General & Others Luffys dream > Zoros dream? dream on!
- Thread starter trav
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Hmm didn't expected such a long reply 
But sure i'd answer
But sure i'd answer
This was the gist of it. We are talking about strength, not infamy, reputation or whatever. So the key thing to note here is that it wouldn't have made him any stronger than he was.
I assumed as much.
Could is the key word here. There are too many assumptions in play, until we see it. Oden might have had help, Kaido might have had help, Kaido wasn't as strong back then as he is now.
That would be very nice. Unfortunately, that's not the case. Rerun Luffy's last major battles, take out the plot armor, PIS and CIS, and he loses still, as he should have in the first instance. DR Mingo vs DR Luffy without outside interference and factors results in Mingo's victory. The difference between pre GK Doffy and post GK Doffy is noticeable.
Post GK Mingo couldn't keep up with Luffy's g2
whilst pre GK Doffy was easily reacting to g2/g3 Luffy.
The difference as I've said is noticeable. Even though Mingo stitched himself up, it affected him, so much that the first thing he does when he is up is reapplying his patch
While Mingo may not be able to best G4 Luffy in CQC he'd be able to dodge more hits, as illustrated above. Plus if Mingo plays it smart he can keep Luffy at bay using his awakening. With awakening pestering Luffy, Mingo can potentially attack Luffy from the sides or back and aim for the head.
Moreover, CIS/PIS/ and plot armor restricted, Doffy takes the W here. Doffy, whilst critically injured (hit with GK, injection shot, and counter shock), survived one round of G4. Luffy could barely keep his eyes opened and was exhausted by that, so much that Gyats had to carry him around.
Good luck trying to constantly run away and hide during the 10 minutes in which he lacks haki, from a guy who can turn the entire surroundings into strings.
Before you try to bring up that SBS, here is the translation. Oda says Luffy would need to tough it out.
Tough it out- to endure what's coming.
Without the plot armor, the ability to use haki, or the energy to constantly keep his eyes open, and without the gladiators stalling Doflamingo, Mingo catches up to Luffy and kills him.
Rerun the Dogtooth fight as well. Even gift Luffy FS, he still loses.
Dogtooth utterly dominated g2/g3 Luffy
If it weren't for the plot armor here, Luffy would have died then and there. Dogtooth should have finished him then.
Dogtooth toyed with Boundman the moment he got his composure back.
No PIS involved so forget about Dogtooth stabbing himself, or suddenly letting go of Mogura.
He won't be doing this. He won't allow Luffy to power up like he did earlier, he won't allow Luffy to just lay down on the floor.
It took Dogtooth a few seconds to get adjusted to snakeman and counter it
Dogtooth then dances around Snakeman attacks, manages to hit Luffy and put him down first
Even with FS, Luffy loses against Dogtooth. Therefore, no, the same logic does not apply to Luffy. The amount of plot armor, PIS and CIS present in Luffy's battles is evident and it will always be there.
Sure, let's check them.
I am sorry, but no. It is very important. As it shows one doesn't necessarily need to stand atop all to be the PK.
And Luffy was once EB level. The point is in when he becomes PK. When Roger was PK, he ostensibly was weaker than WB, the current Yonko were all youngsters and far from what they are now.
Not only WB. Roger, similarly to Luffy was gifted allies and had luck. It's exactly the same thing Mihawk notes about Luffy. That's what makes him dangerous.
I can agree that WB and Roger were tremendously strong. I am disputing the difference. PK Luffy and Teach won't be, as nothing points to it, capable of low/mid diffing other top tiers. Roger and WB weren't capable of it. By the time Luffy fights Teach, they should acquire that level, the so called PK level, however, after that Luffy needs to take on the WG as well. Barring Imu, since he is a complete unknown, that leaves the Admirals, CP0, and maybe Gorosei to fight from what we know so far. The WG's ultimate military force are the Admirals.
Akainu has apt foreshadowing of being an opponent for EoS Luffy, having killed his brother in front of him, left an aching scar, that throbs whenever Akainu is mentioned and causes anxiety on the behalf of Luffy. Scarring Luffy not only physically but also mentally.
