Speculations Zoro's bizzare adventure part 2
- Thread starter ImmaIvanoM
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Maybe the first step to see this « organic growth » is to stop considering Zoro’s opponents as fodders because I’m fairly certain that Oda does not see Zoro’s opponents as fodders.
The second step is to consider that Zoro lost an eye during his training which means that he has his fair share of extrem fights against Mihawk.
The third step is too stop looking at the story from a feat perspective.
The second step is to consider that Zoro lost an eye during his training which means that he has his fair share of extrem fights against Mihawk.
The third step is too stop looking at the story from a feat perspective.
I’m sorry, the strongest guy zoro fought was fucking pica, any yc would destroy his ass.
What is it with people’s aversion to zoro actually working like everybody else to get to where he should be instead of magically being there? That’s boring imo
As a matter of fact what is it with people not wanting zoro to be the least bit indisposed to actually grow as a character?
I knew you were gonna use the eye thing, but come on. First we don’t know the context of that and second, you grow stronger in battle fighting enemies you can realistically beat and overcome them, that’s what gets you stronger, not getting your ass beat by a vastly superior enemy. This isn’t dbzs Zenkai boosts
And I’m sorry but a story has to respect it’s internal power structure or scaling to be compelling. Otherwise it’s just mayhem and nothing matters. Zoro has no business even coming near a yonko, he would get destroyed the same way luffy was if not worse. Let him beat a commander first.
What is it with people’s aversion to zoro actually working like everybody else to get to where he should be instead of magically being there? That’s boring imo
As a matter of fact what is it with people not wanting zoro to be the least bit indisposed to actually grow as a character?
I knew you were gonna use the eye thing, but come on. First we don’t know the context of that and second, you grow stronger in battle fighting enemies you can realistically beat and overcome them, that’s what gets you stronger, not getting your ass beat by a vastly superior enemy. This isn’t dbzs Zenkai boosts
And I’m sorry but a story has to respect it’s internal power structure or scaling to be compelling. Otherwise it’s just mayhem and nothing matters. Zoro has no business even coming near a yonko, he would get destroyed the same way luffy was if not worse. Let him beat a commander first.
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I respect your opinion but I think Rayleigh isn't equal to Roger
Though I would put it in a different point of view: Oden is the one that is overrated and he is no way as strong as Prime Rayleigh, which is although inferior to Roger
To me these two are wrong:
Roger = Rayleigh > Oden
Roger > Rayleigh = Oden
I believe in this powerscaling:
Roger > Ray > Oden
Though I would put it in a different point of view: Oden is the one that is overrated and he is no way as strong as Prime Rayleigh, which is although inferior to Roger
To me these two are wrong:
Roger = Rayleigh > Oden
Roger > Rayleigh = Oden
I believe in this powerscaling:
Roger > Ray > Oden
Oden fought against a weaker version of Kaido. "Build your strength as you can" said Oden to Kaido.
That's a way from Oda to show that Kaido had still some potential room to grow at that time.
Plus in Ace novel Kaido is said to be the of the same generation of Shanks, that means he wasn't at his prime 20 years ago and he reached it more or less at the same time as Shanks. It may be 10 or 12 years ago, 20 years is just too far to assume is Kaido's prime moment based on the information we have
While Old Ray went toe to toe with an admiral and admirals are ~Yonkou (he would have done only better if he was in his prime).
Prime Ray is full Yonkou/Admiral level, Oden isn't
Kaido ~ Prime Ray > Oden ~ 20 years ago Kaido >= Old Ray
That's a way from Oda to show that Kaido had still some potential room to grow at that time.
Plus in Ace novel Kaido is said to be the of the same generation of Shanks, that means he wasn't at his prime 20 years ago and he reached it more or less at the same time as Shanks. It may be 10 or 12 years ago, 20 years is just too far to assume is Kaido's prime moment based on the information we have
While Old Ray went toe to toe with an admiral and admirals are ~Yonkou (he would have done only better if he was in his prime).
Prime Ray is full Yonkou/Admiral level, Oden isn't
Kaido ~ Prime Ray > Oden ~ 20 years ago Kaido >= Old Ray
No the stronger one was Killer. But Pica was never introduced to be a fodder. Nor was Monet and neither Hyozou. Furthermore, what was highlighted in the Zoro vs Pica fight was not Zoro beating Pica but Zoro cutting down a mountain, thing that no Yonko commanders has been shown be doing by strength alone.
How do you know any Yonko Commabder would destroy his ass? Do you have any canon element that suggest that?
Losing an eye when he was training because of the difficulty of the training is not « working like everybody »? Training to fully mastered Enma is not « working like everybody »? Lifting weight every day is not « working like everybody »?
