On this topic, one of my fav Japanese one piece reviewers has been speculating for a while now that Kiku is the traitor and she further built on her theory recently, bringing up something I thought was really interesting, so I'll share it with you guys & girls ^^
In Chapter 959, Tsuru said the following:
In Chapter 921, Kiku said this to Kinemon:
I don't know about you guys, but there's an inconsistency here. In the first panel, Tsuru stated that she had met Kikunojo again, so it's very likely that Kiku revealed her identity to Tsuru, so why did she tell Kinemon that Tsuru doesn't know who she is?
Some additional points she's made on Kiku being the traitor across her speculation videos are:
1. the fact that Jack was able to find his way to Zou
- Considering Zou is always moving, it'd be impossible to get to it without having one of the scabbards vivre cards. In which case Jack must have gotten Raizou's vivre card from one of the 4 that time traveled, as they were only ones that knew for certain that the dead scabbards were alive. That said, considering Raizou, Kin, and Kanjuro left Wano, it's hard to imagine that one of they somehow returned back to wano and handed one of their vivre cards to the enemy so the prime suspect can only be one person. Kiku, who was left on Wano to gather information.
2. Kiku's presence in Okobore town
Kiku was originally left behind on Wano to gather information, so said youtuber speculated that it's a bit odd that she was in Okobore town and not the capital as it makes more sense for her to be gathering information in the capital. Moreover it was said that Kiku was in Okobore town for about a month, which makes it all the more strange, so she speculated that if we assume that Kiku is part of the enemy ranks, she would've known Doffy was defeated and that Kin and the others were probably heading towards Wano, so decided to stick by Tsuru to gather information.
3. the fact that Kiku wasn't one of the original scabbards
- if y'all remember when Luffy used Conqueror's Haki on Wano, whilst he and the others were going to save Tama, Kiku was surprised and couldn't comprehend what happened till it was explained to her. In contrast, when Shutenmaru saw Luffy use Conqueror's Haki, he stated that Luffy uses the same kinda Haki as Oden, so there's a stack discrepancy there with regards to how much Kiku actually knew about Oden in comparison to older members like Shutemaru, so she suspects that Kiku only joined the scabbards fairly recently
Dont thibk its asura douji. Makes no sense since he was rebelling against kaido forever and kaido wanted him for long time.
Shinobu is a good thought as well but i feel the traitor was there since minka saga .
It still boils down to few nemesis who were there.
Who gave tip off to jack that raizo was in wano ?
I do believe it has to be kanjuro. I am pretty sure kanjuro did say they lost raizo on the sea. So who had vivre card of raizo in first place?
We know kanjuro was under doffy . Doffy knew about info of samurais .
In dressrossa kinemon had the bounty to be captured again nothing on kanjuro. Isnt kanjuro important man for beast pirates.
I think the idea of traitor was planted from the time there was time leap. Kaido probably got the news 20 years ago momo and other were about to sent 20 years ahead of time.
Orochi was well prepared for the 20th year. He knew something will happen with time.
How did you come to that conclusion? If anything, the traitor is loyal to Orochi and not Kaido.
Afterall, it is Orochi who is receiving Intel from the traitor. Orochi even said that he will handle this without involving Kaido. And remember, Orochi can command the SMILE users (e.g. Kamazou) too. Not to mention the fact that Kyoshiro, who is Orochi's subordinate, can call Queen to send his people for Kyoshiro's cause.
In fact, it seems that none of the plans ever reached anybody except Orochi. So, the traitor is loyal to Orochi.
Then how come orochi doesnt know about traitor . I just dont see anyone really obeying him if they are threatened or see him as a useful tool.
I do think the traitor motivation is really different. He is either probably doing it believing it for greater good like wano should remain closed.
I am pretty sure odens policy of opening border may have rubbed off people where wano had this old law for long time.
Point is about the traitor is probably brainwashed in beliving the country should be closed . There has to be history why wano was closed off it has to do with void century and ryuma stuff. Maybe we will get to know root about wano society.
I am certain sure there are people who didnt like oden opening wano border other than orochis misruling they kind of alligned with him when he supported wano closed border.