Compare Luffy ignoring the talk about BB, and not giving a damn about it
That's what we have so far. All of the huge threats we know of so far, were either youngsters, friends with Roger, or not interested. The only other rivals, but not rivals for the PK throne, were the marines, specifically Garp, whom I remember you putting below Roger as well. By the time Roger became PK, he either had an equal, or was even slightly weaker than him, hence even agreeing with your assumption that Garp was below Roger, the disease should logically lower Roger, and would make Garp as strong as him as well. So that's at least two equals, with one possibly being even stronger. What stops WB from growing in power? Nothing. So saying that Roger at his peak before getting sick was equal to WB doesn't translate to WB remaining stagnant and not being able to become more powerful.
I am not disputing Roger wasn't strong. I am aware of what Shiki thought. Shiki being unable to win against Roger led him to believe Roger was so strong none could defeat him. It stems from arrogance.
Doubtful, as the current Yonko are portrayed better and I'll go in detail in the next few rows.
Similarly to MF war, the marines were held back by fighting on their own territory without the luxury of letting loose. A more effective way to resolve the situation and lessen the damage was to tag team him. Shiki also possesses a df with the power to destroy things easily. The battle lasted long due to Garp and Sengoku being unable to utilize their high end moves, whilst Shiki possessed a destructive df.
He was mentioned before the bounty reveals started. And he was grouped in with the likes of Captain John, who was a zombie in Moriah's crew, Wang Zhi (Ou Choku), who we have only heard that one time.
The yonko were also highlighted by having their silhouettes and them being shown
Moreover, one of the Yonko is hailed as the supposed WSC, now.
Shanks had a scuffle with Kaido
That's insulting.
That's what I remarked, and yet they were placed on a higher pedestal compared to Shiki.
But has grown in power much since then, as noted in the panel here.
At his peak, but what when becoming the PK, as I've noted above? Moreover, was that WB's peak as well?
We know that the Yonko haven't seen each other in a long time, as noted by Linlin when meeting Kaido, and WB when Shanks appeared. He was asking him about his missing arm, something that took place 12 years ago. So, territorial clashes thus mean their crews involved in skirmishes probably.
Again I am not arguing that. I am arguing what the difference between them is, and how you don't have to be the strongest, even the PK had equals as illustrated above, to be the PK. How big of a difference is between them, and what makes a PK is what I am talking about. Also, two of the Yonko, WB and Shanks, had no interest in becoming the PK, two seemingly had, thus they balanced each other.
Kaido wasn't aiming at his seat, he was looking for a fight. That's what Kaido does. That's why he went out to get to WB. Kaido challenges them, and relishes an opportunity for battle, seeking a way to die, supposedly.
BB, as you pointed out, was looking up to WB and would thus want to replace him, and that's exactly what he did. Again, I feel like we are going into circles.
Due to WB's power, as in his df power, and hype before the war. That's what's highlighted. The world may end and WB supposedly possesses that power and the ability to do that. However we know what the marines planned.
The plan was for the warlords to fight the WBP. The Warlords were located at the front ready to engage the WBP. They were going to be the force attacking them.
Doflamingo even hyped up the war as such.
Admirals were tasked with protecting the execution platform.
The plan was for the Admirals to guard the platform while the Warlords engage the WBP in battle. Of course that changed since the Warlords were dicking around.
Akainu even comments on it.
The Navy gathered all of them to ensure a clear victory with the fewest possible losses, and the least damage possible. They didn't need all of them, and we even saw that they were restricted due to home turf, and due to the warlords not caring about it. Later factors, such as the Impel Down prisoners joining, influenced it as well. All in all, the preparations from the Navy were excessive, as any organization on its home turf would do, to cut back on the losses and secure a victory.
The Admirals were restricted due to the battle taking place in MF, aka their home turf. Akainu was trying to preserve the island and the town.
He mentions it twice.
This is what happens when unrestricted Admirals can fight fully.
All the Admirals were fighting WB perfectly fine.
Akainu melted half of his face even though he was attacked from behind with a surprise attack.