Wait...you arbitrarily decide that there is only one way to grow and you are surprised that people do not see thing like you? I mean there is absolutely nothing in the story that support that there only one way to grow stronger, in fact it was demonstrated the contrary.
You are basically closing doors and then be surprised that other people do not do so.
But the story actually respect his own internal logic, it is just that you refuse to acknowledge it because you decide that the only one way for you to accept Zoro’s growth is by him fighting « realistic opponent » he can beat.
Oda does not seems to see thing this way.
How do you know any Yonko Commabder would destroy his ass? Do you have any canon element that suggest that?
Losing an eye when he was training because of the difficulty of the training is not « working like everybody »? Training to fully mastered Enma is not « working like everybody »? Lifting weight every day is not « working like everybody »?
Wait...you arbitrarily decide that there is only one way to grow and you are surprised that people do not see thing like you? I mean there is absolutely nothing in the story that support that there only one way to grow stronger, in fact it was demonstrated the contrary.
You are basically closing doors and then be surprised that other people do not do so.
But the story actually respect his own internal logic, it is just that you refuse to acknowledge it because you decide that the only one way for you to accept Zoro’s growth is by him fighting « realistic opponent » he can beat.
Oda does not seems to see thing this way.
Let's see Zoro low diffed Killer at his full power or even got powered up because he got superior weapon from Wano and had Haki blooming in Kaido battle. Where as Zoro was massively nerfed missing his strongest weapon and complete fighting style. And Killer is a YC4 level character easily so that shows Zoro at his full potential can low diff a YC4 level character.
Now if Zoro at his full potential can low diff a YC4 level character that makes Pica YC3 level which Pica by his feats is at least YC3 level anyways considering his feats make Cracker look like absolute trash. So Dressrosa Zoro can mid diff a YC3 level character.
That makes Dressrosa Zoro a YC1 level character. Which again makes sense as while brutally injured and missing his strongest weapon he can fight on par with Denjiro who is easily YC2 level character. Sure Zoro was huffing and puffing but that's due to his injury, take injury away and 2 sword Zoro ~ YC2 level denjiro. So once again 3 sword Zoro who is >> 2 sword Zoro is YC1 level character.
Then Zoro got Enma power up which gives him AP and Haki boost which makes him eclipse every YC1 level character. Which would be evident by the fact that he would defeat King in a high diff battle same way he defeated Kaku. I am almost certain of that.
Issue is not that Zoro doesn't have feats, issue is you have a preconceived notion that Luffu at all times has to be stronger than Zoro when truth is there is absolutely nothing in manga suggesting that notion. That notion is what makes you make a ridiculous statement like "All of Zoros opponents are fodders".
Even Zoros minor opponent like that Punk Hazard Dragon is easily Veteran level character and likes of Monet and Hyozou are easily comparable to likes of Amande..
Hell Zoro looked good even against a top tier.
@Fujishiro
Now if Zoro at his full potential can low diff a YC4 level character that makes Pica YC3 level which Pica by his feats is at least YC3 level anyways considering his feats make Cracker look like absolute trash. So Dressrosa Zoro can mid diff a YC3 level character.
That makes Dressrosa Zoro a YC1 level character. Which again makes sense as while brutally injured and missing his strongest weapon he can fight on par with Denjiro who is easily YC2 level character. Sure Zoro was huffing and puffing but that's due to his injury, take injury away and 2 sword Zoro ~ YC2 level denjiro. So once again 3 sword Zoro who is >> 2 sword Zoro is YC1 level character.
Then Zoro got Enma power up which gives him AP and Haki boost which makes him eclipse every YC1 level character. Which would be evident by the fact that he would defeat King in a high diff battle same way he defeated Kaku. I am almost certain of that.
Issue is not that Zoro doesn't have feats, issue is you have a preconceived notion that Luffu at all times has to be stronger than Zoro when truth is there is absolutely nothing in manga suggesting that notion. That notion is what makes you make a ridiculous statement like "All of Zoros opponents are fodders".
Even Zoros minor opponent like that Punk Hazard Dragon is easily Veteran level character and likes of Monet and Hyozou are easily comparable to likes of Amande..
Hell Zoro looked good even against a top tier.
@Fujishiro
I dont arbitrarily decide it, oda did. Rayleigh said the only way for your haki to bloom is throughout intense battle. Thats it. Training can only get you so far, rayleigh said it again. So lifting rocks and training for 2 years offscreen isnt enough for him to jump several tiers. That would contradict what rayleigh said and would be boring as fuck. You would think zoro fans would love to see him have a hero's journey like luffy but god forbit that apparently, gotta breeze through everything until you get to mihawk. This is itself devalues the weight of the WSS title if all it takes is 2 years of training offscreen and thats it.