The traitor is politically motivated i believe it has to be a samurai who is a traitor .
There is a theme of deception around Kiku
-first of all she hides as a demure woman. Then she reveals in the fight with Urashima that she's actually a very capable fighter
-then she's not even a woman by birth, but is actually a man. (This isn't an attempt to offend anyone or being transphobic or anything, but it is another example of her pulling the wool over people she eyes)
-wears a mask when it comes to fighting, mask she obviously being signs of a deceiver
I'm really not set either way on who the traitor is, but she's a good shout I feel.
There is a theme of deception around Kiku
-first of all she hides as a demure woman. Then she reveals in the fight with Urashima that she's actually a very capable fighter
-then she's not even a woman by birth, but is actually a man. (This isn't an attempt to offend anyone or being transphobic or anything, but it is another example of her pulling the wool over people she eyes)
-wears a mask when it comes to fighting, mask she obviously being signs of a deceiver
I'm really not set either way on who the traitor is, but she's a good shout I feel.
I certainly believe it had to be one of the scabbard lol. Will maje a nice drama.
I am pretty sure odens motivation of opening wano border might have not got good reaction with everyone.
I am pretty sure many samurais didnt like oden views as well.
Point is we need to get good reason why samurais want wano border closed ? I am pretty sure one of the scabbard probably didnt like oden with this opinion.
The vivre card would then on zou still point to his location on zou, hence jack and his troops fighting the minks and torturing them wouldnt make much sense if they could just follow the vivre card.
Though i guess my point about this would mostly be that it wouldnt be raizous vivre card they have
That's a strong possibility. I'm also of the opinion that the traitor's reason for betrayal isn't going to outright black and white but rather in the grey area. So yh, your speculation about the traitor being against Wano opening it's borders might just turn out to be accurate ^^.
That's a strong possibility. I'm also of the opinion that the traitor's reason for betrayal isn't going to outright black and white but rather in the grey area. So yh, your speculation about the traitor being against Wano opening it's borders might just turn out to be accurate ^^.
In the raws Tsuru actually says 'I was surprised when I saw kikunojo again', so you do have a point to be fair but I don't know man. Tsuru would have to have a pretty damn good sense of observation to have noticed Kiku was Kikunojo, especially if consider that Kiku most likely approached Tsuru disguised as a woman to serve under her. In the case that she Kiku didn't divulge her identity to Tsuru.
The vivre card would then on zou still point to his location on zou, hence jack and his troops fighting the minks and torturing them wouldnt make much sense if they could just follow the vivre card.
Though i guess my point about this would mostly be that it wouldnt be raizous vivre card they have
Hmmn...Interesting ^^. Still Jack is a mad man lolz so I don't think him torturing the minks simply coz they opposed him is an oddity Plus, Jack had to leave Zou suddenly to get Doffy back, so there's an argument for him potentially not having had enough time to use Raizou's vivre card to pinpoint his location after he got rid of the minks. However, he left a few of his subordinates on Zou, so you'd think that task would've been delegated to them. So yh that's a bit odd and a good counter argument to the vivre card argument ^^.
It's interesting though that Jack specifically asked for Raizou and not Kinemon or Kanjuro, so I think that implies that the person Jack got information from most likely had a handle on where all the 3 were. Raizou being on Zou and the other two having left Zou. Which brings up the question of whether there is indeed a Mink Traitor. I still think Jack had to have someon's vivre card to have made it to Zou, but the question now is who, as you make a good point of it prolly not being Raizou's.
Personally I think there's gonna be more than one traitor and my candidates are Neko & Kiku. I know folks are strongly against Neko being a traitor...lol z but it's what it is:p
On this topic, one of my fav Japanese one piece reviewers has been speculating for a while now that Kiku is the traitor and she further built on her theory recently, bringing up something I thought was really interesting, so I'll share it with you guys & girls ^^
In Chapter 959, Tsuru said the following:
In Chapter 921, Kiku said this to Kinemon:
I don't know about you guys, but there's an inconsistency here. In the first panel, Tsuru stated that she had met Kikunojo again, so it's very likely that Kiku revealed her identity to Tsuru, so why did she tell Kinemon that Tsuru doesn't know who she is?
