats gonna happen and refuses Roger as swordmen and shit on mihawk etc etc.
 
#4
Nice post, but disagreed on multiple things.


Zoro: "Let's make a promise we will become the greatest swordsmen ever."
Zoro: "Great Master Swordsman.... through the heavens"

1st: He wants to be the best ever to weild the sword. This is a basic concept, that anybody who has done any sort of competition in a field (athehletics/martial arts/business/etc) should be able to understand, highly ambitious people who train/work day and night at their craft don't want to simply surpass somebody who's recognized the best right now.. they want to be the greatest ever to do it. Which is why Zoro & Kuina made that promise, as they're highly ambitious swordsman. Zoro's ambition being on par with Luffy's.

2nd: Has Mihawk ever been stated to have his name known even in the heavens? I don't recall a single time such a thing was mentioned.

Mihawk was added as a benchmark to his dream that parallels Shanks for Luffy. While both of their dreams lay past their benchmarks. Mihawk himself has never once been Zoro's endgoal. And props to @CelestialD.Dragon from OJ for opening my eyes to this after our stubborn debate.

------------
Moving on to my dude Dracule himself. You're mischaracterizing him imo by saying he has some sort of a different outlook when it comes to crewmates and growing in strength, that is not the case whatsoever with his character. He perfectly knows very well the power of somebody who grows in swordsmanship with a crew and putting his life on the line to protect others through Shanks. Which is why he was impressed that Zoro was able to put aside his pride to become strong for the sake of others, probably reminded him of Shanks if anything.

Mihawk never broke off his bond with Shanks, the guy stopped dueling him because one of them is crippled, hence Mihawk waiting on somebody stronger than Shanks. When a guy can casually walk into an island and party with a man, you can't exactly say he broke their bond. Their bond simply transitioned from hardcore rivals to individuals who have immense respect for others , a friendship of a certain type.

So the philosophy that you believe Zoro will be using to prove Mihawk's wrong.. is a philosophy that Mihawk respects and acknowledges very much so.
 
#5
"Let's make a promise we will become the greatest swordsmen ever."
That's not what the raw text says. Zoro will be the strongest swordsman of his era, just as Mihawk is the best of the Great Era of Piracy. There is no comparison made between Zoro and historical swordsmen, nor does there need to be.

Moving on to my dude Dracule himself. You're mischaracterizing him imo by saying he has some sort of a different outlook when it comes to crewmates and growing in strength, that is not the case whatsoever with his character.
Mihawk considers what Zoro did, aka begging to be trained by his enemy, to be a loss of pride regardless. Mihawk admires Zoro's ability to do so, but this is not something Mihawk would personally do.

Mihawk never broke off his bond with Shanks, the guy stopped dueling him because one of them is crippled, hence Mihawk waiting on somebody stronger than Shanks.
The point I'm making is that both Mihawk and Shanks never fulfilled their potential. Luffy and Zoro have a symbiotic relationship; Zoro promised to get stronger for Luffy and Luffy's quest to become Pirate King pits Zoro against stronger and stronger opponents. Mihawk and Shanks' duels provided an incentive for both parties to become stronger, the VC even uses the phrase 'sharpening swords' to represent their rivalry. Shanks is now a yonko, unable to progress without the road poneglyphs, and Mihawk lacks purpose and direction in life.

all come from shounen logic. Same for luffy . even without his desires ,ambitions and without his words - Many fans think " if i followed a mc more than 20 years , he has to be the strongest of all time. its a shounen after all "
it doesnt matter what zoro said for what and for who he aimed . in deep down people know whats gonna happen and refuses Roger as swordmen and shit on mihawk etc etc.
I don't understand the whole Roger/Mihawk argument. Mihawk is great in his own right, no need to compare him to others. It's like saying Banksy is only a great artist because Van Gogh is dead.
 
#6
I don't understand the whole Roger/Mihawk argument. Mihawk is great in his own right, no need to compare him to others. It's like saying Banksy is only a great artist because Van Gogh is dead
if there wasnt a reason , be sure people would not be that much obsessed with Roger's fighting style and shit on Mihawk. Mihawk is great and latest chapter opened gates of opportunity for Mihawk to end up stronger than Roger imo. in the end mihawk still breathes unlike other one. its all up to Oda. Firstly lets see how he will play his cards before getting upset bec of what fans think
 

Gol D. Roger

ȶɦɛ քɨʀǟȶɛ ӄɨռɢ
#7
Zoro will become the WSS by proving Mihawk's philosophy wrong
Mihawk never striked me like someone who believes power is everything. And Zoro did say he wanted to become the greatest ever(Unless it's a translation error) here...
though I don't think this needs to be taken for granted.
 