And here you go again with the DC wanking, law destroyed way more than that yet got fucking wrecked by doffy whom we know is around yc3-yc2 level, DC is not everything. Im pretty sure doffy beats pica so it stands to reason to believe the other YC can too. Monet and hyozou as welll as pica are fodder compared to the stuff luffy fought, and thats a fact.
And here you go again with the DC wanking, law destroyed way more than that yet got fucking wrecked by doffy whom we know is around yc3-yc2 level, DC is not everything. Im pretty sure doffy beats pica so it stands to reason to believe the other YC can too. Monet and hyozou as welll as pica are fodder compared to the stuff luffy fought, and thats a fact.
No he never used the word only
It is one of the ways your Haki gets stronger. And extreme battles being only way for your Haki to get stronger is easily debunked by the fact that at the time he tamed Enma, Zoros Haki wasn't strong enough to casually use Enma like it is now. He didn't have enough Ryou supplies to satisfy Enmas demand as it is used to Odens high top tier Haki. Now Zoro has Haki on that Oden level to satisfy Enmas lust for Haki.
Nothing stops Zoros Haki from already being near top tier level as he shat all over Picas Haki and Picas Haki is easily comparable to Vergos Haki.
Hell I am very confident in saying Picas Haki is easily above Luffys if we go by his Vivre Card portrayal and the fact that even likes of Hody shat all over Luffys Haki defense.
Dreasrosa Zoros Haki >> Crackers Haki >= Vergos Haki = Picas Haki >> Dressrosa Luffys Haki
It is one of the ways your Haki gets stronger. And extreme battles being only way for your Haki to get stronger is easily debunked by the fact that at the time he tamed Enma, Zoros Haki wasn't strong enough to casually use Enma like it is now. He didn't have enough Ryou supplies to satisfy Enmas demand as it is used to Odens high top tier Haki. Now Zoro has Haki on that Oden level to satisfy Enmas lust for Haki.
Nothing stops Zoros Haki from already being near top tier level as he shat all over Picas Haki and Picas Haki is easily comparable to Vergos Haki.
Hell I am very confident in saying Picas Haki is easily above Luffys if we go by his Vivre Card portrayal and the fact that even likes of Hody shat all over Luffys Haki defense.
Dreasrosa Zoros Haki >> Crackers Haki >= Vergos Haki = Picas Haki >> Dressrosa Luffys Haki
It's not about Luffy or Zoro losing. It's about not undermining what they've learned over the two years. Luffy's training was about making him ready for the New World, offered the basics to work off of. His training carried him until Katakuri where he had to delve deeper than what he's shown. But it took nothing away from his initial training, as Rayleigh made it clear he only taught as much as he could.
With Zoro, breaking a sword at this point is an insult to a swordsman. It's analogous to teaching an olympic cyclist how to ride a bike again.
And this late in the game, it would simply be poor for Zoro to once again learn how to maintain his swords. Especially since he's being projected to turn one of them black. A feat only achieved by Ryuma and Mihawk. It sends mix messages. Is Zoro's haki strong or is it not?
As for the "jumping tiers", maybe, just maybe Zoro's strength has been under-estimated this whole time. Or rather, let's look at the progression of enemies he's bested, and where the story is progressing.
Now he's had several days to train with a sword which will not only make him stronger, but was only ever tamed by Oden. Zoro is projected to turn one of his blades black, and a pre-requisite of accomplishing that is many battles. The Strawhats are heading into a war where the alliance is HEAVILY outnumbered.
Try and piece this all together.
Zoro is the most combat oriented Strawhat. He's gonna have the most fights outside only Luffy. And growth occurs through battle.
In conclusion, this is as good a time as any for Zoro to actually "jump tiers", not regress or acknowledge his current level.
With Zoro, breaking a sword at this point is an insult to a swordsman. It's analogous to teaching an olympic cyclist how to ride a bike again.
And this late in the game, it would simply be poor for Zoro to once again learn how to maintain his swords. Especially since he's being projected to turn one of them black. A feat only achieved by Ryuma and Mihawk. It sends mix messages. Is Zoro's haki strong or is it not?
As for the "jumping tiers", maybe, just maybe Zoro's strength has been under-estimated this whole time. Or rather, let's look at the progression of enemies he's bested, and where the story is progressing.