Said, YouTuber speculated that Kiku might have purposely gotten close to Tsuru to get some kinda information on Kinemon.
In addition, this was something I personally thought off after watching her video but if y'all take a look at this:
When Kaidou appeared in Okobore town, Kin attempted to go an save his wife, but then Kiku stopped him from meeting her and said she would go and save her instead. I personally thought that was a bit suspicious after watching her video.
Also Oda's design for Kin and Kiku is very interesting. Kiku seems to be Kin's disciple and both have conflicting epithets (i.e. fire for Kin and Snow for Kiku ) so it'd be pretty interesting if Kiku does end up the traitor given she has a deep connection with Kin.
Some additional points she's made on Kiku being the traitor across her speculation videos are:
1. the fact that Jack was able to find his way to Zou
- Considering Zou is always moving, it'd be impossible to get to it without having one of the scabbards vivre cards. In which case Jack must have gotten Raizou's vivre card from one of the 4 that time traveled, as they were only ones that knew for certain that the dead scabbards were alive. That said, considering Raizou, Kin, and Kanjuro left Wano, it's hard to imagine that one of they somehow returned back to wano and handed one of their vivre cards to the enemy so the prime suspect can only be one person. Kiku, who was left on Wano to gather information.
2. Kiku's presence in Okobore town
Kiku was originally left behind on Wano to gather information, so said youtuber speculated that it's a bit odd that she was in Okobore town and not the capital as it makes more sense for her to be gathering information in the capital. Moreover it was said that Kiku was in Okobore town for about a month, which makes it all the more strange, so she speculated that if we assume that Kiku is part of the enemy ranks, she would've known Doffy was defeated and that Kin and the others were probably heading towards Wano, so decided to stick by Tsuru to gather information.
3. the fact that Kiku wasn't one of the original scabbards
- if y'all remember when Luffy used Conqueror's Haki on Wano, whilst he and the others were going to save Tama, Kiku was surprised and couldn't comprehend what happened till it was explained to her. In contrast, when Shutenmaru saw Luffy use Conqueror's Haki, he stated that Luffy uses the same kinda Haki as Oden, so there's a stack discrepancy there with regards to how much Kiku actually knew about Oden in comparison to older members like Shutemaru, so she suspects that Kiku only joined the scabbards fairly recently
4. the fact that Kiku's face was covered when we got a close up of all the scabbards reactions when they were valiantly sailing to Onigashima in chapter 959.
If any of you guys or girls liked this theory, please be sure to give her videos a like to show your appreciation. I've linked them below ^^
A very good theory by her (and addition by you). Now, my question is this: is Kiku is Scabbard? If she is, then I don't understand why Orochi has hard time believing that scabbards if Kiku is the one providing info?
In the raws Tsuru actually says 'I was surprised when I saw kikunojo again', so you do have a point to be fair but I don't know man. Tsuru would have to have a pretty damn good sense of observation to have noticed Kiku was Kikunojo, especially if consider that Kiku most likely approached Tsuru disguised as a woman to serve under her. In the case that she Kiku didn't divulge her identity to Tsuru.
I think it shouldn't be hard for Tsuru to recognize Kiku at all. I mean Kiku hasn't aged a day. In fact, it would be harder for Kiku to recognize Tsuru.
A very good theory by her (and addition by you). Now, my question is this: is Kiku is Scabbard? If she is, then I don't understand why Orochi has hard time believing that scabbards if Kiku is the one providing info?
Thanks ^^ and yh that's a good point as if Kiku was Orochi's informant, she'd be living proof that the
scabbards did indeed travel 20 years into the future and he'd know for certain that they are back. However, it could be that Kiku betrayed the scabbards for her own grand reasons like @Kingslayer has mentioned and is sending him information anonymously or it could be that the traitor is under Kaidou and not Orochi. We already have a use case of Monet infiltrating Dressrosa's royal family prior to the Donxquiote family's invasion so Kaidou could have potentially planted Kiku under Oden.