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#8
Mihawk never striked me like someone who believes power is everything. And Zoro did say he wanted to become the greatest ever(Unless it's a translation error) here...
though I don't think this needs to be taken for granted.
He doesn't. Where Mihawk and Zoro primarily differ is that Mihawk believes defeat is the end of everything, while Luffy and Shanks see it as an opportunity for growth. Zoro places Luffy's dreams and wellbeing before his ambition while Mihawk, although he finds the sentiment admirable, has no one that he currently values more than himself.

I've seen the raws and it does not say 'greatest ever', I believe @Bogard has pointed out that pre-Stephen Paul Viz translations are not as reliable, they said 'duel' rather than 'duels' to describe Mihawk and Shanks' relationship.
 
#9
That's not what the raw text says. Zoro will be the strongest swordsman of his era, just as Mihawk is the best of the Great Era of Piracy. There is no comparison made between Zoro and historical swordsmen, nor does there need to be.


Mihawk considers what Zoro did, aka begging to be trained by his enemy, to be a loss of pride regardless. Mihawk admires Zoro's ability to do so, but this is not something Mihawk would personally do.
Do you have the raw text on you or the japanese wording used for that statement?
There's been multiple comparisons between Zoro & Ryuuma, Zoro & Rayleigh (though not exactly for the swordsmanship), And now Roger who has attacks based on diety/god based attack (I don't know of any other swordsman other than Zoro & his Asura like that, but I could be wrong, feel free to correct), so there's def. comparisons between him & swordsmen of the past. Now they've never been brought up for his dream or surpassing them, as he's not all that informed. I mean heck the guy wasn't even all that informed about Dracule either.

Yup because it was a loss of pride. Begging your enemy to train you is only possible if you can kill your pride, which is what impressed Mihawk. But it's not anything he hasn't seen before hence his statement, "clumsy fool, when a man of your caliber abandons his pride it's always for the sake of another". There's somebody else who's willing to abandon his pride for the sake of another, some dude with red-hair that used to clash with Mihawk, who Mihawk respects to a great extent. Whether Mihawk would do it himself or not, who knows. I would assume he will given that he's a man of Zoro's caliber.

For them not reaching the full potential, for me they've reached their peak and wont grow from where they are right now when it comes to fighting. But that's a different discussion tho.
 
#10
There's been multiple comparisons between Zoro & Ryuuma, Zoro & Rayleigh (though not exactly for the swordsmanship), And now Roger who has attacks based on diety/god based attack (I don't know of any other swordsman other than Zoro & his Asura like that, but I could be wrong, feel free to correct), so there's def. comparisons between him & swordsmen of the past. Now they've never been brought up for his dream or surpassing them, as he's not all that informed. I mean heck the guy wasn't even all that informed about Dracule either.
The only historical comparisons Zoro has for swordsmanship are Oden and Ryuma. Ryuma being a special case given that he's a shoutout to Oda's previous oneshot and his work on Rurouni Kenshin. Oda tends to make historical comparisons and parallels extremely cut and dry. If he wanted to link Zoro and Roger, he would do so in a more concrete way, not simply 'they both use swords'. It's like linking Sanji and Katakuri solely on the basis that both specialise in COO.

Zoro was fairly informed about Mihawk (as much as an East Blue native who knew nothing about Devil Fruits can). He mentioned he'd set sail specifically in search of Mihawk, he had Johnny and Yosaku looking out for signs of him and his fight against Hachi stated that not even the god of death could prevent him meeting Mihawk again. Oda is not at all subtle in his portrayal of Zoro's end goals. We haven't seen that with Roger.
 
#11
@Den_Den_Mushi don't forget about Ryuma. It is being hinted that Zoro will be the second Ryuma. If Zoro is only limited to surpassing the current world strongest swordsmen then the second Ryuma theme doesn't make any sense. It does if Oda Zoro to surpass all swordsman.