- Hody(beat him handily underwater)
- Hyouzou(trounced the only other drug boosted fishman)
- Dragon 13(who's toughness was even highlighted by Luffy)
- Monet(defeated her through sheer intimidation)
- Pica(mountain size opponent who Zoro cleanly sliced through)
- Hawkins(Killed him 3 times while only using nitoryu and no haki)
- Kamazou(secretly a WG like him and was handily defeated)
Now he's had several days to train with a sword which will not only make him stronger, but was only ever tamed by Oden. Zoro is projected to turn one of his blades black, and a pre-requisite of accomplishing that is many battles. The Strawhats are heading into a war where the alliance is HEAVILY outnumbered.
Try and piece this all together.
Zoro is the most combat oriented Strawhat. He's gonna have the most fights outside only Luffy. And growth occurs through battle.
In conclusion, this is as good a time as any for Zoro to actually "jump tiers", not regress or acknowledge his current level.
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Superior weapons? Who decided that? Was it you perhaps?
Haki blooms in the heat of battle, if you get one shot you arent blooming shit.
Ah yes, so killer missing his usual weapons and fighting style is an upgrade but zoro missing one of his usual weapons is a massive nerf. Stay biased.
How was that a low diff by the way, was it when they were at a deadlock up until the gyukimaru situation happen? I guess for you low diff is something different huh.
I stoppeed reading after you said zoro would mid diff a yc3 when luffy needed nami's help and 11 hours.
Look, i get it. Zoro had no relevant fight so his fanboys decided that the only reason for that is because he was so massively ahead of luffy that the story needed to put him in the backburner. Thats a conclusion you can get to since otherwise it would just mean oda didnt have the time to get to his story yet and thats it. But really shishio, zoro was never above luffy in the story. Ever. So what makes you think oda would just up and decide to do so now? And by such a huge marging apparently, that luffy needed several arcs and fights to catch up and surpass him? Do you think thats logical?
And lastly, again, why would you guys want zoro to be that high up already without actually seeing his journey there? Doesnt that devalue the title of WSS and zoro's dream? Thats so boring if the man is yc1+ and we saw nothing of how he got there?
Haki blooms in the heat of battle, if you get one shot you arent blooming shit.
Ah yes, so killer missing his usual weapons and fighting style is an upgrade but zoro missing one of his usual weapons is a massive nerf. Stay biased.
How was that a low diff by the way, was it when they were at a deadlock up until the gyukimaru situation happen? I guess for you low diff is something different huh.
I stoppeed reading after you said zoro would mid diff a yc3 when luffy needed nami's help and 11 hours.
Look, i get it. Zoro had no relevant fight so his fanboys decided that the only reason for that is because he was so massively ahead of luffy that the story needed to put him in the backburner. Thats a conclusion you can get to since otherwise it would just mean oda didnt have the time to get to his story yet and thats it. But really shishio, zoro was never above luffy in the story. Ever. So what makes you think oda would just up and decide to do so now? And by such a huge marging apparently, that luffy needed several arcs and fights to catch up and surpass him? Do you think thats logical?
And lastly, again, why would you guys want zoro to be that high up already without actually seeing his journey there? Doesnt that devalue the title of WSS and zoro's dream? Thats so boring if the man is yc1+ and we saw nothing of how he got there?
This argument is so bad because Law doesn't "destroy" shit. He only separates thing using his hax ability which really has no power behind it. Law cutting house is no different than Law cutting a mountain and if you have strong enough Haki than Law, you are negating that shit.
But when Zoro cuts a mountain he is doing it from his physical attributes showing top tier physical strength, top tier AP, top tier DC. It takes likes of Mihawk and Prime Garp to bust mountains with their physicals. Maybe Luffys King Kong Gun is large mountain level attack but even there I am giving Luffy benefit of the doubt.
Law also can not spam those attacks as Law said it costs him his life span. To even compare Laws feat to Zoros is pure dishonesty
But when Zoro cuts a mountain he is doing it from his physical attributes showing top tier physical strength, top tier AP, top tier DC. It takes likes of Mihawk and Prime Garp to bust mountains with their physicals. Maybe Luffys King Kong Gun is large mountain level attack but even there I am giving Luffy benefit of the doubt.
Law also can not spam those attacks as Law said it costs him his life span. To even compare Laws feat to Zoros is pure dishonesty
We'll just agree to disagree then, i believe zoro right now with enma training is solid yc3 level, the same way luffy was before fighting kat. Thats allready a huge boost for someone who has 0 feats to put him there. He will fight king in an extreme diff fight ala luff/kat and become solid yc1 by the end of the arc. That makes more sense than anything else i read here. And it would be less boring and insulting to zoro's journey imo.
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Does pica beat marco?
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Does pica beat marco?