A very good theory by her (and addition by you). Now, my question is this: is Kiku is Scabbard? If she is, then I don't understand why Orochi has hard time believing that scabbards if Kiku is the one providing info?
I was under the impression that Orochi knows the traitor. What makes you say that Orochi doesn't know about the traitor?
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I think it shouldn't be hard for Tsuru to recognize Kiku at all. I mean Kiku hasn't aged a day. In fact, it would be harder for Kiku to recognize Tsuru.
Thanks ^^ and yh that's a good point as if Kiku was Orochi's informant, she'd be living proof that the
scabbards did indeed travel 20 years into the future and he'd know for certain that they are back. However, it could be that Kiku betrayed the scabbards for her own grand reasons like @Kingslayer has mentioned and is sending him information anonymously or it could be that the traitor is under Kaidou and not Orochi. We already have a use case of Monet infiltrating Dressrosa's royal family prior to the Donxquiote family's invasion so Kaidou could have potentially planted Kiku under Oden.
Its hard to see kiku is traitor . Ya we hardly know anything about her.
Was izo prev scabbard by chance. Its probable she was probably planted by kaido /orochi to spy on oden or kiku has her own motivation and is spoiling the alliance chance because she wants wano to be closed country rather than it becomes open.
I however still believe it has to be kanjuro because we need explanation on raizos vivre card. How did jack know raizo was in zou ? Who leaked it ?
There is no Raizo's vive card otherwise Jack would have gone straight to Road Poneglyph following Raizo's vive card. He was really determined to find Raizo, he would have gone there instead of wasting 5 days fighting the Minks.
IMO it's a Mink that leaked it. Jack was completly sure there is Raizo in Zou, only Raizo (not Kinemon or Kanjuro and even them are not 100% sure if Raizo reached Zou if I remember well) so in conclusion it's a Mink. Only Minks know for sure Raizo reached Zou. But it's a Mink that doesn't know where Raizo was chained otherwise he would have tell Jack where Raizo is on the island. I don't think all the Minks know where the Road Poneglyph is hidden.
There is also wild Den den mushis in Zou. The traitor can probably had one that work and communicate with Wano (perhaps he also send a Vive Card of the island with some birds or seagull ? I just speculate).
I think it's a Mink. It can't be Kanjuro with Orochi words last chapter. And Kanjuro wasn't sure if Raizo was in Zou, and he doesn't have a Vive Card of the phantom Island.
In the raws Tsuru actually says 'I was surprised when I saw kikunojo again', so you do have a point to be fair but I don't know man. Tsuru would have to have a pretty damn good sense of observation to have noticed Kiku was Kikunojo, especially if consider that Kiku most likely approached Tsuru disguised as a woman to serve under her. In the case that she Kiku didn't divulge her identity to Tsuru.
There were random samurai who were waiting for the Kozuki family to return after 20 years at Oden Castle - lots of people were holding out hope, thinking that Toki's prophecy was true. Tsuru was a loyalist who was married to one of the Scabbards, it's not too crazy that she was astute enough to figure out that a person who appeared after the 20 years (like in the prophecy) bearing an incredibly similar name to one of the Scabbards was one of the Scabbards, but played dumb for the sake of the audience (and to keep Kiku's cover intact)
A very good theory by her (and addition by you). Now, my question is this: is Kiku is Scabbard? If she is, then I don't understand why Orochi has hard time believing that scabbards if Kiku is the one providing info?
There is no Raizo's vive card otherwise Jack would have gone straight to Road Poneglyph following Raizo's vive card. He was really determined to find Raizo, he would have gone there instead of wasting 5 days fighting the Minks.
IMO it's a Mink that leaked it. Jack was completly sure there is Raizo in Zou, only Raizo (not Kinemon or Kanjuro and even them are not 100% sure if Raizo reached Zou if I remember well) so in conclusion it's a Mink. Only Minks know for sure Raizo reached Zou. But it's a Mink that doesn't know where Raizo was chained otherwise he would have tell Jack where Raizo is on the island. I don't think all the Minks know where the Road Poneglyph is hidden.