The only new information learned from the latest chapter is we now know that being pirate king doesn't automatically mean you will be the world's strongest swordsmen or the world strongest man.
 
#12
let me start like this.
I do not care who is stronger.

where does it say that Roger was WSS? Roger may aswell have been weaker than his eras WSS :believe:

how old is Mihawk?
who could say if Mihawk already was WSS 22y ago/before Roger died? :believe::believe:

I do not think there is a difference in strength between the previous WSS (even if Roger was one of them) and the current! :believe::believe::believe:


let there be salt and bitterness :kappa:
 
#13
I don’t think he’ll end this manga with it being up in the air who the strongest Swordsman ever is.
Problem is we know for a fact that the ony way for a swordan to be proven to be definitely batter than another swordsman is to beat them in a direct fight.

There are SO MANY types of swordsmanship in the world that there is literally no single feat that can prove one swordsman definitively over another unless they literally fight it out and see... Guys like Dorry and Brogy boast one of the stronger sword techniques in the world yet I could argue they lose to Tbone or Daz bones who definitely cannot match their DC and yet since they lost Dory and Brogy are NOT better swordsmen than Daz bones and Tbone

So my point is, HOW THE HELL WOULD ZORO PROVE HE WAS BETTER THAN ROGER?

Like if you are Oda, tell me how exactly you would prove that Zoro is the greatest swordsman who ever lived ever given the rules of the verse dictate that one swordsman is better than the other only when they beat the other? Remember not even Mihawk who is the current greatest swordsman has ever fought Roger so what is the scenario that proves your hypothesis?
 
#14
Yep Roger has no bearing on Zoro.
And Zoro is interested only in the title, meaning the current title holder, not a specific individual.
He is not after Mihawk, he is after the WSS who happens to be Mihawk.
I still doubt we will ever see a serious fight between mihawk and zoro.
And if we assume that the battle against the WG happens after BB crew fight, it might be someone from the WG, but currently it does not have any buildup.
 
#15
The notion of him never expressing desire to become the strongest of all times is irrelevant

How many characters turned stronger than they even imagined?

C'mon guys you can do better than this.
 

ZenZu

The only one who can beat me is me
#16
Problem is we know for a fact that the ony way for a swordan to be proven to be definitely batter than another swordsman is to beat them in a direct fight.

There are SO MANY types of swordsmanship in the world that there is literally no single feat that can prove one swordsman definitively over another unless they literally fight it out and see... Guys like Dorry and Brogy boast one of the stronger sword techniques in the world yet I could argue they lose to Tbone or Daz bones who definitely cannot match their DC and yet since they lost Dory and Brogy are NOT better swordsmen than Daz bones and Tbone

So my point is, HOW THE HELL WOULD ZORO PROVE HE WAS BETTER THAN ROGER?

Like if you are Oda, tell me how exactly you would prove that Zoro is the greatest swordsman who ever lived ever given the rules of the verse dictate that one swordsman is better than the other only when they beat the other? Remember not even Mihawk who is the current greatest swordsman has ever fought Roger so what is the scenario that proves your hypothesis?
Simple. If he cuts something that no man has been able to cut before. That wouldn't guarantee he would defeat Roger or Ryuma or whoever in a 1v1. But it would likely make him the greatest swordsman who ever lived. His name would go down in legends for achieving such a feat, as the sole person in history to do so with a blade.


@Thread
Yea, Roger never had, and likely never will have anything to do with Zoro. If you think otherwise, you've managed to get caught up in this shallow sword debate, time to stop counting swords in your sleep and wake up to see the bigger picture.

Even if you believe Zoro will surpass Roger, it's got nothing to do with Roger directly. Nothing in the latest chapters changed that.
 
#17
If he cuts something that no man has been able to cut before.
So you are saying Zoro doesn't have to fight Mihawk? He just to cut something very big? Or Dorry and Brogy are better swordsmen than T bone because they have higher DC yet T bone can beat them in an actual fight?

Are you saying Mihawk is WSS because he cut something no one else did?
 