And yet he could still continue, as evident here and explained
What's also interesting to note is that he first thing Akainu did was build a tunnel underground to avoid unnecessary battles, and went right back to chasing Luffy. Whitebeard was literally not even the second thing on Akainu's mind. He was an annoyance just like everyone else, keeping him from getting to Luffy. Wb himself and Akainu stated MF is WB's place of death. Akainu didn't have WB on his mind, he was busy trying to exterminate the two future threats, Luffy and Ace.
Akainu's sole focus was on getting rid of the threats of the future, WB was just an annoyance, like anyone else, in his way to Luffy and Ace.
Aokiji morphed around WB's attack, and was preparing an attack from close distance that had to be stopped by Jozu.
WB tried to prevent Kizaru from attacking Luffy, with Kizaru not even knowing WB was there, and yet WB did nothing to Kizaru. Kizaru then pinned his bisento down, using one leg, and shot a hole in WB.
None of them had a problem with WB in duels. The war when started was never debatable. The outcome of the war was never questionable.
I feel like we are talking past each other. I've shown how Roger became PK and that it had nothing to do with his strength, and thus, no matter how unlikely, the PK does not have to be the strongest. Moreover, the canon PK, as illustrated above, when he became PK, had at least some equals, and was ostensibly weaker than one person. I am talking about the difference between them, and that being the PK does not make you stronger than anyone else, nor does it enable you to neg/low or mid diff other top tiers, nor does it make you untouchable. That's my point.
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It gave me a big headache while reading that already debunked arguments in that single post. 
Downplays Luffy's victories...
And Luffy is giving a bigger reaction to Akainu's victory against Aokiji, not to Akainu's name, Aokiji is the guy that Luffy actually knows, the guy that he spared his life before entering to Water 7, he knows Aokiji was probably the best choice for the marines, of course he would be shaken when he hears that Aokiji lost the most important fight of his life to Akainu.... That was Luffy's reaction for, Akainu's victory over Aokiji, Luffy would've wanted to see Aokiji as victor.
That's really a ridiculous argument. Jinbe didn't mention about marco and WB pirates situation yet there, and there was no reason for Luffy to think about BB's Yonko status when Jinbe explains what happened in the new world. Luffy probably knew Blackbeard would be reach at the top, there is no surprise at there. When they said that BB defeated marco, Luffy also cared about that a lot. When Luffy hears about marco's defeat, he cared about it and he cursed at Blackbeard;
And no mention of WB's illness and his insane downgrade due to heart attacks in MF as usual, and it mentions about WB hitting Akainu from behind but forgets that Akainu hit WB when WB was dropping his guard due to having an heart attack, WB was so weakened that even his underlings marco and jozu had to save WB twice in that war, not even once.
And fighting in MF was their choosing, if they actually believed that the Admirals would have a big advantage in a different location since they wouldn't needed to worry about destroying the location, then they would change the execution platform's location and fight all they want in a different place. Fighting in MF gave the marines a huge strategic advantage (mostly because of the traps that they prepared before) to the marines, it's not the other way around, Lmao.
Downplays Luffy's victories...And Luffy is giving a bigger reaction to Akainu's victory against Aokiji, not to Akainu's name, Aokiji is the guy that Luffy actually knows, the guy that he spared his life before entering to Water 7, he knows Aokiji was probably the best choice for the marines, of course he would be shaken when he hears that Aokiji lost the most important fight of his life to Akainu.... That was Luffy's reaction for, Akainu's victory over Aokiji, Luffy would've wanted to see Aokiji as victor.
That's really a ridiculous argument. Jinbe didn't mention about marco and WB pirates situation yet there, and there was no reason for Luffy to think about BB's Yonko status when Jinbe explains what happened in the new world. Luffy probably knew Blackbeard would be reach at the top, there is no surprise at there. When they said that BB defeated marco, Luffy also cared about that a lot. When Luffy hears about marco's defeat, he cared about it and he cursed at Blackbeard;
And no mention of WB's illness and his insane downgrade due to heart attacks in MF as usual, and it mentions about WB hitting Akainu from behind but forgets that Akainu hit WB when WB was dropping his guard due to having an heart attack, WB was so weakened that even his underlings marco and jozu had to save WB twice in that war, not even once.