There is also wild Den den mushis in Zou. The traitor can probably had one that work and communicate with Wano (perhaps he also send a Vive Card of the island with some birds or seagull ? I just speculate).
I think it's a Mink. It can't be Kanjuro with Orochi words last chapter. And Kanjuro wasn't sure if Raizo was in Zou, and he doesn't have a Vive Card of the phantom Island.
This has been one of the most enjoyable threads in this forum as people have mostly been presenting evidences and having civil discussions.
But now, I want to deviate from the evidence-presentation for a little bit. Basically I want to discuss what the traitor's endgame could be.
Note: All of it is headcanon, no need to take seriously.
This traitor concept was first brought forward in Zou. Which means Oda already planned to include a traitor into the mix before Zou. Zou happened a long time ago and I don't think Oda had details of Wano in mind when he was drawing Zou. So, he only had basic concepts of the traitor's purpose in the story (similar to how Oda already had planned the time-travel thing by Zou).
Now, let us ask if the traitor has served that purpose. Some will say yes. The traitor has wrecked every plan the Straw Hats has had. But these plans are all details that Oda probably didn't think of at Zou. Oda probably had some vague purpose attributed to him/her at that point. One could say that Oda's vague purpose was to have the traitor wreck the alliance's plan, but I think that's not it. I think when Oda brought the traitor concept, he wanted him/her play a role in some form of tragedy to give the alliance ultimate grief.
Now, in the last chapter, we saw Kin'emon get a lot of focus. Almost as much as Oden. I think Kin'emon is gonna get more focus as the flashback goes on. Basically, the flashback will not only tell the tales of Oden but also that of Kin'emon. I think that is a big red flag that Kin'emon may be killed in the war.
I think the traitor's endgame is that he/she will Kin'emon at the heat of the battle. That will be the tragedy that ends Act 3. Redemption is already a difficult option for the traitor as he/she has already caused death (Yasuie). So, if redemption is not possible, then the only way is repulsion and I think traitor doing something repulsive is his/her endgame as far as Oda is concerned with the traitor business. Once the did is done, the Scabbards can deal with the traitors like a normal enemy.
My guess for the traitors motivations is that they don't believe that Wano should open its borders.
This will be based on the occasion where Moria stole Ryuma and Shusui. A year before Oden's death, it gives a reason for there to be doubt over Oden's path forward. Outsiders came in, stole their greatest treasures. It's been said (since Dressrosa mind you) that this utterly traumatised and Wano, and led to their eventual ruin.
So, the traitor blames Oden for this. Orochi (who we know was once some way an associate of Oden who apparently owed him everything he had) starts pouring poison into the eventual traitors ears. Tells him that Oden's attempts to revoke isolationism will lead to the end of Wano. opening the borders. Maybe Wano also suffered when Oden was sailing around with Roger, who knows. Orochi tells the traitor of a powerful ally (Kaido) who, although an outsider, will protect Wano from the rest of the world. Oden is standing in the way of that peace.
And then tragedy, betrayal, so on and so forth. I do not think the traitor will be some evil cackling villain. I think the betrayal of Oden will have torn them up inside, that they harbour a great deal of self loathing for it, and the state of Wano, but still believe that open borders will be even worse.
Don't know who it'll be though. Well, I'm pretty sure it's a Scabbard because that's the betrayal that'll have the most effect. Especially since we're about to get a bumper flashback of Oden gathering the Scabbards. We'll get to know them, see them all be friends, so the betrayal will cut even more. Oda will want it to feel like Water 7, the Strawhats splintering on each other.
Those who stayed
Ashura Doji
Denjiro
Kawamatsu
Neko
Inu
-The first goal of the time jumpers was to go to Zou to meet up with the Dukes, implying this was the plan 20 years ago.
-Okiku chooses to stay behind while the rest went to Zou
-Jack was sure Raizo was on Zou but didnt have his card
Out of the scabbards, Okiku is the #1 suspect. Ashura, Kawamatsu, Kinemon, Raizou and the Dukes are already proven innocent. All that's left is Kanjuro and Denjiro.
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lolz)