Bogard

You can't win
#18
I've seen the raws and it does not say 'greatest ever', I believe @Bogard has pointed out that pre-Stephen Paul Viz translations are not as reliable, they said 'duel' rather than 'duels' to describe Mihawk and Shanks' relationship.
Yeah for earlier the translations, i personally recommend using Stephen's old script: https://web.archive.org/web/20090417170532/http://www.mangascreener.com/stephen/onepiece/

He used to translate chapters from the 1st to chapter 539

Viz wasn't accurate back in the day. There is a reason why they went on to switch their translator to him. His translations were recognized all over the web, hence why they decided to call him out and become their professional translator

He started being included in the viz translation by volume 64




And completely replaced the previous translator a volume later(65)



There is a reason for that. Because his translations were the best even better than the viz back in the day which was terrible until he became their professional translator

If everyone praises now how accurate the viz translation is now is because of him

And as for this topic yes, there was no 'ever' in Stephen's script.
<<Zoro: Boys this, girls that!! You better not use that as a cop-out when I beat you, someday!!!
It makes me look like an idiot for training my hardest everyday just to beat you!! So don't talk like that!!!
Let's make a promise!!!
Someday, either you or I will be the world's strongest swordsman!!
We'll race to see who can do it first!!!
 

ZenZu

The only one who can beat me is me
#19
So you are saying Zoro doesn't have to fight Mihawk? He just to cut something very big?
What reason does he have to avoid it? Roger and Ryuma are dead, there is no other option/source for comparison. In the case Mihawk ever dies before Zoro gets to him, same thing applies, better/greater feats can be performed regardless.

-For us as readers we can easily go through their feats to see who is superior without needing them to fight (I don't need to see Roger fighting Fujitora)
-For the lore, he could perform feats so great that they surpass what the world even knew Mihawk was capable of. Dubbing him greater.

Stop making it more complicated than it needs to be, it's just a title. There are no official rules to gaining one, this isn't a sport like boxing where there are 1v1 fights lined up for the judges on the side to score for a championship (title) belt.

Or Dorry and Brogy are better swordsmen than T bone because they have higher DC yet T bone can beat them in an actual fight?
Says who? A major false equivalence anyway, Zoro would be performing a feat that no one has ever been able to produce. A little different than Dorry and Brogy over here throwing out attacks anyone and their mothers can replicate.

A feat that no being before you had achieved. Yea not hard to see why one could go down as the greatest after accomplishing that.


Are you saying Mihawk is WSS because he cut something no one else did?
Who knows? Why are you implying you know exactly how he got the title?

You're acting like Kaidou went around facing different creatures to gain his title. Or defeated the previous strongest creature, whatever that means.
 
#20
You don't need to say Roger died before Zoro's promise or that Roger was never Zoro's goal. The point is ''swordsman'' , what's swordsman? The person who uses swordsmanship as a fighting style. Roger didn't even show a cutting technique, he could do the same with an iron bar. The guy sends a CoC + CoA Haki shocwave which didn't even cut Oden a little bit. Oden as a master swordsman surprised to see Roger's technique and he says ''what the hell was that'', this is not being surprise at the power of Roger's sword technique, this is not knowing what happened when Roger hits Oden. Because it wasn't a sword technique that Oden could understand as a swordsman. Plus, we've seen Roger is using a pistol as well against Shiki.

Yeah for earlier the translations, i personally recommend using Stephen's old script: https://web.archive.org/web/20090417170532/http://www.mangascreener.com/stephen/onepiece/

He used to translate chapters from the 1st to chapter 539

Viz wasn't accurate back in the day. There is a reason why they went on to switch their translator to him. His translations were recognized all over the web, hence why they decided to call him out and become their professional translator

He started being included in the viz translation by volume 64




And completely replaced the previous translator a volume later(65)



There is a reason for that. Because his translations were the best even better than the viz back in the day which was terrible until he became their professional translator

If everyone praises now how accurate the viz translation is now is because of him

And as for this topic yes, there was no 'ever' in Stephen's script.
VIZ didn't have a single translator before Stephen, you can see who makes the mistakes in the volume page who translated it, the early chapters have different translator then the others have different. As far as I see Stephen exaggerates too much sometimes, putting the ''legend'' word out of no where for mihawk when there is no mention of legend, it is a mistake. Plus Garp vs. Roger, the two translations (VIZ + digital color) says nothing about nearly killing each other, while Stephen also translate it as nearly killing each other which looks like a same type of mistake due to exaggerating.
 
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