And fighting in MF was their choosing, if they actually believed that the Admirals would have a big advantage in a different location since they wouldn't needed to worry about destroying the location, then they would change the execution platform's location and fight all they want in a different place. Fighting in MF gave the marines a huge strategic advantage (mostly because of the traps that they prepared before) to the marines, it's not the other way around, Lmao.
mihawk acknowledges luffy's dream is tougher enough said
I would say tho , zoro's is a lot more individual .
luffy's might need some allies as well as his own strength to do it, but he got all that in the bag. pk simply has more rivals than the wss . end of story.
if eos zoro is beating mihawk
best believe luffy is beating him too
stop cappin
luffy's goal is so prestigious he had someone that is in the world strongest category and not the captain of the crew.
I would say tho , zoro's is a lot more individual .
luffy's might need some allies as well as his own strength to do it, but he got all that in the bag. pk simply has more rivals than the wss . end of story.
Post automatically merged:
if eos zoro is beating mihawk
best believe luffy is beating him too
stop cappin
Post automatically merged:
luffy's goal is so prestigious he had someone that is in the world strongest category and not the captain of the crew.
S
Sigh....in manga called OP, PK is the one who has everything wealth, fame and power....
Chinjao statement about PK...."You think you can conquer seas by defeating admirals and yonkos and become PK?"
Luffy..."I have to defeat admirals and yonkos to become PK"
Shiki...."The wall (Roger) before us was gone"
Doflamingo speech..."rulers of the sea after PK? He didn't make any note about WSC/WSM/WSS"....
In the manga itself stated
Roger (PK) = WSM > WSS
Even when Zoro becomes WSS, he will be mostly recognized as a RHM of PK Luffy not the other way around....
Being WSS is the bare minimum of one should have while being the RHM of PK.....isn't it what Luffy said in the Zoro's introduction chapter....
Chinjao statement about PK...."You think you can conquer seas by defeating admirals and yonkos and become PK?"
Luffy..."I have to defeat admirals and yonkos to become PK"
Shiki...."The wall (Roger) before us was gone"
Doflamingo speech..."rulers of the sea after PK? He didn't make any note about WSC/WSM/WSS"....
In the manga itself stated
Roger (PK) = WSM > WSS
Even when Zoro becomes WSS, he will be mostly recognized as a RHM of PK Luffy not the other way around....
Being WSS is the bare minimum of one should have while being the RHM of PK.....isn't it what Luffy said in the Zoro's introduction chapter....
Sigh....in manga called OP, PK is the one who has everything wealth, fame and power....
Chinjao statement about PK...."You think you can conquer seas by defeating admirals and yonkos and become PK?"
Luffy..."I have to defeat admirals and yonkos to become PK"
Shiki...."The wall (Roger) before us was gone"
Doflamingo speech..."rulers of the sea after PK? He didn't make any note about WSC/WSM/WSS"....
In the manga itself stated
Roger (PK) = WSM > WSS
Even when Zoro becomes WSS, he will be mostly recognized as a RHM of PK Luffy not the other way around....
Being WSS is the bare minimum of one should have while being the RHM of PK.....isn't it what Luffy said in the Zoro's introduction chapter....
Chinjao statement about PK...."You think you can conquer seas by defeating admirals and yonkos and become PK?"
Luffy..."I have to defeat admirals and yonkos to become PK"
Shiki...."The wall (Roger) before us was gone"
Doflamingo speech..."rulers of the sea after PK? He didn't make any note about WSC/WSM/WSS"....
In the manga itself stated
Roger (PK) = WSM > WSS
Even when Zoro becomes WSS, he will be mostly recognized as a RHM of PK Luffy not the other way around....
Being WSS is the bare minimum of one should have while being the RHM of PK.....isn't it what Luffy said in the Zoro's introduction chapter....
but its definitely shows just how high the pk title is if his right hand is also alegit world strongest at x category.